Bangladesh Air Force delivery

[Contrarian]

Well i dont agree that because of the Soviet Doctrine, they did not produce weapons of the same sophistication, frankly the idea to me is ludicrous. Now i say, if the RCS of Su 27/30 it says is 10m2. Then i would say reduce that by a considerable amount to get the RCS of an Su-30MKI. First of all there is a HUGE difference between the Su-27 and a Su-30 and a HUGE gap between Su-30 and Su-30MKI. So you make the calculations.

Now Pakistan maynot be simply waiting, but you tell me.
What fighter do they plan to procure thats superior to their F-16 blk 52? None. blk 52 is going to be the pride of their AF for a long time to come, J-10 is not near enough blk 52, whereas india has plans for MiG 35MKI, or maybe F-18. On top of that money is being funded for T-50. Key, if you have been researching properly, you will not say that its a paper project, and god knows when it will be out.

MiG 35/F-18 look most certain to add on the MKI's abilities, apart from the LCA that will be inducted in mass numbers to match JF-17. Though we are only talking about the creamy planes in the respective inventories. And apart from the MKI itself getting upgraded.

 

[Keysersoze]

I m agree with you mate!
MKI only have the advantage ot TVC in close combat over F-16 but in BVR combat, it will be a tough fight. can you tell me the RCS of JF-17??

Sorry mate I have nothing to work on.............If I had a JF-17 next to something then it might be possible......However I doubt it would be huge (It is a light fighter) possibly 1~3m^2

 

[Keysersoze]

Well i dont agree that because of the Soviet Doctrine, they did not produce weapons of the same sophistication, frankly the idea to me is ludicrous. Now i say, if the RCS of Su 27/30 it says is 10m2. Then i would say reduce that by a considerable amount to get the RCS of an Su-30MKI. First of all there is a HUGE difference between the Su-27 and a Su-30 and a HUGE gap between Su-30 and Su-30MKI. So you make the calculations.

Now Pakistan maynot be simply waiting, but you tell me.
What fighter do they plan to procure thats superior to their F-16 blk 52? None. blk 52 is going to be the pride of their AF for a long time to come, J-10 is not near enough blk 52, whereas india has plans for MiG 35MKI, or maybe F-18. On top of that money is being funded for T-50. Key, if you have been researching properly, you will not say that its a paper project, and god knows when it will be out.

MiG 35/F-18 look most certain to add on the MKI's abilities, apart from the LCA that will be inducted in mass numbers to match JF-17. Though we are only talking about the creamy planes in the respective inventories. And apart from the MKI itself getting upgraded.

Ok point one would be that the doctrine would DEFINITELY mold the type vehicle created. A good example is the T-series of tanks(e,g, T-90). They lack several features that you would find on a modern Western MBT. Why? because Soviet doctrine believes in mass produced simple to use equipment for expendable conscripts. Now fighters are obviously slightly different but the same principle applies.

Now the RCS of the SU27/30 will obviously be reduced with several things countermeasures etc as well as apparently there are a few wrinkles the Russians have thrown in to their own aircraft (but I have not heard that is has been included in any export models) BUT do you think it is gonna be easier to hide a smaller aircraft or a larger one? Take a look a the comparative sizes of the jets here
https://defence.pk/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2019/limit/recent
At the end of the day you can't make a tank into a ferrari even if you do paint it red and stick a horse on the front..

Now the old word "MKI" gets thrown around a lot. The fact that any J-10's or JF-17's will be getting the "PKI" treatment seems to be conveniently forgotten. Take a look at the numerous modifications to Chinese Kit made in the past. The J-10 will be getting the PKI treatment and will be an exciting prospect for the future..(Do you assume that it will stay at its current configuration?)

I have read up on the T-50 and from what I understand it will be a swept back version (thus losing a lot of its agility) of the S-40 (Birkut) with internal bomb bay and stealth characteristics. Apparently it will be entering service in 2009 (not holding my breath here..... ) It will be using old tech so will hardly be cutting edge fro a while......
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...sias-new-fighter-will-use-interim-engine.html

Here is another little excerpt

The government commission decided on 26 April 2002 to choose the Sukhoi holding company as the head company to develop and produce the fighter of the fifth generation. The prototype of the PAK FA would take-off in 2006 and that in 2010 the aircraft would be ready for series production. The first deliveries, both for Russian armed forces and for export, would be possible in 2011-12.

The new airplane is being proposed to be brought from the concept design to a prototype series in less than 9 years. Historically, fourth and fifth generation fighters have not been created in less than 15 years. The Russian government has promised to allocate 1.5 billion dollars for the PAK FA through 2010. But the Russian Air Force is receiving less than 200 million dollars a year during this period, and will spend it primarily on other needs.

The prices and sources of funding will determine the destiny of the whole program. To date officials agree that the program will cost $1.5 billion. However, $1.5 billion is the sum needed for creating a new generation of avionics for the fighter (considering the fact that pre-production models of the phased array have already been produced, and will soon be tested). Completion of the AL-41F engine (present readiness is 30 percent) will require, in the opinion of the boss of Rosaviakosmos, 600 - 800 million dollars. Saturn said that launching of production of the AL-41F engine would take $150 million. An improved version of the AL-31F will be used on the aircraft originally (though it is not clear how these heavy motors are reconciled with the concept of a 20-ton fighter). The upgrade of these engines will require expenditures of 1.2-1.5 billion dollars. And finally, designers will have to spend several hundred millions of dollars on creating a new airframe.
According to some reports, India and Russia have agreed to jointly develop this fifth-generation fighter, under a scheduled with entery into service in 2009. This would be the first such joint development venture between the two countries.

http://warfare.ru/?catid=255&linkid=2280

Now tell me what do you know about J-XX?

Malay I am not sure if it was you or another member who insisted that the Arjun was going to be inducted in larger numbers. However I believe that the LCA will only be inducted in a token number. The IAF will simply purchase "off the shelf" equipment like they did when they purchased T-90's. Why? well the PAK -FA will probably be off the production line before the LCA gets up and running.....

 

[Regal]

I would like to see a link about the RCS of F-16 blk 52. I have heard Rafale's RCS is around 1m2. I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that an F-16 will have roughly the same RCS, when Rafale was designed keeping stealth in mind, same as EUFT, and F/A-18E/F whose hallmark is stealth is also around 1m2. F-16 has the same body roughly, whereas all the other planes have been designed keeping some bare minimum stealth requirements in mind. So please clarify.

I know there is a lot of information available in electronic media and sifting through it is not a easy task, but I would appreciate a genuine and sincere effort on your part to at least try and looking for it. If for any reason you can’t find the desired info then I’ll be more then happy to post some links. Also going to book store or library will help you gain invaluable information. Link provided by keyser should at least make you start thinking, however I will also provide a link which will give you the RCS of almost all the fighters, Radar ranges for fighters, Rader rages for AEW. It’s a very intrusting read for starters, and also debunks the claims of most Indians who think Phalcon’s detection range far exceeds Erieye.

To answer your question, you’ve heard right the RCS of Rafale is 0.75-1m2 so does the F-18E, Eurofighter is 0.25-0.75m2. Also Rafale, Eurofighter were not design to be stealth fighters, but incorporated stealth features later in there development. To clarify Rafale or Eurofighter are not stealthy by any stretch of imagination when comparing it with F-22, or F-35, but one can easily call them along with F-16/18 Stealthy when comparing it with the Russian Su Series.

I don’t know who highsee is, but looking at his post it looks like he is pretty much right. The only thing I would like to add to his post is what I pretty much said in my previous post .

Bear in mind all this is in head on approach without ECM or ECCM.

Detection range of MKI is 140km against F-16a/b with 4m2 RCS(ones without the upgrade)
Detection range of MKI is 130-135km against a fighter with an RCS of 3m2 (Mig-21)
Detection Range of MKI is 110-115km against a F-16c/d with RCS of 1.2m2
Detection range of F-16 with (v)9 against a generic fighter is 125-130km but for a plane like MKI its going to be much higher, because MKI RCS is more then twice of a generic fighter.

Separate order of 40 “upgraded” MKI by IAF is a testament to the capabilities of F-16 Blk 52. As IAF know, MKI in its current form is not any superior to the “F-16ab/cd package” PAF has put together.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Articles/PG/PGSA.htm

Please check out Irbis, its a beasat of a radar, detection of 2m^2 to 3 is around 300-400kms. It would be the very best radar in PESA or AESA, there are VERY conflicting reports, though most likely its PESA.

The only reason I can think of you referring to these radars as “beast” or “beastly” is probably there Russian names. Apart from there humongous size I don’t see them any match for there western counterparts. NIIP NO11M Bars (Panther), Irbis-E (snow leopard)

I would ask the USAF to actually go in a proper combat with the IAF to show how Russian weapons are actually meant to be used. A weapon platform is only as good as the role in which it was designed to be used.Only India apart from Russia uses the weapons the way they were meant to be used. The arabs used recon planes to fight F-15's. Relied on only SAM's to stop USAF flights...stupid. Only India apart from Russia uses them best.
No doubt IAF will lose, but the pathetic scores of Arabs and others that have made a bad rep for Russian inventories will be erased.

Forget the U.S, IAF combat record isn’t any astonishing against second rate American weapons in the hands of her only adversary. But if you still want to take on the USAF to settle some score, and to erase all the bad rep Arabs have brought to Russian equip/tactics, then all I have to say is IAF will be doing Arabs a favor by letting the world see that Arab armies weren’t that “pathetic” especially in a way Americans made them look like.

India is changing her missile inventories very soon.

It all depends on the definition of “soon” . What might seem soon to you is no less then 6-7 years down the line for me. :army:

 

[Contrarian]

Key, why are we debating whether PAK-FA will be equal to F-35 or not. The question is, whether it will be better than anything else put together in S.Asia. And that refers to Pakistan essentially. So you tell me, do you think it will be good enough for Pakistan?

And btw i know doctrine is essential, but the soviet doctrine which you say made them produce inferior stuff, is now long gone, instead the western concepts have been adapted, from life cycle cost calcs to everything. In any case, if you just wanna debate, that Russian equipment is junk copared to western, then i cant help you there.

MKI essentially means a drastic upgrade to the existing frame. That means from Su-30 to Su-30MKI. Though the MiG 29K's that have been ordered for IN have again been modified a lot by IN, it STILL is not called MiG 29MKI. OR say if we buy F/A-18E/F, it wont be an MKI either. So you see something? Only that, which has been modded heavily will be MKI. In anycase, MKI is a name given by Russia, Modern, Komericial, Indie or summat like that, its not as though India, chose it.

 

[Contrarian]

To answer your question, you’ve heard right the RCS of Rafale is 0.75-1m2 so does the F-18E, Eurofighter is 0.25-0.75m2. Also Rafale, Eurofighter were not design to be stealth fighters, but incorporated stealth features later in there development. To clarify Rafale or Eurofighter are not stealthy by any stretch of imagination when comparing it with F-22, or F-35, but one can easily call them along with F-16/18 Stealthy when comparing it with the Russian Su Series.

Obviously when comparing Su-30 series(heavy MRCA) to F-60 series(light-medium MRCA), there has to be a difference to the RCS. Now you tell me mate, F-16, the initial versions that PAF had, have been there for around 10-15 years now, and they are being upgraded to blk 52 std right? There is not any major structural change in the upgradation, so how come the RCS will drop for F-16? 15 years back, they wernt exactly thinking of stealth like we are now.

I don’t know who highsee is, but looking at his post it looks like he is pretty much right. The only thing I would like to add to his post is what I pretty much said in my previous post .

Bear in mind all this is in head on approach without ECM or ECCM.

Detection range of MKI is 140km against F-16a/b with 4m2 RCS(ones without the upgrade)
Detection range of MKI is 130-135km against a fighter with an RCS of 3m2 (Mig-21)
Detection Range of MKI is 110-115km against a F-16c/d with RCS of 1.2m2
Detection range of F-16 with (v)9 against a generic fighter is 125-130km but for a plane like MKI its going to be much higher, because MKI RCS is more then twice of a generic fighter.

Separate order of 40 “upgraded” MKI by IAF is a testament to the capabilities of F-16 Blk 52. As IAF know, MKI in its current form is not any superior to the “F-16ab/cd package” PAF has put together.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Articles/PG/PGSA.htm

Yes, we know MKI is huge, therefore it will be detected earlier. But dont you think there would be some RCS reduction techs used JUST like reduction of RCS from F-16 15/whatever to blk 52? And on top of that i mention again and again, there will be a complete upgrade of the Su-30MKI.

The only reason I can think of you referring to these radars as “beast” or “beastly” is probably there Russian names. Apart from there humongous size I don’t see them any match for there western counterparts. NIIP NO11M Bars (Panther), Irbis-E (snow leopard)

Yes, i am aware, of their literal meanings in Russian. In any case, you told me above that i should search for some news, i suggest you try searching for the specs for Irbis and you will realise what i mean when i was it is a beast

Forget the U.S, IAF combat record isn’t any astonishing against second rate American weapons in the hands of her only adversary

.
Yes, but compared to the the IAF weaponry, the 'second hand' weaponry given by US to our only adversary was still much superior at those times.

But if you still want to take on the USAF to settle some score, and to erase all the bad rep Arabs have brought to Russian equip/tactics, then all I have to say is IAF will be doing Arabs a favor by letting the world see that Arab armies weren’t that “pathetic” especially in a way Americans made them look like.

Suit your call, had this been PLAAF instead of IAF i spoke of, you would have been chest thumping, that Chinese are THAT good and it will be proven soon to US too.

It all depends on the definition of “soon” . What might seem soon to you is no less then 6-7 years down the line for me. :army:

Is there anything else planned for PAF thats superior than the F-16 blk 52 PAF has in the next 10 years? So any upgrade that MKI gets, will only make it better, on the other hand, i dont see blk 52 bcomming blk 60 'soon', neither the J-10 beating F-16 blk 52. blk 52 remains the cream of PAF for a long time to come.

 

[Keysersoze]

Key, why are we debating whether PAK-FA will be equal to F-35 or not. The question is, whether it will be better than anything else put together in S.Asia. And that refers to Pakistan essentially. So you tell me, do you think it will be good enough for Pakistan?

And btw i know doctrine is essential, but the soviet doctrine which you say made them produce inferior stuff, is now long gone, instead the western concepts have been adapted, from life cycle cost calcs to everything. In any case, if you just wanna debate, that Russian equipment is junk copared to western, then i cant help you there.

MKI essentially means a drastic upgrade to the existing frame. That means from Su-30 to Su-30MKI. Though the MiG 29K's that have been ordered for IN have again been modified a lot by IN, it STILL is not called MiG 29MKI. OR say if we buy F/A-18E/F, it wont be an MKI either. So you see something? Only that, which has been modded heavily will be MKI. In anycase, MKI is a name given by Russia, Modern, Komericial, Indie or summat like that, its not as though India, chose it.

I think there is a misunderstanding as to what was being said my previous post. The PAK-FA will take a lot of development. The article states that the project was started in 2002 and that development of a 5th gen aircraft has not yet been done in less than 15 years.
There was a report (dated 1998) that the ONI (office of U.S. naval intelligence) made stating that the development of the J-12/13 was underway. Which one will be around first do you think? Bear in mind that the Russians have been woefully underfunding the project, and India has only just gotten involved.
So another question should be.....Do you think the J-xx will be good enough for India?

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/jxx.asp

Re: the doctrine issue....the simple fact is that the Soviet doctrine stunted the development of aircraft there and they are still playing catchup. (another factor was the lack of commercial drive to develop new products until after the soviet era) the Soviets do have some gems amongst their equipment but on the whole it is still affected by some of their old thinking.

Regards the MKI thing. I was being slightly flippant when I used the "PKI" statement. What I am talking about is the fact that whilst India can ask for specific modifications to aircraft for their use (as in the MKI) so can PAK (as they have done in the past) Incidently you have proved my previous point somewhat, when you state that the F-18 wouldn't be MKI! The SU-27 needed to "heavily modded" for use by the IAF

 

[Contrarian]

I think there is a misunderstanding as to what was being said my previous post. The PAK-FA will take a lot of development. The article states that the project was started in 2002 and that development of a 5th gen aircraft has not yet been done in less than 15 years.
There was a report (dated 1998) that the ONI (office of U.S. naval intelligence) made stating that the development of the J-12/13 was underway. Which one will be around first do you think? Bear in mind that the Russians have been woefully underfunding the project, and India has only just gotten involved.

Russians have good experience on this field undeniably, apart from that a TD is already there and has done test flights, so Key, i'l say that the project is going quite strong and is in its advanced stages,despite underfunding or whatever other reasons. You would note India's reluctance in the begnining to join the T-50 project several years back JUST for this reason. They said that they wanted to join a project in the begning so they prefered MiG's work which was starting whereas the Sukhoi led T-50 program was in its last stages wherein very minor modifications could be added. And now add to that, India has joined, that means quite a lot of funding as well as engineering collabloration. You are making your judgement based on the timeframe that since it was launched in say 200, it cannot be done early, but rather look at the progress of the project from its achievements, also i'd like to add that the start of the projects, etc is privy to only the Russian govt, news portals and other sources are mere speculations, who can say authoritatively that the project was started in so and so year?

So another question should be.....Do you think the J-xx will be good enough for India?http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/jxx.asp

Actually, if it comes to J-XX then i would say it is not good enough for India, when considering that India will have the T-50/PAK-FA.

J-XX, as again some reports suggest is using the MiG's LFI designs, so it will me mostly Russian help involved, or copying of designs. Apart from that the Russian experience and expertise in aircraft building cannot be matched by China yet. Hell China takes help in J-10/etc, etc from Russia in almost its every plane. They cannot complete any aviation project of their without Russian inputs.

Chinese have still not been able to make their fourth generation engine without practically involving Russia in the program and its STILL not complete, how do you expect the Chinese to come up with a sound 5th generation engine??

I would chose T-50 over J-XX ANY DAY/ANY TIME, as would any other person.

And assuming the Chinese do what they have done till date, use a Russian engine for a long time, till they develop the chinese version after a good time, what makes you so sure, that the engines wont be sanctioned by Russia?

Re: the doctrine issue....the simple fact is that the Soviet doctrine stunted the development of aircraft there and they are still playing catchup. (another factor was the lack of commercial drive to develop new products until after the soviet era) the Soviets do have some gems amongst their equipment but on the whole it is still affected by some of their old thinking.

Yes, their doctrine was different, but i dont think that the doctrine made them produce inferior planes. Russians have quite a few gems in their inventories and yes they are playing catchup to the Americans, that does not mean that they will not produce world class stuff in the future. I have full faith in their T-50 program.

Regards the MKI thing. I was being slightly flippant when I used the "PKI" statement. What I am talking about is the fact that whilst India can ask for specific modifications to aircraft for their use (as in the MKI) so can PAK (as they have done in the past)

Difference being that India would source the equipment from Israel, etc which are the finest along with the Americans in EW programs. Pakistan also does not and till date has not done any major modifications to any plane. Even the JF-17 would hold Chinese avionics, materials, etc, whereas in the Su program, India COMPLETELY changed the existing plane. Pakistan does not have that kind of industrial know-how as of yet. Its not just removing the Russian item and putting an Israeli or a French one in. Its an engineering process. And that is JUST what Pakistan will do-Simply replace the items. That does not qualify as being "PKI".

Incidently you have proved my previous point somewhat, when you state that the F-18 wouldn't be MKI!

Yeah, cuz we wont change the plane a lot, prolly minor mods, liek putting some Indian equipment in or some Israeli.

The SU-27 needed to "heavily modded" for use by the IAF

It was not a Su-27 Key, you should know better the difference b/w Su-27 and Su-30. Anyways, it was not NEEDED to be changed, it was about making the BEST plane possible. Your trying to twist my words there.

 

[Regal]

Obviously when comparing Su-30 series(heavy MRCA) to F-60 series(light-medium MRCA), there has to be a difference to the RCS. Now you tell me mate, F-16, the initial versions that PAF had, have been there for around 10-15 years now, and they are being upgraded to blk 52 std right? There is not any major structural change in the upgradation, so how come the RCS will drop for F-16? 15 years back, they wernt exactly thinking of stealth like we are now.

Yes, we know MKI is huge, therefore it will be detected earlier. But dont you think there would be some RCS reduction techs used JUST like reduction of RCS from F-16 15/whatever to blk 52? And on top of that i mention again and again, there will be a complete upgrade of the Su-30MKI.

Suit your call, had this been PLAAF instead of IAF i spoke of, you would have been chest thumping, that Chinese are THAT good and it will be proven soon to US too.

.

Once again, your assumption is wrong, its design, not size of the platform that dictates its stealthiness. If that was the case then F-22, F-35, B-2 could never have achieved a lower RCS then F-16. You are also completely wrong when you say “they weren’t thinking about stealth 15 years ago“. Well my friend people have been thinking about it for over 50 years now. As a matter of fact Germans were first to test the flying wing design for this purpose. Also Americans have been working on stealth technologies in one way or another since 60s, they actually tested verity of experimental aircrafts during this time as well, and by mid 70s had gained enough knowledge to incorporate stealth design and material technologies into a small plane.

Let me tell you something, there is a lot that rest of the world don’t know about USAF. I actually know some people who work for Northrop, and Lockheed according to them, It would take rest of the world at least 25 years to reach to our current technological achievements, that’s not including the work in the pipeline which will easily put it over 40 years mark. I know Its really hard for most people to believe, but bottom line is B-2 spirit was in the sky in 80s and its almost 20 years since then and world is nowhere near testing any thing remotely close to it. Let me put it this way, do you believe in UFOs??? Well if you ever get a chance to come to U.S let me know I’ll take you personally to areas where you can witness some. Just like Iran is witnessing now. lol Well reality of the situation is even Sanest of minds can’t comprehend the flight characteristics of plans flying almost always in a cover of darkness and simply call it UFOs. I know Its depressing for all the countries out there who are in a catch up game.

And to your comment of me chest thumping about PLAAF superior capabilities against USAF. Well my friend all I have to say is you are simply assuming again, as to what I would say or think. Let me tell you this, there is no chance in hell they can stand up to USAF. They do have some nice air defenses, but nothing our B-2, F-22, or EA-18 Growler can’t handle.

Malay I would be lying if I say I am not surprised as to how much your knowledge is based on mere postulation. After discussing with you, you made me realize that you don’t even have basic knowledge about F-16, or for that matter your own plan Su 30. Your knowledge is simply based on assumptions and speculations. The RCS reduction techniques employed by F-16 aren’t any cutting edge “from gold plated canopy to the use of RAM in air intake” as Russians have had the same technology for quite some time now. Do you want me to educate you now as to what kind of tech Russians have used on your SU 30, Mig-35, and to what degree they were able to reduce the RCS of these planes. I am sure you don’t have any realistic idea. I am not just talking based on assumptions here trust me.

The only reason I was enticed to engage in this discussion was your blind faith in MKI superiority over F-16. Now finally that you know where your mighty MKI stands you are simply banking on future upgrades. This simply means you finally believe that MKI is not superior to F-16 package PAF has put together.

Lastly I would like to go back to what keyser said in his previous post, there are smart people on both sides, and now that PAF is not under sanctions don’t expect it to remain in its current condition. Also keep in mind it might not buy as much as its neighbors but it will certainly maintain its technological parity, and if for any reason IAF or you can’t comprehend that then my friend you guys are in for a surprise just like the old days. :army:

 

[Contrarian]

Once again, your assumption is wrong, its design, not size of the platform that dictates its stealthiness. If that was the case then F-22, F-35, B-2 could never have achieved a lower RCS then F-16.

That falls in a different category Regal. I was talking about planes of the 4th generation, the reason why F-15 as well as Su-30 had such a high RCS. You are jumping to compare the most technologically advance planes.

You are also completely wrong when you say “they weren’t thinking about stealth 15 years ago“. Well my friend people have been thinking about it for over 50 years now. As a matter of fact Germans were first to test the flying wing design for this purpose. Also Americans have been working on stealth technologies in one way or another since 60s, they actually tested verity of experimental aircrafts during this time as well, and by mid 70s had gained enough knowledge to incorporate stealth design and material technologies into a small plane.

Well mate, meant that they wernt thinking aobut Stealth LIKE THEY DO NOW, when every country is trying for that, earlier it was just limited to the US and that too in their cutting edge planes.

Let me tell you something, there is a lot that rest of the world don’t know about USAF. I actually know some people who work for Northrop, and Lockheed according to them, It would take rest of the world at least 25 years to reach to our current technological achievements, that’s not including the work in the pipeline which will easily put it over 40 years mark. I know Its really hard for most people to believe, but bottom line is B-2 spirit was in the sky in 80s and its almost 20 years since then and world is nowhere near testing any thing remotely close to it.

I have no doubt about the technological superiority of USAF or the research work undertaken there. The US is where it is now because of its technological superiority. Please check in what context my statement was posted. It meant that the Arabs have degraded the Russian weapons and systems reputation over the years because they donot use them as they were designed to be used and in the doctrine under which it is to be used. In that scenario India is the only country that uses the Russian equipment the way its meant to be. And China qualifies too in that.

Let me put it this way, do you believe in UFOs??? Well if you ever get a chance to come to U.S let me know I’ll take you personally to areas where you can witness some. Just like Iran is witnessing now. lol Well reality of the situation is even Sanest of minds can’t comprehend the flight characteristics of plans flying almost always in a cover of darkness and simply call it UFOs. I know Its depressing for all the countries out there who are in a catch up game.

Lets just forget this line shall we ?

And to your comment of me chest thumping about PLAAF superior capabilities against USAF. Well my friend all I have to say is you are simply assuming again, as to what I would say or think. Let me tell you this, there is no chance in hell they can stand up to USAF. They do have some nice air defenses, but nothing our B-2, F-22, or EA-18 Growler can’t handle.

Again, please read all the previous posts to come to know in which context the line was spoken.

Malay I would be lying if I say I am not surprised as to how much your knowledge is based on mere postulation. After discussing with you, you made me realize that you don’t even have basic knowledge about F-16, or for that matter your own plan Su 30. Your knowledge is simply based on assumptions and speculations. The RCS reduction techniques employed by F-16 aren’t any cutting edge “from gold plated canopy to the use of RAM in air intake” as Russians have had the same technology for quite some time now.

Again, you have not read the entire posts and where i was sarcastic. Anyways, you are free to form your opinions.

Do you want me to educate you now as to what kind of tech Russians have used on your SU 30, Mig-35, and to what degree they were able to reduce the RCS of these planes. I am sure you don’t have any realistic idea. I am not just talking based on assumptions here trust me.

Please do, if you have knowledge, share it.

The only reason I was enticed to engage in this discussion was your blind faith in MKI superiority over F-16. Now finally that you know where your mighty MKI stands you are simply banking on future upgrades. This simply means you finally believe that MKI is not superior to F-16 package PAF has put together.

If i say..assuming..that F-16 blk 52 can match a Su-30MKI one for one, i would still be giving a lot of credit to the IAF, who have had the plane for a while now, whereas the PAF is yet to get theirs. On top of that, the Su-30 has planned upgrades as it has been in service for a while. Do you see a small pattern here?

Lastly I would like to go back to what keyser said in his previous post, there are smart people on both sides, and now that PAF is not under sanctions don’t expect it to remain in its current condition.

I donot doubt that statement, however PAF is undr severe budget limitations. PAF does not expect any better planes or upgrades to the blk 52 it is getting for a long time to come, however IAF has plans to upgrade and buy superior planes to the Su-30MKI.

Also keep in mind it might not buy as much as its neighbors but it will certainly maintain its technological parity,

That is exactly what will not be allowed to maintain, PAF will always be playing catchup in terms of technology, as is VERY evident from the purchase of the blk 52's, and the next ugrade of the Su-30's to the purchase of MiG 35's in the offing.

and if for any reason IAF or you can’t comprehend that then my friend you guys are in for a surprise just like the old days. :army:

The surprise has never been there. It was always Pakistan fighting with superior equipment against a numerically superior but technologically inferior India. Money matters a lot now my friend, and thanks to it, times are changing.

 

[sigatoka]

1. And to your comment of me chest thumping about PLAAF superior capabilities against USAF. Well my friend all I have to say is you are simply assuming again, as to what I would say or think. Let me tell you this, there is no chance in hell they can stand up to USAF. They do have some nice air defenses, but nothing our B-2, F-22, or EA-18 Growler can’t handle.

1. I dont agree totally with your statment. The reasons are that in a probable situation of conflict U.S. will have to attempt to move its assets closer to China (because its not like China will attack the mainland U.S. or anything, its will most probably be in a situation involving a Chinese move against Taiwan. In such a situtation China will be able to call upon large number of airdefence systems such as the S-300. It is wrong to compare Iraq's airdefence of 1991 with that of China today, it is simply a massive difference in technology and density. Also Iraq had a very poor airforce to call upon, something which can not be said of China.

 

[syed1]

24 F-6s were bought from China, Pakistan started delivering used F 6s from late 1980s.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3HTPZDuwKfLcnZDMHQwMUpaUE0/view

 

[aliyusuf]

24 F-6s were bought from China, Pakistan started delivering used F 6s from late 1980s.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3HTPZDuwKfLcnZDMHQwMUpaUE0/view

Thanks for reviving a 9 year old thread in a context that is quite irrelevant to what is being discussed in the forum and the current geo-political situation.

 

[syed1]

Thanks for reviving a 9 year old thread in a context that is quite irrelevant to what is being discussed in the forum and the current geo-political situation.

It's better to get right info rather than leaving things as they're forever.

 

[aliyusuf]

It's better to get right info rather than leaving things as they're forever.

For all practical purposes this thread was sort of dead and buried. Its not like people were reading this regularly and going away with a wrong idea about something that needed to be corrected (in your opinion).

But pls don't mind me ... do what you feel you need to do.