Bajrang Dal terrorists attack Churches

[Awesome]

Last I checked, Islam allows conversions to its fold but condemns the person converting to other religions to death.

Don't people see some hypocrisy here. And then you come and tell Indians to allow conversions in India!

If the conversions are carried out by foul means and lead to social tension, we have every right to ban them. It is still not as hypocritical as people trying to convert others and murdering folks in their fold if they do likewise.

It's debatable, Islam also says there's no compulsion in religion. Not all Muslims agree to killing someone over leaving Islam. In fact you'll find most Muslim Secularists strongly condemn any such practice. But none of you spoke against killing the Christians, rather you guys said "Let's punish the Christians by banning conversions so next time they won't be killed".

 

[Awesome]

Muse, I am not sure what are you finding defensive in my reply. I agree with you that ideally a person should be free to choose his faith. If in India it is giving rise to social tensions, it is obvious that this freedom becomes subservient to maintaining social harmony. I am sure you won't have it any other way, either in Pakistan or in India.

Indian constitution allows all religions the freedom to practice and preach their faith. This right comes with some duties. Those who seek only rights without fulfilling their duties can go take a hike.

And that duty includes not to convert Hindus?

So if I go ahead and tell a Hindu that what you're worshiping is wrong, it's man-made, the real God is unseen, it's one, has no equal... And if that Hindu accepts my belief... I'm doing something wrong?

How are you going to challenge someone's belief? Anyone can believe anything they wish to. Heck that Sai baba rapist fraud in India converts hundreds of White Christians to Hinduism all the time. He uses cheap magic tricks which can be found in a child's magic toy box!

But you don't see Christians outraged at him. The only problem people have with him is that he's raping little boys but not a problem with his conversions.

 

[Flintlock]

And that duty includes not to convert Hindus?

So if I go ahead and tell a Hindu that what you're worshiping is wrong, it's man-made, the real God is unseen, it's one, has no equal... And if that Hindu accepts my belief... I'm doing something wrong?

Actually, no, you aren't. There are Hindu sects also which believe exactly the same thing.

The problem isn't with the belief that you are stating, its with the other implications of converting to Islam, for example, greater alllegiance to Islam than your own country, political Islam that constantly seeks to create a Sharia state, repressive beliefs like burkha and other legal principles, and a general contempt towards all other religions.

Contempt breeds contempt - so the Hindu right is simply a reaction to the attitude of Muslims towards non-muslims.

Why do you think Shaivites have no problems with Vaishnavites, Jains have no issues with Buddhists, and Hare-Krishnas have no issues with Swaminarayans? Because there is an understanding that all beliefs lead to the same god "One god Many Paths".
However, in Islam, you have "There is only one god and his name is Allah". That's when the problem arises.

 

[muse]

The problem isn't with the belief that you are stating, its with the other implications of converting to Islam, for example, greater alllegiance to Islam than your own country, political Islam that constantly seeks to create a Sharia state, repressive beliefs like burkha and other legal principles, and a general contempt towards all other religions

.


What you have presented is fear of a political nature - whereas Islam is a confession - clearly not Muslims are persuaded by the kind of political islam you describe - should you think that is the case with all, you will set yourself up for failure and the end of the vision of India as a pluralistic, tolerant political economy - don't you see that?

And if the view of muslims that you present is prevalent, then the notionof a secular India is moot.

Vinod and you have present the reality well - which is to say that the struggle has ended up being between liberties/rights and social unrest.

But if a basic liberty or right such as freedom of conscience or confession is challenged, then the very core has been challeneged - don't you seet that?

Compare the situation of the Ahmadi or Qaidiani in Pakistan - here a group that refers to itself as Muslim has been declared non-muslim by the state under political pressure - it is reprehensible and most tragic - shall India follow in these foot steps, a greater tragedy and a moratal danger to the territorial integrity of India will ensue -

Today we say U.S has betrayed her own ideals, and in doing so has betrayed hundreds of millions if not billions, shall you place India in the same position?

Look, the fact of the matter is that a basic right has been breached and caused a schism in society - If I may suggest to you, people are persuaded and can change their minds but once they think that they are being forced to do something they think they do not want to do - well, that's a problem, people will react to it in a negative manner.

People convert and may change their minds or they may not - the state using non-state actors to effect the conscience of it's citizens can and will have tragic consequences, as you should learn from events in Pakistan.

 

[Flintlock]

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What you have presented is fear of a political nature - whereas Islam is a confession - clearly not Muslims are persuaded by the kind of political islam you describe - should you think that is the case with all, you will set yourself up for failure and the end of the vision of India as a pluralistic, tolerant political economy - don't you see that?

Well a lot of muslims are persuaded by such thinking. The biggest proof of this is the creation of Pakistan.

Vinod and you have present the reality well - which is to say that the struggle has ended up being between liberties/rights and social unrest.

The struggle is against a way of thinking which doesn't believe in the concept of civil liberties and rights.
Should we be liberal towards an ideology which doesn't believe in religious freedom?

The evangelists of the world are not known for their liberalism, let me assure you.

Compare the situation of the Ahmadi or Qaidiani in Pakistan - here a group that refers to itself as Muslim has been declared non-muslim by the state under political pressure - it is reprehensible and most tragic - shall India follow in these foot steps, a greater tragedy and a moratal danger to the territorial integrity of India will ensue -

India will never follow in these footsteps, because in India, no group is persecuted because of their beliefs. If that were the case, the large number of animists and tribals who worship tribal gods and goddesses would have been declared un-Hindu by the Brahmins a long time ago.

India has always been known for its religious freedom, and will continue to be known as such.

However, when a group breaks the golden rule which allowed so many faiths to flourish in the first place - i.e. do not proselytize aggressively and do not display contempt toward other beliefs, then things begin to unravel, as they are doing so now.

People convert and may change their minds or they may not - the state using non-state actors to effect the conscience of it's citizens can and will have tragic consequences, as you should learn from events in Pakistan.

One must take into consideration all the implications of converting to a religion, and not just harp about religious freedom.

If suppose a hypothetical cult sprung up which tells its followers to reject the Indian constitution and revolt against it, will the laws of religious freedom still apply to it?

 

[muse]

A most telling and disappointing post indeed. Anything but Islam is a prescription for disaster for the 130 million Muslims of India and for non-Muslims of India.

If "anything but Islam" is an idea of tolerance - ought those who hold such ideas be tolerated??

You have not thought things through and have presented an emotional display when lucid thinking is required.

 

[Flintlock]

A most telling and disappointing post indeed. Anything but Islam is a prescription for disaster for the 130 million Muslims of India and for non-Muslims of India.

If "anything but Islam" is an idea of tolerance - ought those who hold such ideas be tolerated??

Well I am merely describing a point of view which has certain merits - even if it may appear to violate certain principles.

The current anti-Islam feeling in Europe is based on the same ideas - that muslims in their countries are too aggressive in promoting their beliefs and way of life, which is against the culture and social norms in their own countries.

Of course, don't get me wrong - I am against these riots and burning of churches and the like. They have violated the law and must be brought to justice.

However, in a deeply religious society like India, it is essential that religions do not openly display hostility towards other beliefs, if social order is to be maintained.

In a more liberal scenario - where religion is of not much importance - I would definitely support it if people condemn the beliefs of any religion (including Hinduism), since I myself do not believe in any doctrine or ideology.

 

[Flintlock]

This is what the Bajrang Dal (the organization accused of burning churches) has to say:

"The Bajrang Dal is not against any religion. It acknowledges respecting the faith of other people, but expects and asserts for a similar respect of the Hindu Sentiments. Being Hindu, the Bajrang Dal believes in validity of All Religions and Respect for all human beings, irrespective of caste, color, and religion (Aatmasvat Sarva Bhuteshu). It is for this purpose that the Bajrang Dal has undertaken various public-awakening campaigns. It does not believe in violence or any unlawful activity."

 

[Spring Onion]

tolerence of Hindus towards other religions

BHUBANESWAR: Fresh violence has broken out in Orissa's troubled Kandhamal district with a policeman killed as an armed mob of about 500 torched a police station and set fire to several vehicles, officials said on Tuesday.

The violence in Gochapada area on Monday night comes two days after security forces fired at a crowd in Krutamgarh, about 100 km away, to prevent them from attacking Christian residents, officials said.

Three people were killed on Saturday night though some reports said the death toll from the police firing was six.

On Monday night, the ire seemed to spill over to the police personnel in Gochapada with crowds carrying guns, swords and sticks ransacking the police station.

"One police station at Gochapada was burnt down by a mob of about 500. One policeman was shot dead," District Collector Krishan Kumar said.

The mob also torched several vehicles, including a police jeep and a motorcycle, he said.

With the death of the police personnel in Gochapada, the number of people killed since the Aug 23 murder of Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) leader Swami Laxmananda Saraswati has gone up to 25.

The murder of the VHP leader by unidentified gunmen in his Jalespata Ashram in Kandhamal district triggered communal clashes in which several churches were attacked, thousands rendered homeless and 25 killed.

Police suspect Maoist rebels killed Saraswati but some Hindu groups blamed Christians for the murder and went on the rampage.

Christian groups have repeatedly denied the allegation.

Orissa is not new to communal violence between Hindus and Christians.

On January 22, 1999, Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two sons, 10-year-old Philip and six-year-old Timothy, were burnt alive by a Hindu mob in their vehicle in Keonjhar district.

Email shows change in line by Indian Mujahideen-India-The Times of India

 

[ngold]

Jana is not part of the discussion here. What's it got to do with questioning Indians secularism who want to force Hinduism on a Billion people?

Well said..
I am just talking about the double satndards.. I was not aware about your feelings for......

Not a billion people.. Minorities (Muslim/ X-tians)are around 30 Crores. So correct you figure...

 

[Spring Onion]

This is what the Bajrang Dal (the organization accused of burning churches) has to say:

Actions speak louder than words.

The World has not forgotten demolition of Babri Mosque by Hindu terrorists of Bajrang Dal and other fanatic organisations.that is their real face.


And go to Bajrang Dal website and you will see their manifesto.

 

[ngold]

Ah Classic. Terrorism conducted by Hindus is communalism.

"People just can't get a long". Dude, go and ask the people they've killed. They must be pretty terrorized alright!

Hindu's were not the first that communalise the country.. Communalism was created over 1000 years ago when they wr forced to conevrt to...

 

[Flintlock]

‘Probe activities of New Life, Bible Readers’
Staff Correspondent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catholics, Protestants not involved in conversion, say community leaders
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MYSORE: Seeking to distance themselves from the alleged conversion activities in different parts of the State, Christian community leaders in Mysore have appealed to the State Government to investigate activities of groups such as “New Life” and “Bible Readers”.

Convener of the Mysore Diocese and president of the Konkani Christian Association of Mysore Gracian Rodrigues told The Hindu on Sunday that Catholics, who comprised almost 90 per cent of the Christian population in the country, and the Protestants, were not involved in any conversion activity in the State.

However, he alleged that activists of New Life, Bible Readers and other such groups, which were set up about seven to eight years ago by people from the U.S. and the U.K., were trying to convert not only Hindus and Muslims but also Catholics.

“Activists of these groups follow a different Bible. They are bringing out pamphlets asking people to follow Jesus and not any other God. The activists are neither Catholics nor Protestants. They are indulging in conversion through allurement, which violates the preaching of the Bible they follow,” Mr. Rodrigues said. Mr. Rodrigues urged the Government to investigate activities of such groups, besides finding out their source of funding.

Reiterating that the Bible did not allow forceful or induced conversion, Mr. Rodrigues urged activists of Hindutva groups to bring people engaged in such activities before the Bishop instead of vandalising prayer halls and attacking Christians. He urged the police to ensure that churches in Mysore were provided security.

The Hindu : Karnataka / Mysore News : ‘Probe activities of New Life, Bible Readers’

 

[Spring Onion]

‘Probe activities of New Life, Bible Readers’
Staff Correspondent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catholics, Protestants not involved in conversion, say community leaders
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MYSORE: Seeking to distance themselves from the alleged conversion activities in different parts of the State, Christian community leaders in Mysore have appealed to the State Government to investigate activities of groups such as “New Life” and “Bible Readers”.

Convener of the Mysore Diocese and president of the Konkani Christian Association of Mysore Gracian Rodrigues told The Hindu on Sunday that Catholics, who comprised almost 90 per cent of the Christian population in the country, and the Protestants, were not involved in any conversion activity in the State.

However, he alleged that activists of New Life, Bible Readers and other such groups, which were set up about seven to eight years ago by people from the U.S. and the U.K., were trying to convert not only Hindus and Muslims but also Catholics.

“Activists of these groups follow a different Bible. They are bringing out pamphlets asking people to follow Jesus and not any other God. The activists are neither Catholics nor Protestants. They are indulging in conversion through allurement, which violates the preaching of the Bible they follow,” Mr. Rodrigues said. Mr. Rodrigues urged the Government to investigate activities of such groups, besides finding out their source of funding.

Reiterating that the Bible did not allow forceful or induced conversion, Mr. Rodrigues urged activists of Hindutva groups to bring people engaged in such activities before the Bishop instead of vandalising prayer halls and attacking Christians. He urged the police to ensure that churches in Mysore were provided security.

The Hindu : Karnataka / Mysore News : ‘Probe activities of New Life, Bible Readers’

well well and did you ever that to probe that who has created this New Bible?????

Go and check you will find again Hindu hand in this too.

The New bible has been introduced incorporating Hinud scriptures and signs and symbols just to tarnish the Christian teachings.

 

[Flintlock]

Gosh, by that definition, Nepal can be another state of India!

You guys are confused secularists. Calling yourself seculars because someone told you its a good thing . You're raping the very term!

I"m describing Hindutva, not Secularism.

In any case, secularism means separation of church and state, and I am definitely not arguing against that.
The policies of the government are definitely not going to be decided by Hindu priests and astrologers.