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Baitullah Mehsud bites the dust, confirmed! :)

Durran3 it's not that we like Arabs.**** them.They are worse but we are talking about American self righteousness here.Look at S-2 the guy post here and says that Pakistan is a evil nation and it colonize Afghanistan what a stupid comment when in reality Pakistani Scientists, doctors, eng went into Afghanistan after Soviet war to rebuild it and then say America is savior.Look at America Actions..Agent Orange, Vietnam War, Iraq war..You know americans are biggest hypocrites in the world.When russia invade Georgia then john Mccain says no respectable country invades another soverign country in 21st century.I mean what the **** was he smoking when he said that?
 
Durran3 it's not that we like Arabs.**** them.They are worse but we are talking about American self righteousness here.Look at S-2 the guy post here and says that Pakistan is a evil nation and it colonize Afghanistan what a stupid comment when in reality Pakistani Scientists, doctors, eng went into Afghanistan after Soviet war to rebuild it and then say America is savior.Look at America Actions..Agent Orange, Vietnam War, Iraq war..You know americans are biggest hypocrites in the world.When russia invade Georgia then john Mccain says no respectable country invades another soverign country in 21st century.I mean what the **** was he smoking when he said that?

Hey I was very much against the Iraq war from day 1, don't get me wrong! Its probably one of the biggest mistakes in the past 2 decades and i despise the Bush Administration so i am not apologetic towards the American Administration for what they've done in there. The whole notion that Americans went in Iraq to bring Democracy is nothing but a sham which had nothing to do with 9/11 or Weapons of Mass destruction.. we all know that.

What i was saying is that if your going condemn violence you might as well start by condemning those leaders who are oppressing and harassing its own countrymen as well. The foreign elements will follow anyways, its not ok to simply protest for Palestinian Muslims and ignore the Muslims of Darfur.

Now lets stay on topic please.. S2 is merely making his argument and if you have something to say i suggest you refute what he says, after all its a discussion forum and no one means anyone harm.

:agree:

Cheers
 
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Editorial: Succession after Baitullah

Is Baitullah Mehsud dead or alive? The interior minister, Rehman Malik, says he has been eliminated. But the Americans who targeted him are still not sure. No matter. We will know the truth soon enough. There is also news about a meeting of the Taliban shura in South Waziristan to discuss the question of the “next” leader of the Tehreek-e Taliban Pakistan (TTP). It has been reported that a brawl broke out in this meeting and a couple of the contenders for succession were shot dead. Again, confirmation from the ground is thin. No matter. Consider the following contingent facts.

Baitullah’s leadership was falling apart before he was targeted or the Americans wouldn’t have got close to him. After all, American drones have been after other preferred targets in North Waziristan like Hafiz Gul Bahadur and Jalaludin Haqqani and his son without success. Targeting is not done by merely looking at the ground from a satellite; someone on the ground has to pinpoint and physically facilitate a strike. Apparently, this approach was followed in the case of Baitullah.

Baitullah suffered from the disadvantage of being a Pashtun among Pashtun warriors, averse to accepting other leaders and facing problems of obedience among warlords too individualistic to allow the creation of a tightly knit organisation. Disputes were resolved through the Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Umar — whose word was not always effective — and Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda, to whom everyone swore allegiance while dangerously remaining split among themselves.

In South Waziristan, Maulvi Nazir and Baitullah were actually at war. Maulvi Nazir was aligned with fellow Wazir, Hafiz Gul Bahadur, in North Waziristan. Internecine war was prevented by intercession from Al Qaeda and Mullah Umar, of which there is ample evidence. In South Waziristan, Qari Hussain Ahmad of Sararogha contested the leadership of Baitullah of Makin. Commander Hakimullah Mehsud, who is said (still unconfirmed) to have been killed during the succession shura, belonged to the Qari Hussain faction and was terrorising the Kurram and Orakzai agencies.

Baitullah was charismatic. All the Pashtun warriors are in their mid-30s, the years when one’s mind is not mature but is convinced of certainties that make them kill. From Fazlullah of Swat to Baitullah of Makin, all of them depended on terror and intimidation to bolster their charisma, which in turn rested on their age of rash decision-making. But anthropologists have always told us about the other source of charisma among Pashtuns: the charisma of disagreement and of saying no. During the war against the Soviet Union, the Tajiks had just one militia and one leader, Ahmad Shah Massoud; but the Pashtuns had six leaders who later fought a terrible civil war with one another.

The Pashtun are legendary fighters. They are fearless. They may not defeat the enemy but they make the victory of the enemy meaningless by bogging him down. They cannot create order among themselves enough to give themselves a viable state. But they are good at creating disorder. Afghanistan was a sort of a “state” only because it did not insist on acquiring the known lineaments of a state. Pashtun discipline is undermined by honour-based quarrels; and that is followed by the decisiveness of the factor of bribe-taking. That has been Baitullah’s undoing.


Once the Pakistan army was given a clear mandate to go after the TTP, the results have been astoundingly positive. “Experts” had claimed that the war in Swat would last ten years and that the refugees would be internal refugees forever. Indeed, no pundit recommended war against Baitullah Mehsud and most insisted on “talks”, another way of capitulation without a fight. But once the pressure was put on the TTP, the fissures came to the surface.

Warrior leaders like Qari Zainuddin Mehsud and Turkistan Bitani left Baitullah as soon as they could and surprised everyone by their resolve to engage Baitullah in a war to the end despite their weak position in South Waziristan. Although he was with Baitullah as a partner when Benazir Bhutto was assassinated, Zainuddin revealed that he was eyewitness to Baitullah’s plan to kill her. Regrettably, however, most “anchor” opinion in Pakistan is still unable to digest the fact that it was Baitullah who, on a decree from Al Qaeda, had first announced that he would kill her if she returned to Pakistan, and then denied it when he realised that the people of Pakistan were outraged by the killing.

Succession in the TTP is not going to be easy. And the TTP is never going to be the same. All qualities among the Pashtun are individual, above all organisational talent not often found in warriors. This is the time for Pakistan to move forward and reclaim its sovereignty from the Taliban. Al Qaeda is in trouble in this transition. The drones are getting too close for comfort, and more and more people will now be inclined to take money to betray its leaders’ whereabouts.

Under the circumstances, the news that Al Qaeda may move out of the mountains and into the cities is credible. The big cities are safe from the drones; but they are susceptible to better ground surveillance. Al Qaeda has gone through that experience in Karachi and suffered. Today it could be facing a crucial moment in its life
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Provide me a nice link to the story of all those scientists, engineers, doctors, educators from Pakistan who went to serve the afghan people after the Soviet-Afghan war.

How much of that, btw, was measured and official aid by the GoP?

Anyway, back up your blather. About me. About yourself.

Evil?

I actually feel badly for your civilian government. I sense they would like to do all the correct thingys...

...sorta, but battle about thirty years plus of a Zia promulgated islamo-fascist hangover that continues to infect your intelligence services, armed forces, and public which makes for a hard row to hoe.

Most of you, deep down in your hearts (or right on the surface:rofl:) want nothing more than to see America suffer a grand military defeat at the hands of some muslim force or the PRC/Russia.

ANYTHING to suggest there's a counter-weight somewhere who'll sponsor your continued proxy war in Afghanistan.
 
Editorial: Succession after Baitullah

This article seems to me like anti-pushton more then what it say in the title. It is a lie that tajiks were united under Ahmad shah masoud, and also this a lie that there was different pushton leader who found within themself. Yes there are some differences between different pashton tribes, but when taliban grown everyone united against Soviets under Mullah Umer this was the reason they managed to capture 98% of Afghanistan. while farsibans wes confused and didn't like northern alliance and thats why they dragged to the end of the roads. Ahmad Shah masoud never had any support from the afghans (farsi bans or pashtoons), but Ahmad shah masood try to put Farsi ban against pashtoon so he can enjoy his rule in kabul, which were gifted by Soviets after their defeat. Other examples of the jarga made by different tribes where all leader not only speak up, but also accept the Jarga decisions.

To me what happened in that succession conference was because our agency try to divide masoud tribes, waziri or north waziri, so they could manage to give humiliated defeat to BM and co. And they have done pretty good Job, now Pak army has to just watch and wait for the right opportunity to eliminate TTP. But they also need to work on drone and missile attack since this can weaken their plan
 
@Fracker

I find that hard to believe because i remember many people in Peshawar (where i am from) who gladly supported Ahmad Shah Masud. He was considered a hero amongst many here
 
After Baitullah, battle on for Taliban treasure
Monday, August 10, 2009
By Kamran Khan

KARACHI: A bloody feud that followed Baitullah Mehsud’s death involving about three-dozen best-trained Taliban fighters early on Wednesday morning was actually a battle among various Taliban warlords to control Rs 2 billion Taliban funds and ownership of arms and ammunition worth about Rs 1 billion by grabbing the ‘Emarat’ (the leadership) of the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), according to senior security officials and knowledgeable Taliban sources.

Such was the charisma and awe of 35-year-old, five feet two inches tall Baitullah Mehsud that none of his associates ever dared to challenge his leadership till an American missile strike blew his body apart on the first floor of the house of his second wife in South Waziristan last week.

An intelligence official said: “For about four years, some 3,500 trained fighters and dozens of suicide bombers blindly followed Baitullah as he was the centre of gravity of terrorism in Pakistan.” The battle for the control of the Rs 3 billion Taliban treasure erupted within two days of Baitullah’s death, when two of his most trusted lieutenants, Hakimullah Mehsud and Waliur Rehman, claimed succession in an emergency meeting in Sararogha, where an armed clash left Hakimullah Mehsud dead, along with 40 Taliban fighters, on Saturday evening, a security official said.

An official account of this incident said Waliur Rehman got seriously wounded, while Qari Hussain, who ran the Taliban’s suicide operations directly under Baitullah Mehsud, was also wounded with bullet injuries on both legs in the same incident.

Hakimullah Mehsud, Waliur Rehman and Qari Hussain were claimant to the ‘Emarat’ of the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, that comes with a grip on funds of billions of rupees, huge cache of weapons and thousands of trained fighters and a close affinity with al-Qaeda and its leader Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri, who had chosen Baitullah Mehsud to lead the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan.

“There is a constant flow of tens of millions of dollars from foreign enemy sources that keeps the Taliban machine rolling,” a senior security official said, adding: “Over the years Baitullah had built a cash reserve of about Rs 2 billion in addition to large cache of sophisticated weapons, ammunition and latest communication equipment.”

Intelligence officials believe money for the Pakistani Taliban was either buried in various caves in the tribal areas or it was stashed in various bank accounts in Pakistan and in some Gulf states.

Baitullah Mehsud’s coffers expanded so much last year that he sent one of his cousins to Dubai for cash investment in various real estate projects; subsequently millions of dollars were remitted for adventurous business proposals in Gulf states.

“It was not theft, Baitullah just wanted to bolster Taliban reserves because of growing expenses,” said a Karachi-based Mehsud tribesman, who had associated with Baitullah in the past. Narrating another incident, the same source said when a renowned Taliban commander informed Baitullah about huge monetary offers he was receiving from Pakistani officials to surrender, Baitullah’s answer to this man was: “Money is not with the government of Pakistan. Money is with me, tell me how much you want.” Officials concede Baitullah’s money power was such that it was difficult for them to buy his key commanders, as he conveniently outbid them in case of a couple of important commanders.

A senior police official in Peshawar said Baitullah was convinced by al-Qaeda and Pakistan’s foreign enemies that South Waziristan would soon emerge as an independent “Islamic Emirate” and he would be declared as its first Amir.

Intelligence accounts speak of smooth flow of cash to Baitullah from enemy agents, posing as wealthy and highly motivated Arab Muslims, who had established direct connection with the reclusive Taliban commander.

The Taliban sources close to Baitullah Mehsud say a strong cash flow was his most crucial need because his top priority remained an uninterrupted payment of monthly salaries to the families of each of his fighters. Baitullah was supervising a smooth system of cash deliveries ranging from Rs10,000 to Rs20,000 at the doorsteps of his fighters all across Pakistan. Sustenance allowance reached the families of those killed in action.

“Cash pipelines emanating from RAW and Afghan secret services headquarters were terminating in Baitullah-ran accounts, besides cash and weapons infusion,” intelligence officials believed. They estimate Baitullah was paying about Rs600 million in salaries for his fighters every year.

While intelligence agencies see a direct hand of Indian and Afghan secret agencies in financing terror outfits in Pakistan, US officials have consistently accused wealthy individuals in unnamed Gulf countries of providing finances to the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Pakistani and Taliban sources say Maulana Ikramuddin, the man who gave his young daughter to Baitullah Mehsud in marriage last year, was the custodian of some of the key financial secrets of Baitullah Mehsud. Ikramuddin was not at home when the US missile struck his residence, killing Baitullah and about 40 of his bodyguards.

Intelligence officials watched with keen interest that when Hakimullah Mehsud and Waliur Rehman groups clashed in Sararogha, each one of them tried to kidnap Ikramuddin, who was there to arrange a negotiated succession agreement under his umbrella. Ikramuddin, an official source said, was taken away by injured Waliur Rehman.

While foreign cash inflows remained an important source of the Taliban funding, irrefutable evidence showed that Baitullah also ran strong syndicate of select Mehsud tribesmen in Karachi and some Jihadi elements of southern Punjab who were assigned to provide cash injection through bank robberies and kidnappings for ransom.

In one incident two years ago, two private security guards, both Mehsud tribesmen and close associates of Baitullah Mehsud, looted Rs140 million from a foreign exchange company in Karachi. The investigation led the trail to Baitullah Mehsud, who was later approached by a delegation of top Islamic scholars of Karachi for the return of the money. Baitullah obliged the Ulema by returning Rs16.5 million from the looted Rs140 million. The matter is in full knowledge of JUI chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman, who had organised the Scholars’ meeting with Baitullah Mehsud.

Several important cases of kidnappings for ransom in Karachi and Lahore over the last two years and a majority of kidnappings for ransom cases reported in Peshawar in the past two years were settled when the Taliban or their contacts were paid huge ransoms.

After Baitullah, battle on for Taliban treasure
 
Death of TTP chief
Monday, August 10, 2009
Malik asks Taliban to prove claims

ISLAMABAD: Interior Minister Rehman Malik has challenged the Taliban to prove their leaders are still alive, after reports that two of them have been killed.

Rehman Malik told the BBC officials physical evidence showed that the top commander, Baitullah Mehsud, was killed in a US missile attack on Wednesday.He said intelligence suggested that a shoot-out later broke out between Mehsud’s potential successors in which one died.

The militant group’s spokesmen were unable to offer any physical evidence to disprove the government’s claims. In an interview with the BBC, Malik denied the allegation that Pakistani security forces had no evidence to prove that Mehsud was killed, along with one of his wives, in a strike on his father-in-law’s house in the Zangarha area, northeast of Ladha, on Wednesday.

“The day before yesterday, there was credible information coming from inside the area that Baitullah Mehsud had been killed,” the minister said, adding “This credible information had come right from sources based in South Waziristan, and particularly in Ladha.”

But Malik admitted that the government did not have any material evidence so far confirming that Baitullah Mehsud is dead. He said intelligence suggested that a “scuffle” had broken out between Mehsud’s potential successors in Waziristan on Friday in which one of them, Hakimullah Mehsud, was killed. Local media also said a shoot-out had happened.

“Obviously, it is not a story made up by us. This fight must have happened because of the succession,” he added. Malik said Hakimullah Mehsud and Waliur Rehman, the other leader allegedly involved in the shoot-out, had long been hostile towards each other.

“They had been fighting in the past and we have information that there has been enmity between Wali and Hakimullah since they were fighting together in Kurram valley,” he added.

Death of TTP chief
 
@Fracker

I find that hard to believe because i remember many people in Peshawar (where i am from) who gladly supported Ahmad Shah Masud. He was considered a hero amongst many here

well, 1st of all peshawar is majority Pashtoon + Hindko Speaking people, only 30,000-50.000 farsi ban lives there(non tajiks). Which is not certain population to make your mind up. I have spend my major life in mardan (around 20+ yrs) and my family is still in mardan. And what i know there isn't much population which used to back Ahmad Shah Masoud. My cousin spend his some life in kabul, Afghanistan. He went there for MD while Soviets time, and when fight reached to kabul he run back to pakistan, and then went back to kabul to complete his MD, received his degree in 2000 (he is lawyer+dr now). what he told me also confirm what i said here.

Also if you read the news on media you will see when Ahmad Shah masoud was hanged people were literally throwing their sandals on him because of hatter against soviet.
 
@Fracker

I find that hard to believe because i remember many people in Peshawar (where i am from) who gladly supported Ahmad Shah Masud. He was considered a hero amongst many here

I remember hearing on some TV show -- from Hamid Gul, of all people, I think -- that both the Taliban (Mullah Omar?) and Northern Alliance (Ahmed Shah Masud) came to Islamabad to arbitrate and settle their disputes but, for whatever reason, we spurned NA and backed Taliban 100%.

Yet another screw-up by Pakistani diplomacy...

These clowns in our Foreign Office are probably hired and promoted based on connections and nepotism, because ability sure is nowhere in sight...
 
well, 1st of all peshawar is majority Pashtoon + Hindko Speaking people, only 30,000-50.000 farsi ban lives there(non tajiks). Which is not certain population to make your mind up. I have spend my major life in mardan (around 20+ yrs) and my family is still in mardan. And what i know there isn't much population which used to back Ahmad Shah Masoud. My cousin spend his some life in kabul, Afghanistan. He went there for MD while Soviets time, and when fight reached to kabul he run back to pakistan, and then went back to kabul to complete his MD, received his degree in 2000 (he is lawyer+dr now). what he told me also confirm what i said here.

Also if you read the news on media you will see when Ahmad Shah masoud was hanged people were literally throwing their sandals on him because of hatter against soviet.

Ahmad Shah was lion of Pancher Wadi , he gave tough time to Russian , due internal differences he was killed by Al Qaeda or Talaban.

Your information is not right
 
Ahmad Shah was lion of Pancher Wadi , he gave tough time to Russian , due internal differences he was killed by Al Qaeda or Talaban.

Your information is not right

Which information is not correct? your non arguments denies what i said earlier. Also, can you post a single struggle from him against Soviets? there is a major doubt in pashtoons that Soviets didn't enter pancher valley because of the links between soviets (& that is one reason he become the part of puppet government in kabul after soviets left). & read more about "Death Dance" you will get idea how Ahmad Shah Masoud raise conflicts between pashtoon and farsi bans.
 
@Fracker

I would like to refute your claims that you made about Northern Alliances forces not struggling against the soviets.

There is enough evidence and skeleton tanks still lying in Pansher valley to this date. There was a full documentary about him by national geographic.

Here is the national geographic documentary

Afghanistan Revealed - Joost

*Some scenes are very gruesome and shows Taliban atrocities and war violence*

Though i don't want to get into the argument about what his ideas were about Pakistan nonetheless i am merely sticking to the point you made about his Soviet Clashes

P.S I suggest everyone watch the documentary i posted above
P.P.S Its kind of funny to see the poor American Journalist whose stuck in the whole war mess, he's freaking out while everyone is laughing. Nonetheless an absolutely incredible piece of journalism

No one deserves to live under the Taliban, no one and anyone who supports them should be ashamed of themselves
 
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@Fracker

I would like to refute your claims that you made about Northern Alliances forces not struggling against the soviets.

There is enough evidence and skeleton tanks still lying in Pansher valley to this date. There was a full documentary about him by national geographic.

Here is the national geographic documentary

Afghanistan Revealed - Joost

*Some scenes are very gruesome and shows Taliban atrocities and war violence*

Though i don't want to get into the argument about what his ideas were about Pakistan nonetheless i am merely sticking to the point you made about his Soviet Clashes

P.S I suggest everyone watch the documentary i posted above
P.P.S Its kind of funny to see the poor American Journalist whose stuck in the whole war mess, he's freaking out while everyone is laughing. Nonetheless an absolutely incredible piece of journalism

No one deserves to live under the Taliban, no one and anyone who supports them should be ashamed of themselves


Pushtoon tribel culture is unique and more than 2000 years old , being pushtoon you should proud of it , basically pushtoon are from ten lost tribes , there culture is similiar to arabs but they forget their language,

Read more about history of your elders , i like pushtoon tradition very much same as arabs.

Talaban are basically pushtoons developed by ISI/CIA , better blame the master mind behind them .
 

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