Babur 3 only a Stop-Gap, Pakistan needs real SLBM

[Ultima Thule]

No cruise missile comes even close to a ballistic missile when it comes to range. So it's necessary to have SLBMs. As for ABMs making them ineffective, there's the option of MIRV.

but our enemy is not 8000 Km away, our enemy is in our next doorbro BM has Big IR and radar RCS can easily be intercepted at mid-course before bus releases MIRV warheads, CM is much better than SLBM if we increases its range to 1500-2000 Km

 

[war&peace]

We need both SLBM and SLCM since they are complementary and can be used for different purposes: SLCM to take out high value targets while SLBM for strategic second strike. SLCM is more expensive while and SLBM with high velocity and manoeuvring and multiple warheads can evade ABM systems. The target should be SLCM > 1500 km while SLBM with > 3500 km

 

[Hassan Guy]

Agreed.

I've been advocating this for a while.

 

[Safriz]

It's another think that UK spending Billion Pound a boat to build Astute class subs which can only carry Tomahawk SLCMs in numbers.
So not that useless they are.

SLBM is on the way. The Chinese subs we are getting will carry 3 SLBM per boat.

 

[Hassan Guy]

but our enemy is not 8000 Km away, our enemy is in our next door

Yes, BUT our 'enemy' is MASSIVE.


The Babur only has limited range and payload.

 

[[--Leo--]]

babur can have 1100 km range in chinese sub thats enough range you can attack deep into country from there sea what else you want
if you use balastic missile you need to have non-attack blastic submarine + blastic missile which can be dedected by enmy radar easily i think that is not the smart choice

 

[amardeep mishra]

similar to the Indian K-15 (which is based on the brahmo)

Hi!
I thought I should correct this,K-15 is no brahmos! In fact both are entirely different with no similarity what so ever! I am amused as to how you even claimed such a thing. I will briefly explain why both are entirely different-
1) Brahmos is a liquid fueled ramjet missile with range 600km(MTCR limited to 300kms) whereas K-15 is an entirely solid fueled twin stage missile with variable range depending on trajectory and payload.

2)Both the missiles have been designed by two different institutes--with no IPR sharing--in fact to this day the "IPR related to engines" of brahmos are with Russia. Brahmos is a modified P-800 whereas K-15 is an entirely new solid fueled SLBM designed by DRDL/ASL/RCI.

3)K-15 is not a cruise missile--I repeat--it is not a cruise missile. Those Indian journalists reporting such a fancy claim do not know what a cruise missile is. It is a solid fueled SLBM thats all--in fact it was India's first attempt at designing a SLBM and related launch technologies hence a conservative range. In all likelyhood,K-4 with range of 3500km will form the primary armament of INS Arihant.

4)India is now mostly focusing on designing bigger SLBMs with ranges of 6000+kms(K-5 etc). This project has succeeded Agni-5 project in terms of priority.

Most of the design is there. Supersonic Cruise missile, on top of a solid fueled booster.

And btw,designing a reliable liquid ramjet/scramjet is not as easy as you think. Ask those who have worked on Ramjet projects. Just because they dont have any movable parts doesnt mean they are very easy to design.Of course their design is far simpler than a gas turbine but still there are issues associated with "sustaining" the combustion in the combustion chamber.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Yes, BUT our 'enemy' is MASSIVE.


The Babur only has limited range and payload.

yes we can increases its range incrementally and for backup we have land based BM for that purpose understand bro

 

[Hassan Guy]

yes we can increases its range incrementally and for backup we have land based BM for that purpose understand bro

That is a great stratedgy and it can work(I understand),

But to be on the safe side it would be great to have a few SSBN's - then NO ONE will ever think of attacking Pakistan.
Because of its assured 2nd strike capability.

 

[Cookie Monster]

but our enemy is not 8000 Km away, our enemy is in our next doorbro BM has Big IR and radar RCS can easily be intercepted at mid-course before bus releases MIRV warheads, CM is much better than SLBM if we increases its range to 1500-2000 Km

U might wanna lay off of those "wall hitting" emojis and stick to facts as that's the only way u can make a convincing argument.

First yes India is right next door but don't forget that India is huge. Let's assume that the stated range of Babur 3 is true(450 km...I'm not going to speculate that it has a longer range). If it's launched from a submarine, which will have to be a considerable distance away from the coast(let's say a 100 miles out) that gives Babur 3 a pentration of just 350km inland into India. This puts a considerable amount of targets out of reach and leaves all of Northern India unharmed.

The longest range a subsonic cruise missile can reach at the time is somewhere around 1000-1500km and not the 1500-2000km that u claim. To achieve that kind of a range that u mentioned with a cruise missile it would have to be a supersonic one.

As for the IR signature and RCS that u mentioned about a ballistic missile
So u don't think that cruise missiles have a comparable IR signature? I m not even going to bother explaining this further.

The reason why ABMs are more effective against conventional ballistic missiles is bcuz they follow a parabolic trajectory and once u have detected the position and speed of it u can calculate where it's going to be and intercept it.

There are two ways of detecting ballistic missiles.
1) radar detection. This method usually detects a missile after re-entry
2) satellite detection. This method can detect it when it's launched.

Now let's look at ABMs. So far ABMs aren't as effective as u made them in ur post. There's ways of defeating them. The most effective way however would be MIRV. Basically one missile carries multiple re-entry vehicles. So even in the presence of the most effective of ABMs it's highly likely that it wouldn't be able to intercept all of them and the target will be destroyed.

The goal of a second strike capability(from submarines) is to be able to destroy the enemy completely after the first strike capability(from land) has been neutralized. This complete destruction cannot be achieved with cruise missiles. Ballistic missiles are required.

 

[Hassan Guy]

U might wanna lay off of those "wall hitting" emojis and stick to facts as that's the only way u cab make a convincing argument.

First yes India is right next door but don't forget that India is huge. Let's assume that the stated range of Babur 3 is true(450 km...I'm not going to speculate that it has a longer range). If it's launched from a submarine, which will have to be a considerable distance away from the coast(let's say a 100 miles out) that gives Babur 3 a pentration of just 350km inland into India. This puts a considerable amount of targets out of reach and leaving all of Northern India unharmed.

The longest range a subsonic cruise missile can reach at the time us somewhere around 1000-1500km and not the 1500-2000km that u claim. To achieve that kind of a range that u mentioned with a cruise missile it would have to be a supersonic one.

As for the IR signature and RCS that u mentioned about a ballistic missile
So u don't think that cruise missiles have a comparable IR signature? I m not even going to bother explaining this further.

The reason why ABMs are more effective against conventional ballistic missiles is bcuz they follow a parabolic trajectory and once u have detected the position and speed of it u can calculate where it's going to be and intercept it.

There are two ways of detecting ballistic missiles.
1) radar detection. This method usually detects a missile after re-entry
2) satellite detection. This method can detect it when it's launched.

Now let's look at ABMs. So far ABMs aren't as effective as u made them in ur post. There's ways of defeating them. The most effective way however would be MIRV. Basically one missile carries multiple re-entry vehicles. So even in the presence of the most effective of ABMs it's highly likely that it wouldn't be able to intercept all of them and the target will be destroyed.

The goal of a second strike capability(from submarines) is to be able to destroy the enemy completely after the first strike capability(from land) has been neutralized. This complete destruction cannot be achieved with cruise missiles. Ballistic missiles are required.

give this man a positive rating.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

If the PN begins on building its own missile similar to the Indian K-15 (which is based on the brahmo) it doesnt have to look to far then the current Chinese CX-1 missile. Most of the design is there. Supersonic Cruise missile, on top of a solid fueled booster.

http://s40.photobucket.com/user/idrworg/media/Brahmoscx1_zps1756528d.jpg.html
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5NbNEDO4rR0/VF82yiX6rHI/AAAAAAAAkQI/VGSMixDlcIM/s1600/Meet+Sino-BrahMos+Chinese+CX-1+Ramjet+Supersonic+Anti-Ship+Cruise+Missile+EXPORT+TO+PAKISTAN+IRAN++(2).jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3949/15733902855_b0e7cec67b_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3941/15710102116_160be870d0_b.jpg

Kindly learn the difference btw Ballistic Missiles and Cruise missiles before making dumb points pls.

 

[The Deterrent]

SLBM is on the way. The Chinese subs we are getting will carry 3 SLBM per boat.

How do you figure that?

 

[Cookie Monster]

It's another think that UK spending Billion Pound a boat to build Astute class subs which can only carry Tomahawk SLCMs in numbers.
So not that useless they are.

Master Yoda

SLBM is on the way. The Chinese subs we are getting will carry 3 SLBM per boat.

Any source? Also why 3 SLBMs per boat...that just seems like a very low number.

 

[Ultima Thule]

That is a great stratedgy and it can work(I understand),

But to be on the safe side it would be great to have a few SSBN's - then NO ONE will ever think of attacking Pakistan.
Because of its assured 2nd strike capability.

You think development of SSBN is that easy bro its complex project we should develop SSN than SSGN with VLS and than SSBN