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AWAKEN The Ideology of Pakistan - Allama Iqbal's Philosophy and Modern Pakistan

if allama iqbal was pan islamist how can he be against the creation of pakistan, ridiculous indeed

Allama Iqbal (rah) came up with the concept of Pakistan, and was one of Pakistan's founding fathers. He is one of Pakistan's greatest heros, and was one of the most influencial Pakistanis, he sacrificed much of his life in order to fight for the cause of Pakistan, and in the end the dream of an independant Pakistan came true, and Allama Iqbal (rah) has a huge contribution in the founding of Pakistan... We will never forget this great Pakistani, Insha Allah! :pakistan:
 
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Again have both of you read his 1930 speech in his entirety? There are plenty of his speeches and written works where he talks of Indian Muslims and refers himself as Indian, but how many of his speech talk about Pakistan or TWT. I would be obliged if you can let me know this.

In fact, as s90 also agreed, the time when he did mention about Pakistan scheme he actually said he was against it. Chaudry Rahmat Ali was the first person to come up with the concrete conception of Pakistan as a separate political entity in NW British India.

"Islamist" has become a cliched term, so let me clarify what I mean. If Islamist means (as it is generally and wrongly in IMO referred to nowadays) for proponents who want to implement Islam by the use of political force in a top down approach), this is wrong and this is not what any traditional school of thought or Iqbal implied. I prefer to use religious nationalist instead of Islamist as that is more generic and in no way should this be seen as something being close to Islamic teachings.

However, if by pan-Islamist it means a person who has care and concern for Muslims around the world and concern for Islam as a spiritual/universal religion and way of life, then yes of course I will agree with you.
But right now--in popular context--- this refers to people who use Islam as a means of getting political power alone. Where legitimate grievances of Muslims is just a tool to whip up masses for their end goal. Please note that Iqbal never used such words to describe himself. Its a label by those Muslim religious nationalist who want to co-opt him. These people use the Quran and hadith of the prophet - wrongly- for the same purpose, so this is not surprising.

And by the way, claiming that Iqbal was a "pan-Islamist" if its taken without its negative political overtones is actually goes against the fact that he would be for Pakistan because that would restrict Islam in specific boundaries. And unfortunately that is the problem with most (not all) Pakistanis who claim Pakistan state to be thekedar of Islam.

If someone talks against GoP or army/intelligence policies, he is not only labeled anti-national (which could be understandable) but a munafiq and kafir. This leaves any logic and sane rational arguments and discussion thrown out the window.

Again read the 1930 speech, see what he envisaged the relations to be between Muslim majority and Muslim minority states. The emphasis on common defense, foreign policy e.t.c. Read the 1930 speech first and then tell me if I posted anything wrong here. Don't just speak with emotions and name calling. You can deny all you want but the facts wont change.
 
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Why are you repeating yourself? Your arguements are absurd as I have mentioned earlier. Allama Iqbal was a Pakistani, and one of our forefathers...

His two-nation theory consisted of a seperate Muslim state in what was at the time North-west British India.

Honestly, you are delusional if you think this (and I am being completely reasonable with my use of words here). Allama Iqbal (rah) was a staunch proponent of an independant Pakistan. You can't deny this, this is a historical fact. Like George Washington fought against British tyranny in the America's and Abraham Lincoln fought against the Confederate states, you can not distort history like this. You Indian nationalists are a shameless bunch who pervert history for your own self interests. And when I provided you with firm and irrefutable proofs, you simply ignore them and do not respond in an adequate manner!

Allama Iqbal (rah) as I have said many times was one of Pakistan's great founding fathers, and spent much of his life in servitude to the cause of an independant Pakistan.

Unlike you, I actually know about Allama Iqbal (rah), I have studied his life and works, and it is clearer than the sun on hot summer's day that what I am saying is truth!

You have exposed your ignorance in your first comment, where you disregard the entire video within 3 minutes, and instead of watching it, you use pre-conceived notions to justify your ignorant comments.

You are doing the same thing here. Allama Iqbal has said in many speeches and writings that he demanded an independant Pakistan, and your fabrication of what he meant is a complete distortion of the truth.

Allama Iqbal's presidential address to the Muslim League on December 29, 1930 is the first call for an independant nation for Muslims, commonly referred as the two-nation theory, which would eventually become Pakistan.

Sadly foolish people like you do not understand Iqbal and what he stood for. Till his death bed he was a pan-Islamist. He dreamt of an independant Pakistan, and will always be remembered as a great Pakistani theologian, thinker, philosopher, and poet. :pakistan:
 
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^^ Again extensive name calling. You are going completely off tangent now. Did you fully read my post after I watched the entire speech and qualified my first post? I mentioned that I after listening the first few minutes of video 2 I had an opinion but I again listened to the entire speech which didn't change my initial opinion.

Have you read his 1930 speech in its entirety? Just answer this one question

Show me where he mentions Pakistan. He in fact has a full section called Muslim India within India in his speech. Read the conclusion where he exhorts the people to not think about the current situation as just Muslims but as Indian Muslims.

If Pakistan truly follows the ideals that Iqbal wrote about for Muslims in India. I think that would be an excellent development. But only if his views are faithfully followed.

Anyways, if you actually read the 1930 speech that I linked and want to discuss that's fine. But if you want to keep you eyes shut to the reality then this is it from me.

Besides, his supporting or not supporting of Pakistan is only one aspect. Why not follow his vision that he had for Muslim majority states? There is nothing wrong in following that, provided you read what he said about it.

And in case you can't find that link. Here it is again.
Presidential Address, annual session of the All-India Muslim League, Allahabad, December 1930, by Sir Muhammad Iqbal
 
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^^ Again extensive name calling. You are going completely off tangent now. Did you fully read my post after I watched the entire speech and qualified my first post? I mentioned that I after listening the first few minutes of video 2 I had an opinion but I again listened to the entire speech which didn't change my initial opinion.

Have you read his 1930 speech in its entirety? Just answer this one question

Show me where he mentions Pakistan. He in fact has a full section called Muslim India within India in his speech. Read the conclusion where he exhorts the people to not think about the current situation as just Muslims but as Indian Muslims.

If Pakistan truly follows the ideals that Iqbal wrote about for Muslims in India. I think that would be an excellent development. But only if his views are faithfully followed.

Anyways, if you actually read the 1930 speech that I linked and want to discuss that's fine. But if you want to keep you eyes shut to the reality then this is it from me.

Besides, his supporting or not supporting of Pakistan is only one aspect. Why not follow his vision that he had for Muslim majority states? There is nothing wrong in following that, provided you read what he said about it.

And in case you can't find that link. Here it is again.
Presidential Address, annual session of the All-India Muslim League, Allahabad, December 1930, by Sir Muhammad Iqbal

Pakistan didn't even become an independant country in 1930, and the name "Pakistan" didn't come until later. You are missing the entire point. Allama Iqbal is obviously going to refer to the Muslims of that place and time as "Indians" because Pakistan at that time was a part of British-India. Are you forgetting that Jinnah too was a part of the All India Muslim League? Historically Pakistan is a part of "Hind," even in your national anthem there is mention of Sindh (which is entirely located within Pakistan), and of Punjab (most of it resides in Pakistan).

You quote 1 speech in 1930, and come up with ludacris and false conclusions from it. You fail to counter the claims of various other times where Allama Iqbal (rah) clearly detailed his vision of a sovereign nation for the Muslims of British-India, that vision would become a vision of Pakistan, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

You asked where he mentioned Pakistan in the 1930 speech, well he did here:

"I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Provinces, Sind and Baluchistan into a single State. Self-Government within the British Empire or without the British Empire. The formation of the consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of the North-West India."


Muffakir-e-Pakistan, Allama Iqbal, was a staunch proponent of an Independant Muslim state and the two-nation theory!

Iqbal elucidated to Jinnah his vision of a SEPERATE Muslim state in a letter sent on June 21, 1937:

"A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are."


Allama Iqbal's statement explaining the attitude of Muslim delegates to the Round-Table Conference issued in December, 1933 was a rejoinder to Jawahar Lal Nehru's statement. Nehru had said that the attitude of the Muslim delegation was based on "reactionarism." Iqbal concluded his rejoinder with:

In conclusion I must put a straight question to punadi Jawhar Lal, how is India's problem to be solved if the majority community will neither concede the minimum safeguards necessary for the protection of a minority of 80 million people, nor accept the award of a third party; but continue to talk of a kind of nationalism which works out only to its own benefit? This position can admit of only two alternatives. Either the Indian majority community will have to accept for itself the permanent position of an agent of British imperialism in the East, or the country will have to be redistributed on a basis of religious, historical and cultural affinities so as to do away with the question of electorates and the communal problem in its present form.



Speaking about the political future of Muslims in India, Iqbal said:

"There is only one way out. Muslims should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it, our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defense of our national existence.... The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims."

Iqbal firmly believed that Jinnah was the only leader capable of drawing Indian Muslims to the League and maintaining party unity before the British and the Congress:

"I know you are a busy man but I do hope you won't mind my writing to you often, as you are the only Muslim in India today to whom the community has right to look up for safe guidance through the storm which is coming to North-West India and, perhaps, to the whole of India."

The last quote is especially important, because it details Allama Iqbal's vision and foresight that he had.

In the beginning of Asrar-E-Khudi, Allama Iqbal clearly details that he has insight into the future, and that his works are not for the people of his current era but the people of later on. Allama Iqbal worked long and hard and strived for an independant Pakistan, because he knew the greatness that would come out of it.
 
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Indian Muslims need an excuse to justify their Action of not Moving to Pakistan.

1930 is 10 years when Pakistan resolution was Passed so what ???

Quaid was a Part of Congress so what ??


1940 is the Bench mark of Pakistan resolution and this is where it really Kicked on.
 
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Again did you read his entire speech? You are not the first person to be mistaken by reading the just one line from his speech and forming an opinion. His professor in Cambridge said the same. But he clarified later that is not the case.

Here is a Pakistani historian on an old geo show saying the same thing


Allahabad Address - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/37025-iqbals-letter-daily-times-london.html

In the 1932 Chaudry Rahmat Ali came up with the Pakistan scheme and later published his pamphlet Now or Never. Upon being associated with his scheme, Iqbal denied that he supported it. For people who say that there was no Pakistan till 1940, they belittle Chary Rahmat Ali's contribution who actually articulated the Pakistan schme back in 1932. Ofcourse that also proves that Iqbal knew about this scheme but he still did not support and rather wrote open letters and private ones denying this is what he meant in his 1930 speech.

Anyways, I have made my point. You can read more about this in the book Iqbal and the case for Pakistan: A disclaimer That has at least 8 letters written to various people that argues the same point of view that have been published there.


The historical context was in India there was no muslim majority province. Punjab and Bengal had a slim ~54-55% majority. Sindh was combined with Bombay. NWFP had an agency status and so did Balochistan. While there were clear Hindu majority provinces in UP CP and Madras as well as NE and Bombay.

He wanted a redistribution of states where more than one province would have a clear muslim majority. This would have happened in any case when Sindh was separated NWFP was declared a province and Baluchistan was added as well. That would make a total of five muslim majoirty provinces. Unfortunately he died before these could be implemented. He wanted muslim majority states WITHIN India as a union. What else does a common defense, external affairs policy e.t.c. mean?

Jinnah also did not advocate this until 1940. But even the Pakistan that he envisioned was a country that would have friendly relations like Canada and US.


Iqbal's other works are for all muslims and infact all of humanity. But reading Asrar-e-khudi you can't tell what he wanted about Pakistan. To find out, read his letters where he explicitly talks about it. Its upto you if you want to hide or own up the history, cause you can hide history for yourself but history won't keep hiding it for you from others.
 
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Again did you read his entire speech? You are not the first person to be mistaken by reading the just one line from his speech and forming an opinion. His professor in Cambridge said the same. But he clarified later that is not the case.

Here is a Pakistani historian on an old geo show saying the same thing
YouTube - Allama Iqbal did not see the dream of Independent Pakistan


Allahabad Address - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/37025-iqbals-letter-daily-times-london.html

In the 1932 Chaudry Rahmat Ali came up with the Pakistan scheme and later published his pamphlet Now or Never. Upon being associated with his scheme, Iqbal denied that he supported it. For people who say that there was no Pakistan till 1940, they belittle Chary Rahmat Ali's contribution who actually articulated the Pakistan schme back in 1932. Ofcourse that also proves that Iqbal knew about this scheme but he still did not support and rather wrote open letters and private ones denying this is what he meant in his 1930 speech.

Anyways, I have made my point. You can read more about this in the book Iqbal and the case for Pakistan: A disclaimer That has at least 8 letters written to various people that argues the same point of view that have been published there.


The historical context was in India there was no muslim majority province. Punjab and Bengal had a slim ~54-55% majority. Sindh was combined with Bombay. NWFP had an agency status and so did Balochistan. While there were clear Hindu majority provinces in UP CP and Madras as well as NE and Bombay.

He wanted a redistribution of states where more than one province would have a clear muslim majority. This would have happened in any case when Sindh was separated NWFP was declared a province and Baluchistan was added as well. That would make a total of five muslim majoirty provinces. Unfortunately he died before these could be implemented. He wanted muslim majority states WITHIN India as a union. What else does a common defense, external affairs policy e.t.c. mean?

Jinnah also did not advocate this until 1940. But even the Pakistan that he envisioned was a country that would have friendly relations like Canada and US.


Iqbal's other works are for all muslims and infact all of humanity. But reading Asrar-e-khudi you can't tell what he wanted about Pakistan. To find out, read his letters where he explicitly talks about it. Its upto you if you want to hide or own up the history, cause you can hide history for yourself but history won't keep hiding it for you from others.

Allama Iqbal came up with the concept of a seperate state of Muslims, as emphasized in the 1930 address. His idea of a seperate Punjab, Sindh, NWFP, and Balochistan would become a reality, but not as a province of British-India, but as an independant nation called Pakistan.

When Allama Iqbal meant a seperate province, he was clearly referring it to be a part of British-India, not the modern Republic of India. At that time, South-Asia was under the rule of the British, and the concept of a seperate country in North-west British India would not be emphasized until later. But it was Allama Iqbal (rah) that came up with the concept of a seperate nation within North-west British-India, at first he may have seen that as a seperate province within British-India, but when the British decided to leave, and was going to leave the power to the Hindu congress, the idea of a seperate province within British-India could not happen. The congress would never allow it, and the persecution of the Muslims by the Hindus would continue.

In many of the quotes, Allama Iqbal emphasized the importance of Jinnah's leadership, and desired a seperate nation within the North-west that would adhere to Islamic law, values, principals, morals, etc. This couldn't happen as a state with provincial autonomy, but as a seperate nation. Although things may have turned out differently than what Iqbal said in 1930 due to the political climate, the idea of a seperate nation still persisted.

Historically Pakistan is a part of "Hind" or Historical India (NOT the Republic of India, because there is a huge difference). And Iqbal's idea of a seperate Muslim state within the North-West was achieved, the only difference was that it would not be a part of British-India.

As for the video, you are foolish to even post something as ridiculous as that.

It is just a repitition of a single phrase said over and over again. It is taken out of context and lacks credibility.
 
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Source: Iqbal and Pakistan Movement

IQBAL AND PAKISTAN MOVEMENT

Although his main interests were scholarly, Iqbal was not unconcerned with the political situation of the, country and the political fortunes of the Muslim community of India. Already in 1908, while in England, he had been chosen as a member of the executive council of the newly-established British branch of the Indian Muslim League. In 1931 and 1932 he represented the Muslims of India in the Round Table Conferences held in England to discuss the issue of the political future of India. And in a 1930 lecture Iqbal suggested the creation of a separate homeland for the Muslims of India. Iqbal died (1938) before the creation of Pakistan (1947), but it was his teaching that "spiritually ... has been the chief force behind the creation of Pakistan."

Iqbal joined the London branch of the All India Muslim League while he was studying Law and Philosophy in England. It was in London when he had a mystical experience. The ghazal containing those divinations is the only one whose year and month of composition is expressly mentioned. It is March 1907. No other ghazal, before or after it has been given such importance. Some verses of that ghazal are:

Your civilization will commit suicide with its
own daggers.
A nest built on a frail bough cannot be
durable.

The caravan of feeble ants will take the rose
petal for a boat
And inspite of all blasts of waves, it shall cross
the river.

I will take out may worn-out caravan in the
pitch darkness of night.
My sighs will emit sparks and my breath will
produce flames.

For Iqbal it was a divinely inspired insight. He disclosed this to his listeners in December 1931, when he was invited to Cambridge to address the students. Iqbal was in London, participating in the Second Round Table Conference in 1931. At Cambridge, he referred to what he had proclaimed in 1906:

I would like to offer a few pieces of advice to the youngmen who are at present studying at Cambridge ...... I advise you to guard against atheism and materialism. The biggest blunder made by Europe was the separation of Church and State. This deprived their culture of moral soul and diverted it to the atheistic materialism. I had twenty-five years ago seen through the drawbacks of this civilization and therefore had made some prophecies. They had been delivered by my tongue although I did not quite understand them. This happened in 1907..... After six or seven years, my prophecies came true, word by word. The European war of 1914 was an outcome of the aforesaid mistakes made by the European nations in the separation of the Church and the State.

Building upon Sir Sayyid Ahmed's two-nation theory, absorbing the teaching of Shibli, Ameer Ali, Hasrat Mohani and other great Indian Muslim thinkers and politicians, listening to Hindu and British voices, and watching the fermenting Indian scene closely for approximately 60 years, he knew and ultimately convinced his people and their leaders, particularly Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah that:

"We both are exiles in this land. Both longing for
our dear home's sight!"

"That dear home is Pakistan, on which he harpened like a flute-player, but whose birth he did not witness."

Iqbal and Politics
These thoughts crystallised at Allahabad Session (December, 1930) of the All India Muslim League, when Iqbal in the Presidential Address, forwarded the idea of a Muslim State in India:

I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Provinces, Sind and Baluchistan into a single State. Self-Government within the British Empire or without the British Empire. The formation of the consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of the North-West India.

The seed sown, the idea began to evolve and take root. It soon assumed the shape of Muslim state or states in the western and eastern Muslim majority zones as is obvious from the following lines of Iqbal's letter, of June 21, 1937, to the Quaid-i Azam, only ten months before the former's death:

A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are.

There are some critics of Allama Iqbal who assume that after delivering the Allahbad Address he had slept over the idea of a Muslim State. Nothing is farther from the truth. The idea remained always alive in his mind. It had naturally to mature and hence, had to take time. He was sure that the Muslims of sub-continent were going to achieve an independent homeland for themselves. On 21st March, 1932, Allama Iqbal delivered the Presidential address at Lahore at the annual session of the All-India Muslim Conference. In that address too he stressed his view regarding nationalism in India and commented on the plight of the Muslims under the circumstances prevailing in the sub-continent. Having attended the Second Round Table Conference in September, 1931 in London, he was keenly aware of the deep-seated Hindu and Sikh prejudice and unaccommodating attitude. He had observed the mind of the British Government. Hence he reiterated his apprehensions and suggested safeguards in respect of the Indian Muslims:

In so far then as the fundamentals of our policy are concerned, I have got nothing fresh to offer. Regarding these I have already expressed my views in my address to the All India Muslim League. In the present address I propose, among other things, to help you, in the first place, in arriving at a correct view of the situation as it emerged from a rather hesitating behavior of our delegation the final stages of the Round-Table Conference. In the second place, I shall try, according to my lights to show how far it is desirable to construct a fresh policy now that the Premier's announcement at the last London Conference has again necessitated a careful survey of the whole situation.

It must be kept in mind that since Maulana Muhammad Ali had died in Jan. 1931 and Quaid-i Azam had stayed behind in London, the responsibility of providing a proper lead to the Indian Muslims had fallen on him alone. He had to assume the role of a jealous guardian of his nation till Quaid-i Azam returned to the sub-continent in 1935.

The League and the Muslim Conference had become the play-thing of petty leaders, who would not resign office, even after a vote of non-confidence! And, of course, they had no organization in the provinces and no influence with the masses.

During the Third Round-Table Conference, Iqbal was invited by the London National League where he addressed an audience which included among others, foreign diplomats, members of the House of Commons, Members of the House of Lords and Muslim members of the R.T.C. delegation. In that gathering he dilated upon the situation of the Indian Muslims. He explained why he wanted the communal settlement first and then the constitutional reforms. He stressed the need for provincial autonomy because autonomy gave the Muslim majority provinces some power to safeguard their rights, cultural traditions and religion. Under the central Government the Muslims were bound to lose their cultural and religious entity at the hands of the overwhelming Hindu majority. He referred to what he had said at Allahabad in 1930 and reiterated his belief that before long people were bound to come round to his viewpoint based on cogent reason.

In his dialogue with Dr. Ambedkar Allama Iqbal expressed his desire to see Indian provinces as autonomous units under the direct control of the British Government and with no central Indian Government. He envisaged autonomous Muslim Provinces in India. Under one Indian union he feared for Muslims, who would suffer in many respects especially with regard to their existentially separate entity as Muslims.

Allama Iqbal's statement explaining the attitude of Muslim delegates to the Round-Table Conference issued in December, 1933 was a rejoinder to Jawahar Lal Nehru's statement. Nehru had said that the attitude of the Muslim delegation was based on "reactionarism." Iqbal concluded his rejoinder with:

In conclusion I must put a straight question to punadi Jawhar Lal, how is India's problem to be solved if the majority community will neither concede the minimum safeguards necessary for the protection of a minority of 80 million people, nor accept the award of a third party; but continue to talk of a kind of nationalism which works out only to its own benefit? This position can admit of only two alternatives. Either the Indian majority community will have to accept for itself the permanent position of an agent of British imperialism in the East, or the country will have to be redistributed on a basis of religious, historical and cultural affinities so as to do away with the question of electorates and the communal problem in its present form.

Allama Iqbal's apprehensions were borne out by the Hindu Congress ministries established in Hindu majority province under the Act of 1935. Muslims in those provinces were given dastardly treatment. This deplorable phenomenon added to Allama Iqbal's misgivings regarding the future of Indian Muslims in case India remained united. In his letters to the Quaid-i Azam written in 1936 and in 1937 he referred to an independent Muslim State comprising North-Western and Eastern Muslim majority zones. Now it was not only the North-Western zones alluded to in the Allahabad Address.

There are some within Pakistan and without, who insist that Allama Iqbal never meant a sovereign Muslim country outside India. Rather he desired a Muslim State within the Indian Union. A State within a State. This is absolutely wrong. What he meant was understood very vividly by his Muslim compatriots as well as the non-Muslims. Why Nehru and others had then tried to show that the idea of Muslim nationalism had no basis at all. Nehru stated:

This idea of a Muslim nation is the figment of a few imaginations only, and, but for the publicity given to it by the Press few people would have heard of it. And even if many people believed in it, it would still vanish at the touch of reality.

Iqbal and the Quaid-i Azam
Who could understand Allama Iqbal better than the Quaid-i Azam himself, who was his awaited "Guide of the Era"? The Quaid-i Azam in the Introduction to Allama Iqbal's letters addressed to him, admitted that he had agreed with Allama Iqbal regarding a State for Indian Muslims before the latters death in April, 1938. The Quaid stated:

His views were substantially in consonance with my own and had finally led me to the same conclusions as a result of careful examination and study of the constitutional problems facing India and found expression in due course in the united will of Muslim India as adumbrated in the Lahore Resolution of the All-India Muslim League popularly known as the "Pakistan Resolution" passed on 23rd March, 1940.

Furthermore, it was Allama Iqbal who called upon Quaid-i Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah to lead the Muslims of India to their cherished goal. He preferred the Quaid to other more experienced Muslim leaders such as Sir Aga Khan, Maulana Hasrat Mohani, Nawab Muhammad Isma il Khan, Maulana Shaukat Ali, Nawab Hamid Ullah Khan of Bhopal, Sir Ali Imam, Maulvi Tameez ud-Din Khan, Maulana Abul Kalam, Allama al-Mashriqi and others. But Allama Iqbal had his own reasons. He had found his "Khizr-i Rah", the veiled guide in Quaid-i Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah who was destined to lead the Indian branch of the Muslim Ummah to their goal of freedom. Allama Iqbal stated:

I know you are a busy man but I do hope you won't mind my writing to you often, as you are the only Muslim in India today to whom the community has right to look up for safe guidance through the storm which is coming to North-West India, and perhaps to the whole of India.

Similar sentiments were expressed by him about three months before his death. Sayyid Nazir Niazi in his book Iqbal Ke Huzur, has stated that the future of the Indian Muslims was being discussed and a tenor of pessimism was visible from what his friends said. At this Allama Iqbal observed:

There is only one way out. Muslim should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defence of our national existence.

He continued:

The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims.

Matlub ul-Hasan Sayyid stated that after the Lahore Resolution was passed on March 23, 1940, the Quaid-i Azam said to him:

Iqbal is no more amongst us, but had he been alive he would have been happy to know that we did exactly what he wanted us to do.

But the matter does not end here. Allama Iqbal in his letter of March 29, 1937 to the Quaid-i Azam had said:

While we are ready to cooperate with other progressive parties in the country, we must not ignore the fact that the whole future of Islam as a moral and political force in Asia rests very largely on a complete organization of Indian Muslims.

According to Allama Iqbal the future of Islam as a moral and political force not only in India but in the whole of Asia rested on the organization of the Muslims of India led by the Quaid-i Azam.

The "Guide of the Era" Iqbal had envisaged in 1926, was found in the person of Muhammad Ali Jinnah. The "Guide" organized the Muslims of India under the banner of the Muslim League and offered determined resistance to both the Hindu and the English designs for a united Hindu-dominated India. Through their united efforts under the able guidance of Quaid-I Azam Muslims succeeded in dividing India into Pakistan and Bharat and achieving their independent homeland. As observed above, in Allama Iqbal's view, the organization of Indian Muslims which achieved Pakistan would also have to defend other Muslim societies in Asia. The carvan of the resurgence of Islam has to start and come out of this Valley, far off from the centre of the ummah. Let us see how and when, Pakistan prepares itself to shoulder this august responsibility. It is Allama Iqbal's prevision.
 
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I saw the second video and listened to a few minutes where he mention that Iqbal wanted a sharia state i.e. a political Islam ideology, he also mentions about Iqbal talking about "Establishing Pakistan" and that was enough to know that Mr. Qadri is also under the same misconception as many people are.

Seeing Qazi Hussain and Hamid gul didn't help in making me feel this is going to be a balanced speech
but directed to use Iqbal to prove that he wanted political Islam ideology.

You really don't have an argument to begin with because you made a final judgment on the issue and speech of Tahir ul Qadri based on your preconceived biases and prejudice attitude towards Qazi Hussain and particularly Gen. Hamid Gul.

Qazi Hussain, Gen Hamid gul, and Dr. Qadri are all different people belonging to different schools of thoughts, and I can safely tell you none of them want a top-down theocratic state for which you accuse them. if that was the case then why would Jamat-e-Islami be a political party and contest elections and play their political game under a democratic setup, which is based on liberal conceptions not conservative/fundamentalists?

Why would Gen Hamid Gul part take in protests to free the judiciary and media (which is mostly based on western judicial system and somewhat on Islamic legal system?

Why would Dr Qadri quit politics and continue with his mission to education the masses and dawah?

The only people who want a turn Pakistan into a top-down theocratic state are the likes of the TTP and Al-Qaeda whom we're waging war against b/c we know approach is abhorrently against the spirit of Islam.

Secondly, your second part of argument revolves on a preconceived notion (also very popular in India and propagated at state level) that Iqbal did not want a separate homeland for muslims. This is once again an act of academic dishonesty and outright lie because you selectively quote a few speeches of Iqbal whilst ignoring the later ones. Iqbal has written on secularism and nationalism extensively. One can take one of his speeches out of context and deduce that Iqbal was infact a secular nationalist. Which is exactly what you're trying to do here, selectively misquoting Iqbal to justify Indian propaganda whose purpose is to actually confuse Pakistanis about their own history and ideology so as to dismember and disfigure the state in the long-run. All of this is synonymous with Indian media/govn't's deliberate pronouncements on Pakistan being a failed state.



Iqbal's has written so extensively on Islam with focus on uplifting the status of the Ummah, no intellectual would deny that he was a pan-Islamist.

His influence led to teh formation of so many Political and philanthropic Islamic groups and Movements, for ex, Tanzeem e Islaam movement of Dr. Israr Ahmed, Tahir ul Qadri's Minhaj ul Quraan, to name a few. and his influence continues to this day in other parts of the muslim world, Iranian revolutionary figures the likes of Khomeine, and even the contemporary Iranian Islamic reformists the likes of Shabasteri and Soroush and ex president of Iran Khatami trace their influence to Iqbal's works.
 
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I see that both of you have still not read the 1930 speech in its entirety. Obviously you are the one who is being dishonest. I don't know why you don't want to read the speech yourself rather than depend on other people's interpretation of the speech.

Some use the excuse that the word Pakistan was not used before 1932. But what about his letters that explicitly deny support of the Pakistan scheme or that his 1930 speech referred to something like the Pakistan scheme.

Be objective not emotional. TTP and AQ also claim that they are influenced by Islam but they don't follow Islamic teachings; so just saying that all these so called political Islamic parties are influenced by Iqbal does not mean that they are following Iqbal
 
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I see that both of you have still not read the 1930 speech in its entirety. Obviously you are the one who is being dishonest. I don't know why you don't want to read the speech yourself rather than depend on other people's interpretation of the speech.

Some use the excuse that the word Pakistan was not used before 1932. But what about his letters that explicitly deny support of the Pakistan scheme or that his 1930 speech referred to something like the Pakistan scheme.

Be objective not emotional. TTP and AQ also claim that they are influenced by Islam but they don't follow Islamic teachings; so just saying that all these so called political Islamic parties are influenced by Iqbal does not mean that they are following Iqbal

You have NO proof to support your argument...not even provided a single quote from Iqbal's 1930 speech that proves your point of view (India's official line) that Iqbal did not envision a separate homeland for Muslims in India.


No one is arguing about the word "Pakistan" which was coined by Ch. Rehmat Ali, this whole debate is about a separate homeland for muslims which was infact envisioned by Iqbal and the proof is infact in the 1930 speech, as he says:

Communalism, is its higher aspect, then, is indispensable to the formation of a harmonious whole in a country like India. The units of Indian society are not territorial as in European countries. India is a continent of human groups belonging to different races, speaking different languages, and professing different religions. Their behavior is not at all determined by a common race consciousness. Even the Hindus do not form a homogenous group.

The principle of European democracy cannot be applied to India without recognizing the fact of communal groups. The Muslim demand for the creation of a Muslim India within India is, therefore, perfectly justified.


Xtremeownage provided various proofs to discount your false Indian propagated views. It's time that you drop Indian line that is based on faulty logic and false information and accept the truth about Pakistan's inception and historical development.
 
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I have already explained what he was demanding - muslim majority provinces/states in India when there were hardly any. A perfectly justified demand and something that the Congress was agreeable to. Of course there was the Hindu Mahasabha who were against it and Congress only wanted the distribution to be under linguistic considerations that would automatically result in Muslim majority provinces as well instead of using religion as a basis.

I did quote parts of the speech but you have ignored it.

Here is a letter that should close this debate once and for all. If you had checked my links you would have seen this. Note the date. It was after Chaudry Rahmat Ali explicitly declared the Pakistan scheme


Dr. Sir Mohd Iqbal, M.A., Ph.D. Barrister-at-Law

Lahore 4 March 1934

My Dear Mr. Thompson,

I have just received your review of my book. It is excellent and I am grateful to you for the very kind things you have said of me. But you have made one mistake which I hasten to point as I consider it rather serious. You call me a protagonist of the scheme called “Pakistan”. Now Pakistan is not my scheme. The one that I suggested in my address is the creation of a Muslim Province – i.e; a province having an overwhelming population of Muslims in the North-West of India. This new province will be, according to my scheme, a part of the proposed Indian Federation. Pakistan scheme proposes a separate federation of Muslim Provinces directly related to England as a separate dominion. This scheme originated in Cambridge. The authors of this scheme believe that we Muslim Round Tablers have sacrificed the Muslim nation on the altar of Hindu or the so called Indian Nationalism.

Yours Sincerely,

Mohammed Iqbal
Allahabad Address - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Allama Iqbal clearly knew about the Pakistan scheme as can be seen from this letter and he still opposed it.


And its not the the "official Indian line" Many people in India are also mistaken about what Iqbal wanted. Some textbooks and history books in India also wrongly call him a protagonist of the Pakistan scheme. But the fact is that even though he was a member of the ML he never advocated such a scheme and in fact opposed it.

So you don't have to worry that this is some Bharti propaganda. Infact, I'm sure many Indian members also would not know about this. I could be wrong
 
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I have already explained what he was demanding - muslim majority provinces/states in India when there were hardly any. A perfectly justified demand and something that the Congress was agreeable to. Of course there was the Hindu Mahasabha who were against it and Congress only wanted the distribution to be under linguistic considerations that would automatically result in Muslim majority provinces as well instead of using religion as a basis.

I did quote parts of the speech but you have ignored it.

Here is a letter that should close this debate once and for all. If you had checked my links you would have seen this. Note the date. It was after Chaudry Rahmat Ali explicitly declared the Pakistan scheme



Allahabad Address - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Allama Iqbal clearly knew about the Pakistan scheme as can be seen from this letter and he still opposed it.


And its not the the "official Indian line" Many people in India are also mistaken about what Iqbal wanted. Some textbooks and history books in India also wrongly call him a protagonist of the Pakistan scheme. But the fact is that even though he was a member of the ML he never advocated such a scheme and in fact opposed it.

So you don't have to worry that this is some Bharti propaganda. Infact, I'm sure many Indian members also would not know about this. I could be wrong

I already responded to this false notion, as I have said earlier, Allama Iqbal at first wanted provincial autonomy of the Muslim states within BRITISH-India, at that time (this was during British occupation).

He did not want an independant state at that time, because it would mean fighting against the British empire, which the Muslims did not have sufficient military power to do as at that time (atleast within the subcontinent)! Also, he may not have endorsed the notion at the time, but he definately did not oppose it.

Allama Iqbal (rah) proposed provincial autonomy at first, so that Muslims may reside within a portion of British-India, and adhere to the principles and values of Islam, as well as follow/implement Islamic law and the Islamic political, economic and judicial system. Instead of living in areas that were under the control of the Hindu Congress.

After world war 2, when the British simply couldn't maintain their large empire and were leaving the subcontinent, they were going to hand over all the power to the Hindu congress, which had a long history of persecuting the Muslims, and enforcing their ideals and values upon the Muslims.

In order to keep the sanctity and sovereignty of the Muslims, and to not fall prey of the barbaric Hindu-congress, the independance of Pakistan was seen as a necessary step. (Note: Jinnah too had the same ideas as Allama Iqbal about provincial autonomy at first, but changed this due to the sudden change of events).

Allama Iqbal (rah) consistently supported Jinnah, and came up with the concept of a SEPERATE nation within the Northwest of BRITISH-India (NOT the modern Republic of India)! He never wanted to be a part of a Hindu dominant nation, and was a staunch proponent of an Islamic state and was a Pan-Islamist!


In 1937, Allama Iqbal (rah) would CHANGE his view from provincial autonomy to that of a seperate nation, due to the changing times.

Iqbal elucidated to Jinnah his vision of a SEPERATE Muslim state in a letter sent on June 21, 1937:

"A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are."

In this quote, Allama Iqbal (rah) clearly changed his views of provincial autonomy to that of a seperate federation! As did Jinnah!

30th october; 1937, Iqbal clearly says that he wants a seperate governments for the North-western states, which means he clearly wants seperation:

"We must carry the work of organisation more vigorously than ever and should not rest till Muslim Governments are established in the five provinces and reforms are granted to Baluchistan."

In the letter (1934), Allama Iqbal at first opposes the idea of a seperate federation, but three years later he endorses it. You must recognize this change in his thinking!

Side Note: I have also explained what Allama Iqbal meant by "India" where he is referring to historical "Hind," which Pakistan is a part of. He is definately NOT referring to the modern Republic of India (Founded August 15th, 1947), and would never have wanted to live or support such a state like modern India (NOT historical India)!

SO why did he change his view from provincial autonomy to a seperate federation? That can be answered with the following:

In 1935, the Government of India Act was introduced. Britain, at this time, had a National Government and progress was made over India purely because Stanley Baldwin, the Tory leader, and Ramsey-MacDonald, the Labour leader, agreed on a joint course of action. Winston Churchill was bitterly opposed to it. The Act introduced:
An elected Indian assembly to have a say in everything in India except defence and foreign affairs.
The eleven provincial assemblies were to have effective full control over local affairs.

The act’s major failing was that it ignored the religious rivalry between the Muslims and Hindus. Nearly two-thirds of India’s population were Hindus and the Muslims feared that in an independent and democratic India they would be treated unfairly. In the 1937 provincial elections, the Hindus, who dominated the Congress Party under Nehru, won eight out of the eleven provinces. The Muslim League under Jinnah demanded a separate state of their own to be called Pakistan.

So the letter you posted written in 1934, where Allama Iqbal (rah) aimed for provincial autonomy (instead of seperation), is countered with a newer quote (1937), where he proposes the idea of a seperate nation, a nation which is "entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are."

Allama Iqbal's views changed in direct correlation to the events between 1935-1937. He no longer saw it as feasible to aim for provincial autonomy, and the era of support for an independant Pakistan unfolded!

As I have said many times, Allama Iqbal (rah) is one of Pakistan's founding fathers, and contributed long and hard towards the struggle for an independant Islamic state, which is now the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Iqbal's support for Jinnah.

"There is only one way out. Muslims should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it, our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defense of our national existence.... The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims."

Matlub ul-Hasan Sayyid stated that after the Lahore Resolution was passed on March 23, 1940, the Quaid-i Azam said to him:

Iqbal is no more amongst us, but had he been alive he would have been happy to know that we did exactly what he wanted us to do.

If you are sincere with your words show me a single quote where Allama Iqbal goes against the idea of creating an independant Pakistan after 1937? Or accept the errors of your way and recognize the truth that I am saying!

If you are not, you can keep on posting the same nonsense...
 
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Also to add on to what I said, if you read the article that I posted above, it counters your false claims clearly:

...Allama Iqbal's apprehensions were borne out by the Hindu Congress ministries established in Hindu majority province under the Act of 1935. Muslims in those provinces were given dastardly treatment. This deplorable phenomenon added to Allama Iqbal's misgivings regarding the future of Indian Muslims in case India remained united. In his letters to the Quaid-i Azam written in 1936 and in 1937 he referred to an independent Muslim State comprising North-Western and Eastern Muslim majority zones. Now it was not only the North-Western zones alluded to in the Allahabad Address.

There are some within Pakistan and without, who insist that Allama Iqbal never meant a sovereign Muslim country outside India. Rather he desired a Muslim State within the Indian Union. A State within a State. This is absolutely wrong. What he meant was understood very vividly by his Muslim compatriots as well as the non-Muslims. Why Nehru and others had then tried to show that the idea of Muslim nationalism had no basis at all. Nehru stated:

This idea of a Muslim nation is the figment of a few imaginations only, and, but for the publicity given to it by the Press few people would have heard of it. And even if many people believed in it, it would still vanish at the touch of reality.
 
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