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AWAKEN The Ideology of Pakistan - Allama Iqbal's Philosophy and Modern Pakistan

And even after you posted this, this delusional Bharathi still implied it was some political stunt :no::rofl::tdown:

PS: I am going to print off the English Translation of The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, the book as described by Tahir Ul Qadri in the video... It seems like an amazing read!

Asrar-E-Khudi was an extremely powerful book (since I read the english translation I am assuming the original Persian would be even more powerful), and opened my eyes to many degrees.

Hopefully Allama Iqbal's book The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, will be a great read too, Insha Allah! ;)

I have been reading Allam Iqbal's poetry and philosphical leaning since last 10 years now. Believe me The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam is tough to understand! It is so much philosphical and requires more than a philosphy background to comprehend. You need a very detailed information about philosphy, religion, politics and social movements besides the mastery of language before you read.

ALLAM IQBAL's vision was for purely an Islamic state deriving its essence from Quran, Ahadiths and based on Sharia. That's for sure.

Now how his and his colleugues efforts are interpreted politically by Indian and Pakistani friends, is a purely an issue of debate, with clear cut political leaning of the respective group(s)!

Fighter
 
Now how his and his colleugues efforts are interpreted politically by Indian and Pakistani friends, is a purely an issue of debate, with clear cut political leaning of the respective group(s)!

Fighter

That comment was a while back, in later posts I clearly exposed EjazR's arguements as fallacious.

The debate was over whether Iqbal wanted provincial autonomy of the North-western states of British-India, or independance.

I have clearly stated that prior to 1935 he wanted provincial-autonomy within British-India, but after the act of 1935, his views changed to that of independance. My last few comments go much further into detail. ;)
 
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After WW2 Allama Iqbal changed his opinion and demanded an independant state?

Did you know that he passed away in 1937? WWII STARTED in 1939!

I appreciate the honest shown by PKKH website in publishing the original letters without tampering with them. But let me remind you that Pakistan scheme was well known since 1933. Iqbal himself was aware of it. He never said anything in favor of it. Even in his later letters he never said anything agreeing to it. All he had to say was the time has now come to support the Pakistan scheme. Did he say that? No.

He wanted full autonomy of the constituent states where the center had minimal involvement and no interference. Why else did he mention five governments in Muslim provinces instead of ONE government if he actually meant a separate independent country. Please note that ML was a party of a few elites even then. It did not have mass muslim support and even in 1946 elections it was able to form governments only in Bengal and Sindh( with the help of a single European member)

Nehru and other Congress leaders were disagreeable to that and assured ML of constitutional guarantees but having a strong center as India is a new and weak country and this would help in nation building.

Infact, in a private letter around 1937 he had mentioned again to a friend that the Pakistan scheme would be disastrous for the muslim community and the hindu community and particularly for Punjab. This is in the book Iqbal and Pakistan: A disclaimer
I will have to fish for that link but I will post it if I can find it. But it would be best to actually buy and read that book.
 
After WW2 Allama Iqbal changed his opinion and demanded an independant state?

Did you know that he passed away in 1937? WWII STARTED in 1939!

I appreciate the honest shown by PKKH website in publishing the original letters without tampering with them. But let me remind you that Pakistan scheme was well known since 1933. Iqbal himself was aware of it. He never said anything in favor of it. Even in his later letters he never said anything agreeing to it. All he had to say was the time has now come to support the Pakistan scheme. Did he say that? No.

He wanted full autonomy of the constituent states where the center had minimal involvement and no interference. Why else did he mention five governments in Muslim provinces instead of ONE government if he actually meant a separate independent country. Please note that ML was a party of a few elites even then. It did not have mass muslim support and even in 1946 elections it was able to form governments only in Bengal and Sindh( with the help of a single European member)

Nehru and other Congress leaders were disagreeable to that and assured ML of constitutional guarantees but having a strong center as India is a new and weak country and this would help in nation building.

Infact, in a private letter around 1937 he had mentioned again to a friend that the Pakistan scheme would be disastrous for the muslim community and the hindu community and particularly for Punjab. This is in the book Iqbal and Pakistan: A disclaimer
I will have to fish for that link but I will post it if I can find it. But it would be best to actually buy and read that book.



Did you even read what I said?

Firstly, Allama Iqbal died in 1938, and I CLEARLY said that Allama Iqbal's views changed in correlation to the events between 1935-1937!

The world war 2 comment was never aimed at Allama Iqbal (rah).

Did you read my full comment? You obviously didn't or simply couldn't comprehend what I said!

I went into vivid detail, and your response is simply ignorant of that!

So as stated, instead of sincerity, you chose ignorance, which is sad and only proves what you are saying lacks coherence and credibility.

I will restate that aspect of my comment here, since you obviously didn't read it or ignored it all together:

In 1937, Allama Iqbal (rah) would CHANGE his view from provincial autonomy to that of a separate nation, due to the changing times.

Iqbal elucidated to Jinnah his vision of a SEPARATE Muslim state in a letter sent on June 21, 1937:


"A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are."
In this quote, Allama Iqbal (rah) clearly changed his views of provincial autonomy to that of a separate federation! As did Jinnah!

30th october; 1937, Iqbal clearly says that he wants a separate governments for the North-western states, which means he clearly wants separation:


"We must carry the work of organisation more vigorously than ever and should not rest till Muslim Governments are established in the five provinces and reforms are granted to Baluchistan."

In the letter (1934), Allama Iqbal at first opposes the idea of a separate federation, but three years later he endorses it. You must recognize this change in his thinking!

Side Note: I have also explained what Allama Iqbal meant by "India" where he is referring to historical "Hind," which Pakistan is a part of. He is definately NOT referring to the modern Republic of India (Founded August 15th, 1947), and would never have wanted to live or support such a state like modern India (NOT historical India)!

SO why did he change his view from provincial autonomy to a separate federation? That can be answered with the following:


In 1935, the Government of India Act was introduced. Britain, at this time, had a National Government and progress was made over India purely because Stanley Baldwin, the Tory leader, and Ramsey-MacDonald, the Labour leader, agreed on a joint course of action. Winston Churchill was bitterly opposed to it. The Act introduced:
An elected Indian assembly to have a say in everything in India except defence and foreign affairs.
The eleven provincial assemblies were to have effective full control over local affairs.

The act’s major failing was that it ignored the religious rivalry between the Muslims and Hindus. Nearly two-thirds of India’s population were Hindus and the Muslims feared that in an independent and democratic India they would be treated unfairly. In the 1937 provincial elections, the Hindus, who dominated the Congress Party under Nehru, won eight out of the eleven provinces. The Muslim League under Jinnah demanded a separate state of their own to be called Pakistan.

So the letter you posted written in 1934, where Allama Iqbal (rah) aimed for provincial autonomy (instead of separation), is countered with 2 newer quotes (1937), where he proposes the idea of a separate nation, a nation which is "entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are."

Side Note: These letters were sent about 10 months and 6 months before Allama Iqbal (rah) died.

Allama Iqbal's views changed in direct correlation to the events between 1935-1937. He no longer saw it as feasible to aim for provincial autonomy, and the era of support for an independant Pakistan unfolded!

As I have said many times, Allama Iqbal (rah) is one of Pakistan's founding fathers, and contributed long and hard towards the struggle for an independant Islamic state, which is now the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Iqbal's support for Jinnah.


"There is only one way out. Muslims should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it, our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defense of our national existence.... The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims."

Matlub ul-Hasan Sayyid stated that after the Lahore Resolution was passed on March 23, 1940, the Quaid-i Azam said to him:


Iqbal is no more amongst us, but had he been alive he would have been happy to know that we did exactly what he wanted us to do.

Just as Jinnah too changed his views from provincial autonomy to that of complete independance, so did Allama Iqbal, before he died!

...Allama Iqbal's apprehensions were borne out by the Hindu Congress ministries established in Hindu majority province under the Act of 1935. Muslims in those provinces were given dastardly treatment. This deplorable phenomenon added to Allama Iqbal's misgivings regarding the future of Indian Muslims in case India remained united. In his letters to the Quaid-i Azam written in 1936 and in 1937 he referred to an independent Muslim State comprising North-Western and Eastern Muslim majority zones. Now it was not only the North-Western zones alluded to in the Allahabad Address.

There are some within Pakistan and without, who insist that Allama Iqbal never meant a sovereign Muslim country outside India. Rather he desired a Muslim State within the Indian Union. A State within a State. This is absolutely wrong. What he meant was understood very vividly by his Muslim compatriots as well as the non-Muslims. Why Nehru and others had then tried to show that the idea of Muslim nationalism had no basis at all. Nehru stated:

This idea of a Muslim nation is the figment of a few imaginations only, and, but for the publicity given to it by the Press few people would have heard of it. And even if many people believed in it, it would still vanish at the touch of reality.

As for the comment about the governments, he clearly said in the first quote of a single and separate federation of the Muslim provinces of Northwest British-India. A statement which rebukes what he said in his letter in 1934. If you know what federation means, you would know that it would be a single nation, but with 5 provincial governments. Stop twisting things in to things that they are not. India itself has a separate government for each of it's province, and one federal government. This is the same situation with Pakistan.

Both of the quotes I gave above, taken from his letters to Jinnah, only 10 and 6 months before his death proves that he was indeed a proponent of an independant nation in the Northwest of British-India. He was against Hindu dominance in India, and proposed a separate state based on the teachings of the holy Prophet (SAW).

At first that state he proposed would be in the form of a provincially autonomous region within British-India, but after the blunders of the Hindus and the English against the Muslims in between 1935-1937, this idea would change from provincial autonomy to that of a completely seperate federation, which would in turn be called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan!


There is only one way out. Muslim should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defence of our national existence...The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims.

- Allama Iqbal

The above quote is from three months before his death, after Jinnah declared he would be fighting for an INDEPENDANT Pakistan. So this is another proof (out of many as I have stated previously) that Allama Iqbal's unconditional support for Jinnah persisted, even after his declaration of an independant Pakistan. Therefore one can easily conclude (alongside his letters in which he clearly states he desires a seperate federation of the North-western provinces) that Allama Iqbal supported the creation of Pakistan, and was a big time proponent of it!
 
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This is my last post as you can't seem to comprehend what I am saying either.

You are basically saying that Iqbal was jumping from one conclusion to another in just a space of 1year or few months which for a person like Allama Iqbal who use to think a lot before he made a policy is not a norm.

Like I said, why did he not say that the time has come to support the Pakistan scheme. It was already there, the concept that a separate country can be created that would have no relation to other parts of British India. All Allama Iqbal had to say was that the time has come to implement the Pakistan scheme.

It was only post 1940s that a huge propaganda machinery was put in place that Iqbal was for the separate country. The last two letters that you mentioned were also published by a league activists in 1943, but these were published in urdu and the translation the word federation was used where simply it could mean government or state (riyasat). Moreover the replies that Jinnah sent were never published.
Many scholars doubt the authenticity of the letter. But even if it is taken at face value. It still does not say that I support the Pakistan scheme now which was already there.

Moreover what about the letter in 1938 where he stated that his position was not the Pakistan scheme as the Pakistan scheme would be a disasted for the "Hindu community, disaster for the muslim community and disaster for Punjab"

Even if if we agree with your viewpoint. What he REALLY wanted was a completely autonomous federated states with absolute Muslim majority as there were very few at that time in 1937-38.
We can say that because of hostile attitude of the Hindu Mahasabha activists who were also Congress members then, he felt that as SECOND option, since the best option is not practicable, have a separate state. Again many historians disagree with this viewpoint. And I'm not talking only about Indian ones here. This includes Pakistani as well. Infact his was the viewpoint of Jinnah as well. This is what Ayesha Jalal in her "the sole spokesman" says as well. That Jinnah never really wanted a partition but wanted to use as a bargaining chip. But later accepted the partition as the Muslim community had been riled up so much that they would now not agree to anything less than a partition.

Now that Pakistan is created, the deed is done. Lets make it stable progressive country. And if you REALLY want to follow the vision of Iqbal and Jinnah vis a vis relations with India, then it would mean to have such good relations that you would have a common defense pact (Iqbal said that muslims of NW India--present day Pakistan---will act as defenders of India), open borders, free trade and a relation like Canada-US. Can you implement the vision Iqbal had for Pakistan re. India? Lets hope you can

Again, I hope you can get the book The idea of Pakistan and Iqbal: A disclaimer. It has multiple sources instead of single point source like Jinnah letters. It includes letters to DIFFERENT people. His speeches as well as private conversations.
 
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This is my last post as you can't seem to comprehend what I am saying either.

You are basically saying that Iqbal was jumping from one conclusion to another in just a space of 1year or few months which for a person like Allama Iqbal who use to think a lot before he made a policy is not a norm.

Like I said, why did he not say that the time has come to support the Pakistan scheme. It was already there, the concept that a separate country can be created that would have no relation to other parts of British India. All Allama Iqbal had to say was that the time has come to implement the Pakistan scheme.

It was only post 1940s that a huge propaganda machinery was put in place that Iqbal was for the separate country. The last two letters that you mentioned were also published by a league activists in 1943, but these were published in urdu and the translation the word federation was used where simply it could mean government or state (riyasat). Moreover the replies that Jinnah sent were never published.
Many scholars doubt the authenticity of the letter. But even if it is taken at face value. It still does not say that I support the Pakistan scheme now which was already there.

Moreover what about the letter in 1938 where he stated that his position was not the Pakistan scheme as the Pakistan scheme would be a disasted for the "Hindu community, disaster for the muslim community and disaster for Punjab"

Even if if we agree with your viewpoint. What he REALLY wanted was a completely autonomous federated states with absolute Muslim majority as there were very few at that time in 1937-38.
We can say that because of hostile attitude of the Hindu Mahasabha activists who were also Congress members then, he felt that as SECOND option, since the best option is not practicable, have a separate state. Again many historians disagree with this viewpoint. And I'm not talking only about Indian ones here. This includes Pakistani as well. Infact his was the viewpoint of Jinnah as well. This is what Ayesha Jalal in her "the sole spokesman" says as well. That Jinnah never really wanted a partition but wanted to use as a bargaining chip. But later accepted the partition as the Muslim community had been riled up so much that they would now not agree to anything less than a partition.

Now that Pakistan is created, the deed is done. Lets make it stable progressive country. And if you REALLY want to follow the vision of Iqbal and Jinnah vis a vis relations with India, then it would mean to have such good relations that you would have a common defense pact (Iqbal said that muslims of NW India--present day Pakistan---will act as defenders of India), open borders, free trade and a relation like Canada-US. Can you implement the vision Iqbal had for Pakistan re. India? Lets hope you can

Again, I hope you can get the book The idea of Pakistan and Iqbal: A disclaimer. It has multiple sources instead of single point source like Jinnah letters. It includes letters to DIFFERENT people. His speeches as well as private conversations.

Lol, why do you keep on repeating yourself? You are not making yourself sound more convincing!

Once again you neglected all of the proofs I have sent you, which proves that you are acting upon your ego, and not for achieving the truth!

As I have stated time after time, his comments of a seperate federation completely changed from 1934 to 1937, and I gave you quite a few quotes to prove my statements!

Allama Iqbal wanted a seperate nation, and supported Jinnah even after he declared an independant Pakistan, and in his letters demanded a seperate federation in the Northwest and Bengal of Muslim.

If you understood English properly, you would see the difference between his views from 1934 to 1937!

Why are you blinded by your Indian nationalism?

And there is no letter in 1938 of him speaking against Pakistan, what you said in an outright lie. There are several letters in 1937 and 1938 which prove his support for an independant Pakistan. Remember: The name of "Pakistan" was not made the official name until much later.

Your failure to counter my statements, and your inability to use facts and reason to prove your false notion makes you once again sound completely absurd.

I have countered your falsity and fallacious statements with truth, if you won't come to terms with reality, then ignorance and neglect for the truth is your final outcome.

Like I have said before Allama Iqbal (rah) is one of Pakistan's founding fathers, he contributed long and hard to make this nation, and we will always remember his contributions as Muffakir-e-Pakistan ("The Thinker of Pakistan"), Insha Allah!
 
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in allahbad allama iqbal clearly stated that he wanted a separate federation of muslims comprising the present provinces of pakistan and est bengal which is bangladesh today..
 
I am sure A.Iqbal never wanted to break up India, he wanted a Muslim state within India.
his father was a Hindu in Kashmir who convert to Islam afterwards.
he even wrote that poem "Sare Jahan Se Acha Hindustan Hamara".
I am just saying what I think.
My cousin did Pakistan history in Pakistani school and they never even spoke about this..or his poem about hindustan....don't know why?
 
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