AW129 Multi-Role Combat Helicopter, Italy ! a replacement of COBRA's?

[JK!]

Mark Sien,

I posted in a thread about AFM magazine a news item which said that reports suggested at least 6 ex Italian CH47C Chinooks have been set aside for resale to the Pakistan army.

Do you have any news or views on this?

Also what other heavy lift helo could Pakistan seriuously consider if not this?

 

[Quwa]

Mark Sien,

I posted in a thread about AFM magazine a news item which said that reports suggested at least 6 ex Italian CH47C Chinooks have been set aside for resale to the Pakistan army.

Do you have any news or views on this?

Also what other heavy lift helo could Pakistan seriuously consider if not this?

PakDef's H Khan told DefenseNews the same thing (the Air Assault Division article). Personally I think the development of proper Air Assault capability is simply a part of the greater focus on asymetrical warfare to neutralize problems taking place in our Western front. It is an excellent investment as it allows us to effectively fight foreign interference during peace-time, but also have that fairly autonomous capability to deal with internal insurgencies during a war with India (remember E.Pakistan).

I think the Air Assault component will increase in size and scope with time; the initial immediate need can be covered by used Chinook, used Cobras and commercially available Bell-412s & 407s. However in the long-term we may look at the new Chinese heavy-lift helicopter (Link). Or perhaps if we're fortunate, we'll have neutral business relations with the Americans and simply procure more Chinooks on a commercial basis.

Nonetheless I think for the attack, light-medium and light roles we may see a different type of focus in Pakistan. In the area of light helicopters I think there is a lot of potential for local production. There are a ton of commercial/civilian requirements as well as fairly big ones within the military. We might buy a simple off the shelf design from China or Europe...or perhaps develop one like India.

The light-medium role filled by the Bell-412 is a bit more complicated. If we're to see huge aviation expansions, then I can see this type being built in Pakistan. Modern options include the Chinese Z-15 and the AW149 IMO...reasonable costs and if military & civilian requirements cross 100, I can see us license producing locally.

The attack helicopter is a wild card IMO. H Khan in the past said that PA wanted 100 attack helicopters in total, and I think we may see some other requirements pop up in the Frontier Corps and Marines. So the NAH would be a good prospect for a local industry.

 

[fatman17]

PakDef's H Khan told DefenseNews the same thing (the Air Assault Division article). Personally I think the development of proper Air Assault capability is simply a part of the greater focus on asymetrical warfare to neutralize problems taking place in our Western front. It is an excellent investment as it allows us to effectively fight foreign interference during peace-time, but also have that fairly autonomous capability to deal with internal insurgencies during a war with India (remember E.Pakistan).

I think the Air Assault component will increase in size and scope with time; the initial immediate need can be covered by used Chinook, used Cobras and commercially available Bell-412s & 407s. However in the long-term we may look at the new Chinese heavy-lift helicopter (Link). Or perhaps if we're fortunate, we'll have neutral business relations with the Americans and simply procure more Chinooks on a commercial basis.

Nonetheless I think for the attack, light-medium and light roles we may see a different type of focus in Pakistan. In the area of light helicopters I think there is a lot of potential for local production. There are a ton of commercial/civilian requirements as well as fairly big ones within the military. We might buy a simple off the shelf design from China or Europe...or perhaps develop one like India.

The light-medium role filled by the Bell-412 is a bit more complicated. If we're to see huge aviation expansions, then I can see this type being built in Pakistan. Modern options include the Chinese Z-15 and the AW149 IMO...reasonable costs and if military & civilian requirements cross 100, I can see us license producing locally.

The attack helicopter is a wild card IMO. H Khan in the past said that PA wanted 100 attack helicopters in total, and I think we may see some other requirements pop up in the Frontier Corps and Marines. So the NAH would be a good prospect for a local industry.

i dont dis-agree with your analysis but what comes to mind is the logistic and depot level maintenance nightmare if different types of systems are inducted. it has to be kept simple. a max of 2-3 types e,g:

med-lift: Mi-17s
armed: Cobras or the chinese variant when available.
light-utility: Bell variants.

there are so many examples of types purchased in limited numbers which are eventually not-in-service due to depot level maintenence issues. prime case being the Lynx-ASWs with the PN, Mi-8s in the early years (now being re-furbished). concept of KISS is important (Keep It Simple Stupid). on the other hand if we can upgrade our depot-level expertise (personnel), then one can be in a position to handle all types.

 

[Quwa]

fatman sir,

I don't entirely disagree with you, especially about the logistical issue...however there are certain things to keep in mind:

1) I was told by multiple people - analysts and officers alike - that in the Pakistani military the concept of intense logistical ease does not exist. In fact, many acquisitions are done based on a need-of-requirement basis, hence the high number of types in service.

2) Secondly, the diverse platforms - especially of different origins - allows us to spread our eggs into many baskets, and gives a lot of flexibility when trying to maintain hardware during embargoes.

3) When we consider the medium-helicopter type, we must consider the requirement of PN; separate PA requirements; separate PAF requirements; the rise of a Civil Emergency Aviation Corps; the advancement of the Frontier Corps, Marines, etc. Bearing all this in mind, while the Mi-171 can fill in a lot of roles, it will not take over key roles such as being a shipborne naval helicopter (PN) and lighter & faster air assault chopper such as say Blackhawk or NH-90.

We should also remember that there is an increasing shift towards local manufacturing in Pakistan. We must ask ourselves whether Russia would release the technology for Mi-17 production to us...or whether China can offer us the WZ-10 with local production. I personally do not know, but I can tell you that each state is looking for its own self-interest and in some terms cannot be trusted.

It therefore falls upon us to ensure we can survive war and sanctions...hence we must locally produce our helicopters. The British-Italian firm AgustaWestland is designing the AW149 as a cheaper - yet still contemporary - alternative to the more expensive NH-90. They are known to offer technology transfer for local manufacture in the customer state...and I am sure Pakistan can muster a fairly large requirement of its own.

The other systems are attack and light utility helicopters...which I think options are available. The NAH for the attack component, and perhaps a joint-venture for a light helicopter with ATE of South Africa.

 

[fatman17]

fair points but i was only giving example for PA. anyways
to your points:
1) we need to build this concept - how long can we continue with need / requirement basis keeping in mind our meagre resources.
2) agree but i feel embargoes will be a thing of the past, lest we dont change our political outlook.
3) agree

shift towards manufacturing is good and it must be encouraged to increase the industrial base of the country and the private sector must be involved more and more. take the example of JF-17, we must be honest, most what Kamra will do is "assemble" the major parts of the a/c except for things like tail-fins and the locally assembled radar (Grifo or Thales) we have a long way to go here. even the AL-Khalid is based on major foreign components "assembled" locally.

 

[JK!]

For a light helicopter I would consider the Agusta Westland AW109 which has had some good success sales wise.

Also for medium lift South Africa has the Oryx which is essentially a Super Puma/ Cougar tailored again to the harsh bush environment.

 

[batmannow]

AW/479/06
19th July 2006
New AW149 Helicopter Details Revealed at Farnborough

Details of the new generation AgustaWestland AW149 7-8 ton multi-role battlefield helicopter have been announced today at the Farnborough International Airshow. The AW149 is AgustaWestland’s answer to growing military and government customer demand for a new generation, affordable, multi-purpose, medium class military helicopter.
The AW149 will widen the AgustaWestland product range offering customers a larger helicopter than the best selling 6.4 ton AW139 helicopter. The AW149 will be optimised for military operations and will be able to carry up to 15 troops in crashworthy seats.
The aircraft features a 5-blade main rotor for low vibration and noise levels and will have a cruise speed of 160 knots. The large cabin for up to 15 troops also features large sliding doors allowing easy access for troops and the loading of large bulky equipment.
The aircraft will be capable of being equipped with a range of weapons on the external carriers for armed escort and armed suppression roles. A range of role equipment will allow the aircraft to be configured for roles such as search and rescue, command and control, medical evacuation and external load lifting.
The fully integrated, open-system avionics architecture, will allow a wide range of customer specific and future mission systems to be integrated. The cockpit display system will utilize large area active matrix liquid crystal displays. In addition to a comprehensive communications and navigation systems the AW149 will be equipped with a fully digital, 4-axis AFCS and an integrated Health and Usage Monitoring System (HUMS).
Designed to meet the latest military and civil certification requirements the AW149 will feature a crashworthy and a damage tolerant airframe and system redundancy to provide high levels of survivability and crashworthiness. A heavy duty wheeled tricycle landing gear will allow operations from unprepared surfaces while providing easy maneuverability on the ground. The crashworthy and self sealing fuel tanks are located behind the main cabin allowing a low level cabin floor for easy loading while providing ample ground clearance for operation from rough terrain.
The AW149 will be capable of single or dual pilot operations in all weathers, day or night, and will have available, as an option, a rotor de-icing system. High levels of ballistic tolerance and optional Defensive Aids Suite (DAS) and weapon systems will give the aircraft the ability to operate safely in high threat environments.


The AW149 will provide military customers with an affordable multi-mission helicopter and will be offered with a range of support solutions to minimize through life support costs.
Main Specification
Crew 1 or 2 pilots
Cabin Seating 12 crashworthy seats with space for equipment
15 crashworthy seats in high density configuration
Cabin Volume 10 m3
Cargo Bay 4 m3
Cruise Speed 160 knots
Range >500 nm with 2 crew and 12 fully equipped troops
Hover Capability Hover Out of Ground Effect @ 6000 ft, 95F at Maximum All Up Weight
Powerplants 2 x 2,000 shp class turboshafts
Per ulteriori


Per ulteriori informazioni:
Geoff Russell Licia Maria Bianchi
AgustaWestland UK AgustaWestland Italy
T: +44 (0) 1935 703556 T: +39 0331 711083
F: +44 (0) 1935 702319

 

[Quwa]

fair points but i was only giving example for PA. anyways
to your points:
1) we need to build this concept - how long can we continue with need / requirement basis keeping in mind our meagre resources.
2) agree but i feel embargoes will be a thing of the past, lest we dont change our political outlook.
3) agree

shift towards manufacturing is good and it must be encouraged to increase the industrial base of the country and the private sector must be involved more and more. take the example of JF-17, we must be honest, most what Kamra will do is "assemble" the major parts of the a/c except for things like tail-fins and the locally assembled radar (Grifo or Thales) we have a long way to go here. even the AL-Khalid is based on major foreign components "assembled" locally.

Well assembling is a start, from there we'll move on to producing spare-parts that will keep our aircraft flying and then ultimately begin manufacturing real time. From what I know, PAC will shift from assembling to actual manufacturing of JF-17 sometime for the last PAF batches...around 2015-2017. If you think about it, even the AW149 and NAH are simply imported designs, but it lays a critical foundation for us...remember this is how China started!

 

[fatman17]

Well assembling is a start, from there we'll move on to producing spare-parts that will keep our aircraft flying and then ultimately begin manufacturing real time. From what I know, PAC will shift from assembling to actual manufacturing of JF-17 sometime for the last PAF batches...around 2015-2017. If you think about it, even the AW149 and NAH are simply imported designs, but it lays a critical foundation for us...remember this is how China started!

MS, i really do hope so. with us its always the slip between lip and cup. every govt. has a different agenda, there is no continuity.

 

[unicorn]

Italian army reveals AW129 upgrade plan

Italy's army aviation command plans to upgrade its AgustaWestland AW129C attack helicopters to a new G19 configuration, having recently obtained approval from the nation's Parliament.
A key element of the project will be to install a new observation, targeting and weapon system comprising Rafael's Toplite sight unit and Spike ER air-to-surface missile. AgustaWestland will manage the upgrade, with Selex Galileo providing its mission-system interface unit and software.

Before the end of the year, a development-and-integration contract will be awarded for 32 systems, plus options for another 16. The deal is expected to be worth around €200 million ($275 million), and the work is due to be completed in 2014.

The upgrade will give the army's Mangustas enhanced target detection, identification and tracking performance by day or night, and an extended-range strike capability.

The army has an aviation battalion with 10 AW129Cs in Afghanistan, with the aircraft providing protection for Italian and coalition ground forces. They also support Italy's deployed transport helicopters, which include five Boeing CH-47Cs and six Agusta/Bell AB205s.
Meanwhile, the army will receive eight more NH Industries NH90 tactical transport helicopters between the end of this year and the middle of 2011 in the enhanced IOC+ standard. Featuring updated mission software and Oto Melara 7.62mm Gatling guns and capable of higher-altitude operations and rear ramp use, the aircraft follow will 12 already received in the IOC and IOC+ versions.

Next year, the army will also receive its first AAI RQ-7B Shadow unmanned air systems, under a $64 million deal signed earlier this year. A total of 16 Shadow air vehicles will be delivered by 2014.

 

[moxin]

excellent replacement of cobras...
T-129 ATAK can be great in the hands of our army...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Is there any credible link to the purchase of these much needed crafts
Thank you guys