Attack Helicopter Match-Ups: India vs. Pakistan

[Myth_buster_1]

may be its you who lost the senses..read my post again where did i said HAL exporting R&D indigenous systems for USAF F-18? i said F-18's using HAL made parts..and also as you said the countries in Europe like Britain and France are miles ahead of my country is R&D still they are using US components in their aircrafts like Eurofighter and Rafale. do some research before projecting yourself as highly intelligent personal.it will help you from further embarssment..I agre with my knowlegde in this subject is limited..but still you just jumping in to the guns before comprehending what i am trying to say...every countrys weapon system has some kind of foreign parts in it..but is that means its not indegenous..your argument is just flawed Growler

Again you lack a brain to comprehend anything and over glorify it to satisfy your ego. Pak was contracted back in 2004 to assemble some Boeing 737 777 parts, does that mean Boing is not a american jet? 99% of the electronics we use on daily bases are assembled in CHINA! Does that mean its Chinese "indigenous" products? NO. as for HAL making parts. I am not aware of it but i can tell you with my common sense HAL may have been contracted to produce few minor spare parts that would cost less for USN or any concern party to operate. HAL may have been contracted for limited amount of parts that are already delivered. Another thing. Like i said. their is practically no comparision of Western Indigenous R&D heck even Chinese with Super skhti bharat! All their products are 100% R&D by foreigner firms and sold to India where they assemble them with their own name. Same is the case with Pakistan.

mr.lier if it is eurocopter means why turkey and euquador choose dhruv over EC . dont derail this thread for sacrifice ur ego , come and post ur lies in dhruv thread in india defence section

What Mr. Deluded pathological lair? Try to improve your interpretation skills because you dont make any sense. Turkey Equador chose few Dhruvs for civilian use only which are "CHEAPER" and effective because its practically made in EUROPE! EC are expensive thats why they probably lost. At least try to use those 2 brain cells left in you. please kindly.

 

[Iggy]

Again you lack a brain to comprehend anything and over glorify it to satisfy your ego. Pak was contracted back in 2004 to assemble some Boeing 737 777 parts, does that mean Boing is not a american jet? 99% of the electronics we use on daily bases are assembled in CHINA! Does that mean its Chinese "indigenous" products? NO. as for HAL making parts. I am not aware of it but i can tell you with my common sense HAL may have been contracted to produce few minor spare parts that would cost less for USN or any concern party to operate. HAL may have been contracted for limited amount of parts that are already delivered. Another thing. Like i said. their is practically no comparision of Western Indigenous R&D heck even Chinese with Super skhti bharat! All their products are 100% R&D by foreigner firms and sold to India where they assemble them with their own name. Same is the case with Pakistan.

.

lolz mate ..You said Indian helicopter uses western parts so its not indegenous..Then I showed you how western countries also use differnt parts in their weapons and then you are saying I am comparing India with western nations??are you arguing in the sake of arguing ..did you tried to read what i am posting here.??Let me try it again.Western Nations uses different equipments from different nations other than their country in their weapons that doesnt make them less indegenous..Even China is using russian engine for aircrafts and french engine for their helicopters,also from one post of the Taimi ,he said french give some wital parts to Chines navy too..is that make their weapons also not indegenous??We are getting some parts from European countries..but the helicopter is fully built here and its indegenous..if by your argument no country has indegenous weapons..everybody is assembling different parts from different countries..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

lolz mate ..You said Indian helicopter uses western parts so its not indegenous..Then I showed you how western countries also use differnt parts in their weapons and then you are saying I am comparing India with western nations??are you arguing in the sake of arguing ..did you tried to read what i am posting here.??Let me try it again.Western Nations uses different equipments from different nations other than their country in their weapons that doesnt make them less indegenous..Even China is using russian engine for aircrafts and french engine for their helicopters,also from one post of the Taimi ,he said french give some wital parts to Chines navy too..is that make their weapons also not indegenous??We are getting some parts from European countries..but the helicopter is fully built here and its indegenous..if by your argument no country has indegenous weapons..everybody is assembling different parts from different countries..

You are the biggest deluded pathological lair of highest order! you cant comprehend anything which is just beyond your level.

let me put it short words.

Lets take Rafale for instance.

Designed by Dassualt "FRANCE"
avionics R&D in "France"
Engine "french"
Armaments "French"
their might be just few very few parts that may have been bought from European countries.

on the other hand lets take Indian Dhrv

Designed by MBB Germany now Eurocopter

Give me a list of Indian Indigenous input not some name changed product that was non-indian R&D and sold to india.

and here are all the western technology involved in this project

Foreign Involvement in the ALH

From the design to the provision of components and ammunition the involvement of foreign companies in the development of the ALH is considerable. At least 29 companies in nine countries across four continents have been involved with the development, licensed production or supply of components or munitions for the ALH. Ten of these companies are based in six EU Member States (Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Sweden and the UK). Other companies involved include a number based in Israel and the USA. Since its inception, the ALH has been a collaborative effort between the German company Messerschmitt-Bölkow Blohm (now Eurocopter Deutschland) and HAL:

"One thing should be clear. Though it is India's, if not Asia's, first de novo designed helicopter, it is not 'indigenous' in the Indian sense of the term, but a collaborative effort of HAL and specialists from Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm, who built the Eurocopter, which the Advanced Light Helicopter resembles."11

It is not clear what configuration of armaments and components will be incorporated into the variants of any ALHs that might eventually be exported to Myanmar, but it is incumbent on governments to ensure that components produced or otherwise originating from within their jurisdiction are not incorporated into military helicopters transferred to Myanmar. The section below provides illustrative examples of key foreign involvement in the development of the ALH.

Core foreign components for the ALH include helicopter engines and rotor blades, as well as hydraulics, cockpit displays, vibration dampers and other "mission-critical parts". In addition, European firms have contributed to the offensive military capability of the attack helicopter version: variants of the ALH have incorporated rocket launchers of Belgian origin, and machine guns and missiles of French origin.

European and US firms have been involved in designing and developing the aircraft and its components. As a consequence not least with major structural components like engines and rotors it would be difficult, if not impossible, for HAL to source adequate alternative components from non-European or non-US suppliers. Similarly it may be difficult for HAL to manufacture such components itself without technical support from those firms.

Letters were faxed to each of the companies mentioned in this report, noting the reports that the Government of India was in negotiations with the Government of Myanmar to supply the ALH, and requesting information about their involvement in the development of the ALH through the manufacture and supply of components, technology and/or assistance. The letters also asked about the terms of the licences under which such transfers were made, including any restrictions applied to re-export.

Many of the companies' responses summarised below specifically state that the contracts conform to their government's requirements. Nevertheless, should such transfers of the ALH from India go ahead over the coming months, it is likely that military equipment, components and technology supplied from EU and US manufacturers incorporated into the ALH will end up in an embargoed destination. There is no suggestion that these companies will have broken current laws or regulations or deliberately violated the EU arms embargo on Myanmar. However, in almost all of these cases, the exports would not have been permitted from the country where the controlling company is based if they were supplied direct to Myanmar.

The following section illustrates the scale of involvement of non-Indian companies in the design.

The European Union

Belgium

Forges de Zeebrugge FZ

Variants of the ALH have incorporated rocket launchers produced by the Belgiam company, Forges de Zeebrugge FZ.

For example, the photo below shows the FZ nameplate on the rocket launcher mounted on ALH on display at Farnborough International, UK on 14 August 2006.

[Photo Caption] © Robin Ballantyne

Forges de Zeebrugge FZ confirmed that they have contracts with both HAL and the Indian Army, which have been approved by the Belgian authorities and are subject to end-use agreements. Confidentiality clauses contained within the contract prevented fuller disclosure of any details surrounding the nature of the deal.12

France

Turbomeca

The French company Turbomeca (now part of the Safran Group) has undertaken both the direct export of engines from France to India but has also established licensed production and technology transfer arrangements with HAL to produce engines for the ALH. In February 2003, it was announced that Turbomeca and HAL had signed three major contracts. These included a contract for the supply of TM 333 2B2 engines for application on the HAL helicopter; and another contract for the repair and overhaul licence for the TM 333 2B2.13 The HAL website states that the ALH continues to use the "Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 Twin Turbo-shaft Engine 746 kw (1000 SHP)".14

Turbomeca confirmed that it has three contracts with HAL, two of which cover the supply, repair, servicing and overhaul of the TM333-2B2 engines for the ALH. The company also stated that all its contracts were regulated by the appropriate French export licensing authorities.15 However in its response to our enquiries the French Government stated that the engines in question are not classified as war material by the French regulations and do not appear in the list of items subject to the Myanmar embargo. In our view, this interpretation is wrong because non-listed items in the EC Dual Use Regulation if incorporated into military items bound for embargoed destinations become licensable, that is subject to the embargo (for more on this see the section on EU export controls on re-exports over military equipment below).16 It would therefore appear that the French Government places no restrictions on the transfer of equipment fundamental to the operation of the ALH notwithstanding the fact that it is clearly also used as a military aircraft.

GIAT Industries (Nexter) and MBDA

In July 2006 defence news service Shepherd Rotorhub quoted Hindustan

Aeronautics' chairman Ashok Baweja describing a weaponisation programme was under way for the ALH. This was to include a 20mm gun from the French company GIAT and rockets from European missile manufacturer MBDA.17 In December 2006, GIAT (now renamed Nexter) announced that it had been awarded a contract by HAL for:

"the supply of 20 THL 20 turrets that will equip the Indian Armed Forces' Advanced Light Helicopter. The order covers the development phase of 20 turrets. The first deliveries will take place in 2008...."18

In March 2007 Jane's Information Group reported that HAL signed a deal with MBDA in July 2006 for the supply of air-to-air Mistral missiles for armed versions of the ALH.19

Nexter has confirmed that it does supply products to HAL for the ALH. This currently includes twenty 'THL 20' 20mm Helicopter turrets. The company also stated that all of its exports are regulated and approved by the appropriate French export licensing authorities and that any additional contracts to supply the ALH that were not stipulated in the original contract would require a further export licence.20

Germany

Eurocopter Deutschland (formerly MBB) and now wholly owned by Eurocopter

Eurocopter has been involved (originally as MBB) with the development of the ALH since at least July 1984.21 In November 1995, it was reported that Eurocopter had submitted a proposal to the Indian Defence Ministry to "co-produce the ALH designed by HAL. It plans to set up production facilities in India to manufacture the ALH for both local and export markets."22 In 2006 both companies were advertising their mutual co-operation: Eurocopter noting that it was supplying rotor blades for the ALH,23 and HAL announcing that "Eurocopter, the helicopter manufacturer owned by EADS, has been cooperating with HAL for over four decades.... India was the first nation with which Eurocopter signed a licence agreement for technology transfer."24 Amnesty International wrote to Eurocopter in March 2007 asking for clarification over its role in the development of the ALH. As of 25 June 2007, the company had not responded.

SITEC Aerospace

SITEC Aerospace manufactures a range of components and complete assemblies for flight/engine controls for various types of aircraft.25 According to company literature on display at Farnborough International 2006, SITEC provides components for the ALH.

SITEC Aerospace confirmed that they supply parts for the ALH, but that they do not export these directly to HAL, but supply them to another unnamed German manufacturer who subsequently incorporates these items into other systems for the ALH.26

Italy

Elettronica Aster SpA

The Italian company Elettronica Aster SpA on its website describes HAL as a major customer. According to the "Company and Program Overview", Elettronica Aster SpA has produced and supplied the ALH with a brake system.27

Amnesty International wrote to Elettronica Aster SpA in March 2007 to ask for clarifications as to its involvement in the development of the ALH. In its reply dated 15 March, the company had no comment on the specifics of its supply of components for the ALH, stating only that Elettronica Aster SpA's "export activity is regulated by the rules called out in the Italian Law no.185/'90 (with amendment DDL 1927), establishing the regulation for weapons import/export/transit."28

Sweden

Saab AB

Saab Avitronics, the South African joint venture company owned by Saab AB (Sweden) and Saab Grintek (South Africa, itself part owned by Saab AB), has been awarded a multi-million dollar export contract from HAL for the supply of self-protection equipment for installation on the ALH for the Indian Armed Forces.29

Amnesty International wrote to Saab AB on 1 June 2007 asking for clarification over its involvement with the ALH. Saab AB replied saying: "All export approvals from the concerned authorities are in place. The export licences are supported by an end-user certificate."30

The United Kingdom

APPH Precision Hydraulics

At the 2004 Farnborough arms fair, the UK company APPH Precision Hydraulics Ltd displayed its Hydraulic Package as the following:

"HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Hydraulic Package designed and manufactured by APPH Ltd"

Amnesty International wrote to in March 2007 to ask for clarifications as its involvement in the development of the ALH. As of 25 June 2007, the company had not responded.

FPT Industries Ltd

In 1993 it was reported that FPT Industries Ltd had been awarded a contract to supply floatation equipment for the ALH under development by HAL.31 FTP Industries is part of GKN Aerospace Services Ltd. In 1997, it was reported that FPT Industries' self-sealing fuel tank systems were being used in the ALH.32 In 2007, the FPT Industries website stated that: "FPT equipment is fitted to a range of helicopters including ALH".33

In 1997, the then GKN Westland Aerospace Ltd (renamed GKN Aerospace Services Ltd in 2001) was awarded a contract to supply the internal gearbox BR715 for HAL's ALH.34

GKN Aerospace Services Ltd confirmed that they have supplied fuel tanks, floatation equipment and related gaskets and seals for the ALH, but that these are subject to end-use certificates stipulating that they would not be re-exported. The company stated that future supplies for the ALH would be for components and kits for fuel tanks that would be assembled locally in India, but would again be subject to similar end-use undertakings.35 However, while the UK Government normally requires the presentation of end-use documentation as part of the licensing process, it does not as a rule then include explicit end-use restrictions as a condition on the export licence . If this is the case in this instance, what force those end-use undertakings have is unclear.

Other third-country involvement in the ALH:

The United States

It should be noted that the US embargo on Myanmar does not specifically mention indirect supplies, nor does it place controls on civilian components that are incorporated into military systems. However, indirect supplies of US military components or other controlled items are subject to re-export controls under the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) system which specifically states that re-export of US-controlled content can only take place with the express permission of the US Government. Section 123.9 "Country of ultimate destination" provides that:

"(a) The country designated as the country of ultimate destination on an application for an export licence, or on a shipper's export declaration where an exemption is claimed under this subchapter, must be the country of ultimate end-use. The written approval of the Department of State must be obtained before reselling, diverting, transferring, transshipping, or disposing of a defense article in any country other than the country of ultimate destination as stated on the export licence, or on the shipper's export declaration in cases where an exemption is claimed under this subchapter. Exporters must ascertain the specific end-use and end-user prior to submitting an application to the Office of Munitions Control or claiming an exemption under this subchapter. End-use must be confirmed and should not be assumed."36

However, it is not clear whether components supplied by US companies for the ALH have been specifically designed or adapted for military use. If not, they may fall outside this specification.

Aitech Systems Ltd

In September 2005, it was reported that Aitech Systems Ltd, a US company, had announced it had "received the first production order from the Lahav Division of Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) for Display & Mission Computers" for inclusion in the glass cockpit of the ALH. The Lahav Division of IAI is under contract to HAL to develop and provide the avionics system for the HAL.37

Deliveries for the first production of Display and Mission Computers were due to be completed by May 2006:

"Aitech will build 400 Display & Mission Computers for the ALH program, to be delivered over the next several years. In addition, Aitech is under contract to IAI to provide the next generation of Display & Mission Computer." 38

Amnesty International wrote to the company in March 2007 asking for clarifications over its involvement with the ALH, but has yet to receive a reply (as of 25 June 2007).

Lord Corporation

In January 2004, it was reported that Lord Corporation had announced that it had been "awarded the first production contract for its active vibration control system" for the ALH. Lord Corporation had been supplying other parts (such as elastomeric bearings) for the main tail rotor and parts for various "isolators", which together formed part of an anti-resonance isolator system aimed at reducing vibrations in the aircraft." The report also stated that "Lord would supply the vibration dampers for these aircraft with user approvals."39

The Lord Corporation wrote to Amnesty International on 9 March 2007 saying that contractual obligations of confidentiality prevented any disclosure of the Lord Corporation's involvement in military products, other than information currently in the public domain. The company also stipulated that it was fully aware of government compliance issues and "strives to be in full compliance with all applicable regulations."40

 

[Myth_buster_1]

.Even China is using russian engine for aircrafts and french engine for their helicopters,also from one post of the Taimi ,he said french give some wital parts to Chines navy too..is that make their weapons also not indegenous??.

THe fact is China atleast modifies the platform by them self and a new design is formed without anyone's input. such as
A russian Mig-21 copied with the name of F-7 and over the years few changes were done and now they have a variant with two air inlets, a longer nose, cranked delta wings and few changes to the air frame.

 

[bumbgola]

a new design is formed without anyone's input.. over the years few changes were done and now they have a variant with two air inlets, a longer nose, cranked delta wings and few changes to the air frame

Are you saying they have introduced 2 air inlet design, long nose etc etc to the world? Or would you agree that they have been "inspired" by designs already prevailing in the world? BTW how can a new design come about without any1's input?

 

[Iggy]

You are the biggest deluded pathological lair of highest order! you cant comprehend anything which is just beyond your level. {

}
The Lord Corporation wrote to Amnesty International on 9 March 2007 saying that contractual obligations of confidentiality prevented any disclosure of the Lord Corporation's involvement in military products, other than information currently in the public domain. The company also stipulated that it was fully aware of government compliance issues and "strives to be in full compliance with all applicable regulations."40

Again ignoring your personal insults..I am not saying that Dhruv is not having any foreign components..i am showing you that every countrys weapons has some kind of foriegn parts..I dont know what you are reading from my post because you are getting exactly opposite of what i am saying here..Let me ask you if any country can make helicopters by assembling foreign parts only??then why most of the countries dont have their own helicopters including your own..its easy na just order some parts and assemble it together..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Again ignoring your personal insults..I am not saying that Dhruv is not having any foreign components..i am showing you that every countrys weapons has some kind of foriegn parts..I dont know what you are reading from my post because you are getting exactly opposite of what i am saying here..Let me ask you if any country can make helicopters by assembling foreign parts only??then why most of the countries dont have their own helicopters including your own..its easy na just order some parts and assemble it together..

again either my posts are too much hurting you or you are just too deluded.

Listen. Dhruv does not just have "SOME" foreigner parts but infact the entire chopper is based on western systems R&D and designs sold to india. this is also the case with rest of the weapons claimed to be indian. And i am not saying pakistan is building tanks ships or aircrafts with their own R&D.
give me a list of Indian indigenous R&D input that is not some foreigner system with indian name assembled in india.
If Pakistan had the economy like india then they would be asking western companies firms etc to develop a platform of their requirements such as ships tanks aircraft heli etc.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Are you saying they have introduced 2 air inlet design, long nose etc etc to the world? Or would you agree that they have been "inspired" by designs already prevailing in the world? BTW how can a new design come about without any1's input?

Can you comprehend anything?

I am just taking F-7 and JL-9 for example of how China has modified the platform with their indigenous systems on their own. They may not have introduced such modification to the world but my point is they have done it on their own. No kits were provided to them for these modification by foreigner countries.

 

[Iggy]

again either my posts are too much hurting you or you are just too deluded.

Listen. Dhruv does not just have "SOME" foreigner parts but infact the entire chopper is based on western systems R&D and designs sold to india. this is also the case with rest of the weapons claimed to be indian. And i am not saying pakistan is building tanks ships or aircrafts with their own R&D.
give me a list of Indian indigenous R&D input that is not some foreigner system with indian name assembled in india.
If Pakistan had the economy like india then they would be asking western companies firms etc to develop a platform of their requirements such as ships tanks aircraft heli etc.

No your posts are not hurting me..in the end i am here to learn too..about the Indian R&D..my knowledge to this area is limited but i will share some of it..as you know the composite material used in building LCA is also used in PAK-FA aircraft too..and also the sonar USHUS is also devaloped by Indian defence establishments..its the one uses in our Arihant nuclear submarine..I will PM some Indian members here who has more knowledge in this field ..i am sure that they will give you answer..and also i was not pointing not only Pakistan there are many countries who has the money ..why cant they just assemble a helicopter ??

 

[Myth_buster_1]

No your posts are not hurting me..in the end i am here to learn too..about the Indian R&D..my knowledge to this area is limited but i will share some of it..as you know the composite material used in building LCA is also used in PAK-FA aircraft too..and also the sonar USHUS is also devaloped by Indian defence establishments..its the one uses in our Arihant nuclear submarine..I will PM some Indian members here who has more knowledge in this field ..i am sure that they will give you answer..and also i was not pointing not only Pakistan there are many countries who has the money ..why cant they just assemble a helicopter ??

Like i said earlier.

Western R&D in indian hands with a different name and some test labs to give the world a illusion that these products are "indigenously" made in india, got it? If IAF PAK-FA is going to use LCA composites then its ram ram for PAK-FA lol. no offense but same is the case with LCA what i have proved about Dhruv.
Its just going to be point less if you bring more indians and i would have to start the subject from square 1 again.

 

[Iggy]

Like i said earlier.

Western R&D in indian hands with a different name and some test labs to give the world a illusion that these products are "indigenously" made in india, got it? If IAF PAK-FA is going to use LCA composites then its ram ram for PAK-FA lol. no offense but same is the case with LCA what i have proved about Dhruv.
Its just going to be point less if you bring more indians and i would have to start the subject from square 1 again.

composite materials used in Tejas is advanced and thats why sukhoi selected it..i dont think they are that stupid to select a composite material in the name partnership...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

composite materials used in Tejas is advanced and thats why sukhoi selected it..i dont think they are that stupid to select a composite material in the name partnership...

i need a source for this lol.

SO which aircraft is going to be more stealtheir? PAK-FA with Indian "indigenous" composite materials or LCA with the same composite materials? seriously stop making a mockery out of yourself.

 

[Iggy]

i need a source for this lol.

SO which aircraft is going to be more stealtheir? PAK-FA with Indian "indigenous" composite materials or LCA with the same composite materials? seriously stop making a mockery out of yourself.

if you belive in wiki

Sukhoi/HAL FGFA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indian participation in FGFA to be formalized

India to develop 25 pc of fifth generation fighter: Rediff.com Business

Some extract :

But the newcomer wants its due. Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 percent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL's work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing systems; and modifying Sukhoi's single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force wants.

India will also contribute its expertise in aircraft composites, developed while designing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.


hope you will get some satisfaction now..before thinking yourself as an oversmart..i suggest to do some research otherwise its you who will make a mockery of yourself here..

BTW i didnt see links of your lenghty posts about the components of DHRUV,,

 

[desiman]

Like i said earlier.

Western R&D in indian hands with a different name and some test labs to give the world a illusion that these products are "indigenously" made in india, got it? If IAF PAK-FA is going to use LCA composites then its ram ram for PAK-FA lol. no offense but same is the case with LCA what i have proved about Dhruv.
Its just going to be point less if you bring more indians and i would have to start the subject from square 1 again.

Ok Growler lets talk, knowledge is good but bits and pieces knowledge is worse than having no knowledge. You have almost no knowledge of how procurement, production or R & D is done so please do not comment on it but let me enlighten you on how the whole system works.

1. The need for domestically developed platform’s was originally felt during the early 1990’s when India was going through a touch economic period. Acquiring foreign made technologies is expensive and at that moment it seemed a bit tough to do that. The armed forces were asked in terms of what they need to maintain a credible deterrence and as well as keep cost down. In reply the Army asked for a new MBT and a attack helicopter, the navy asked for better ships, submarines and a naval attack helicopter and the Air force came back with a request of good multi role aircraft, a possible stealth aircraft as well an attack helicopter. Now keep in mind these are just the major request and do not include the minor or secondary request that were also made. Conventional development such as missiles are not part of this.

2. The MOD came into action and issued a Request for information to the DRDO and HAL, inquiring whether all this can be done. In reply the MOD was told that it can be done but the time scale will be longer as such technologies take a long time to research specially when financial constraints exist. DRDO and HAL then set up separate teams for each of these projects then headed by the respective directors of the organizations.

3. The project were taken quite lightly until the Pokran test when the government pushed the MOD again in the light of the sanctions that were put on India. The results of that push can be seen today with the LCA, LCH, Project 15A, 17, Arjun, Naval LCA, PAKFA coming into light. The full BOM’S and drawings for all these projects were completed in the late 1990’s but took a long time for them to come down to the production levels.
Now lets talk about how production is done in the defense industry as its obvious you have no idea how it works. Let take the LCA for example –


1. Initially the major BOM is issued for the full product and it is put under a job number such as J-100. Keep in mind that job number is only for 1 jet not all the LCA’s. Then that one job number is split into further jobs by which type of production it is. Production is not like lego growler where you just have to put everything together. For example J-100-1 could just be the sheet metal involved in the inner frames of the LCA while J-100-2 could be the assembly for turning mechanism. Normally one jet is spilt into almost 20 jobs before it call comes together at the assembly plants.

2. You argument that some parts of the LCA or Indian products are not Indian is stupid and immature. When these jobs are split further, individual BOM’s are issued to the Procurement Department which are organized as per the type of procurement they specialize in. In general engineers only issue a requirement based upon the drawings and the function needed. For example there is safety switch that goes on the cockpit of the LCA so that if by any chance it opens, the pilot would be alerted right away and appropriate counter measure can be taken. This switch is normally supplied by Honeywell but purchasers can buy the same thing form vendors such as Panasonic, Baumer or Tecspan. Indian purchasers are known to buy external parts because they come with a solid customer service and are high in quality as well. The BOM’s as well as the drawing are Indian, parts purchasing is done from all over the world.

3. Parts for thee F-22 are bought from everywhere, from Germany to Japan, now does that make the F-22 Japanese ? Think before you talk the next time.

What is really funny is that the JF-17’s BOM’s and drawings are all Chinese, so how its it become a Pakistani product is anyone guess. The LCA composites your making fun off are manufactured with the best quality control in the world. From what I have heard, everybody at the MOD is highly impressed with its quality and the price that is comes with. Your India bashing attitude is clearly seen here as you fail to even research anything even one bit before you come up with big accusations. The LCA,LCH, MCA etc etc are all totally “Made In India” whether you like it or not. Case closed.

 

[bumbgola]

example of how China has modified the platform with their indigenous systems

No, I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that Chinese will forgo a better western product/part and hope to win a war with second grade technology?