Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

[Armstrong]

Hmm... no..Direct Action Day ? He wasnt the greatest ambassador for any unity.

That was indeed a miscalculation on part of Mr.Jinnah where he thought that mob hysteria would not overtake common sense and his command to the Muslims. Having said that it wasn't a deliberate plan by the League to cause bloodshed for they - the League - knew that they couldn't stand their own in any numerical confrontation especially in Bengal and it would have been a political suicide for Suharwardy's government which relied on the support of Hindus and Muslims alike to stay in power. Even Maulana Azad refers to 'how a constitutional politician like Jinnah resorted to mass politics and concluded that Jinnah was driven along a course that he was reluctant to and, at any rate, understood little of.'.

The customary Indian accusation that the Muslim League planned and executed the massacre of innocents in Calcutta does not stand the test of facts. Lord Wavell wrote on August 21 that “the estimate of casualties is 3,000 dead and 17,000 injured. The Bengal Congress is convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League ministry but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on August 16 was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very farfetched. There was a public holiday in Sindh and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as the Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus” (page 274, Volume VIII, Transfer of Power Papers).

This was confirmed by Sardar Patel’s letter, where he gloated about more, many times more, Muslim casualties than Hindus. This letter is quoted by renowned Indian historian Sumit Sarkar on page 432 of his book Modern India: 1885-1947. One of the big gaping holes in the Indian nationalist version of history is that while all accounts seem to indicate that Muslims were armed with sticks, according to Sir Francis Tuker, “buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms” (‘While Memory Serves’, quoted on this website: Sir Francis Tuker: "The Great Calcutta Killing" in While Memory Serves). Who then was arming the Hindus and Sikhs?

Had Lord Wavell and by extension the British had been in bed with the league they wouldn't have dismissed the ML government in Bengal and installed a Congress only ministry at such a critical juncture.

As for the 'Hindu Muslim Unity' bit ! He was given that title by Gokhale himself, his work alongside Tilak, Annie Bessant and others in the Home Rule League speak for themselves and his ardent desire to bring the League and the Congress together culminated into the Lucknow Pact of 1916 which was later used as a toilet paper by the Congress. Even as late as '46 he was ready to concede a United India when he accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan only for the Congress to accept it at first and then reject it !

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Jinnah sahib's political career was indeed started by a Parsi for Naroji was indeed a Parsi and an exceptional man to say the least; it is my firm belief that had he lived on instead of Mr.Gandhi and Mr.Nehru coming into the picture...things may have turned out so much better

Dont be a kabab mai hadhi for such cute couple.
Its also my firm belief that if I have all the money in this world I will be the richest man in the world.

 

[INDIC]

Hmm... no..Direct Action Day ? He wasnt the greatest ambassador for any unity.

5000 people were killed in Calcutta in first three days of "Direct Action Day", spreading violence further to Bihar and Noakhali.

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

AT THE FRONT OF BATTLEFIELDS AS WELL AS WITH A SUIT .

 

[Myth_buster_1]

As for the 'Hindu Muslim Unity' bit ! He was given that title by Gokhale himself, his work alongside Tilak, Annie Bessant and others in the Home Rule League speak for themselves and his ardent desire to bring the League and the Congress together culminated into the Lucknow Pact of 1916 which was later used as a toilet paper by the Congress. Even as late as '46 he was ready to concede a United India when he accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan only for the Congress to accept it at first and then reject it !

Did you know that Annie Beasant was a freemason who was into occult practices and Jinnah's life was so influenced by her that he called her amma "mother".

 

[Bhairava]

The wordings given for the Direct Action Day was anything but non-provocative. Calls to jehad reminding of Battle of Badr and referring it to the first battle between Islam and Heathenism fed the passion of the mob which went on a rampage in short notice.

Ofcourse the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce, but so in self-defense.In the face of provocation. Calcutta in those days was highly polarized into two antagonistic groups and to say that a wily politician like Jinnah did not expect it to degenerate into something that it did and expected it to remain peaceful is unbelievable to say the least.

BTW the ******* were not armed with 'only sticks'. From the time magazine , Aug 26 1946

Rioting ******* went after Hindus with guns, knives and clubs, looted shops, stoned newspaper offices, set fire to Calcutta's British business district.

Read more: INDIA: Direct Action - TIME

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I'd respectfully disagree with you on that point ! I think one finds ample evidence in the Quaid's speeches and in the works and words of Iqbal that Pakistan was supposed to have a profound and pronounced Islamic character to it.

You are a funny guy. Quickly READ the first post on the page.
Mere speeches does not mean jack! Whats more important is the practical work like implementing "Islamic character" in government institutions and if thats not possible then at least signing a commitment that such and such "Islamic Character" shall be implemented ASAP. Like I said, go back to the page and read Iqbal's statements regarding his support of Secularism which either contradicts your argument or both.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You live in the United States, hence a secular Republic with a small Muslim minority, correct? Was it the "wrath of Allah" that compelled you to MIGRATE there? Was it the "wrath of Allah" that compells you to REMAIN there? Is it the "wrath of Allah" that induces you to use an INNOVATION that was made in Secular nations, but only to criticise those who remained behind but yearn to live more like you today?

Behold the Munafiqeen!

As long as you are not living unIslamic lifestyle I believe it is justified to live in nonmuslim land because Prophet mohammed PBUH has given Muslims permission to study in nonmuslim land. Your women are not safe in your own land, they are being raped, kidnapped, executed and receive hardly any justice. If these main issues are resolved, Islamic principle are restored then accuse anybody for betraying their land because these so called "Islamic" republic nations are anything but Islam.

 

[Farooq]

You live in the United States, hence a secular Republic with a small Muslim minority, correct? Was it the "wrath of Allah" that compelled you to MIGRATE there? Was it the "wrath of Allah" that compells you to REMAIN there? Is it the "wrath of Allah" that induces you to use an INNOVATION that was made in Secular nations, but only to criticise those who remained behind but yearn to live more like you today?

Behold the Munafiqeen!

The irony is that you come from a turd world country invaded by Russia then US and recently honored by becoming a lapdog of bharti hindus.

And sorry to burst your bubble, but I was born in US

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

I am a bit busy so I can't post my personal views at the moment, but I think people should watch this documentary about Ataturk. It will help viewers learn about the era he lived in & how his actions saved & benefited the Turkish nation.

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 1) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 2) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 3) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 4) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 5) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 6) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 7) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 8) - YouTube

Ataturk - Republic of Turkiye (Part 9) - YouTube​

 

[niaz]

Quote

Just to let you know, Muslim League was formed by Aga Khan who himself was a freemason and a member of Grand lodge of AF & AM of India.

Unquote.

A usual misrepresenation of facts by anti Pakistani bigots.

All India Muslim League developed as an off shoot of All India Mohammedan Educational Conference. It originated in Dacca in 1906. Founding members were Nawab Mohsinul Mulk , Nawab Waqar ul Mulk, Sir Mian Mohammed Shafi, Justice Ameer Ali and Hakim Ajmal Khan and Maulana Mohammed Ali Jauhar who also wrote Muslim League constitution.

Actual event was that a convention of all noteworthy Muslims of India was hosted by Nawab of Dacca, Sir Khawaja Salimullah at his own expense in December 1906. The convention was evetually named All India Muslim League in that meeting. Agha Khan was elected as first Honorary President and Nawab Salimullah as Vice President.

The fact that Agha Khan may or may not have been a Freemason has no relevance here. None of the other members had any thing to do with Free Masonry movement. It is illogical to malign entire league because of alleged association of one of the members. This clearly indicates that anti Pakistani forces will try to dig up any dirt they can to malign Pakistan movement. This comment gives the impression that because one of the founding members was a Free Mason, all members of Muslim League were agent of the Jews! Pakistan need sons like you like she needs a hole in the head.

It has been a normal for the JI and the Deonbandi Ulemas to malign Mulsim league and her leaders.
No doubt without Allah’s will nothing ever happens and it was Allah’s blessing that Pakistan came into being. However the instrument used by Allah was Quaid -e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah who overcame numerous obstacles put is his path by Jamaat Islami (Maulana Maudoodi) and Mualana Madani of Deoband in UP, Majlis Ahraar & Unionist Khizr Hayat Tiwana in Punjab and Bacha Khan’s Redshirts in KP (then NWFP).

Pray tell me if Muslim League and the Quaid were not founders of Pakistan, were Maudoodi or Hussain Ahmad Madani running around canvassing for Pakistan in general elections of 1945- 1946?

All those who claim to be Pakistanis but malign the Quaid and the founding fathers harbour no love for Pakistan and are in fact 5th Column of anti-Pakistan forces who hide behind religion with the aim to destroy Pakistan from within.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

A usual misrepresenation of facts by anti Pakistani bigots.

A typical comeback by anti Islamic liberal fascists.

All India Muslim League developed as an off shoot of All India Mohammedan Educational Conference. It originated in Dacca in 1906. Founding members were Nawab Mohsinul Mulk , Nawab Waqar ul Mulk, Sir Mian Mohammed Shafi, Justice Ameer Ali and Hakim Ajmal Khan and Maulana Mohammed Ali Jauhar who also wrote Muslim League constitution.

bravo sir for 2 sec entertainment.
All India Muslim league was indeed the origin of Muslim League however it was "syed ahmed khan" who founded the IMEC and Muslim League. To our amusement, he was too a part of Grand Lodge of AF & AM India The list that you provided above are mere delegates among 1,950.
Just kindly do a proper research and get your facts straight before telling others.

The fact that Agha Khan may or may not have been a Freemason has no relevance here. None of the other members had any thing to do with Free Masonry movement. It is illogical to malign entire league because of alleged association of one of the members. This clearly indicates that anti Pakistani forces will try to dig up any dirt they can to malign Pakistan movement. This comment gives the impression that because one of the founding members was a Free Mason, all members of Muslim League were agent of the Jews! Pakistan need sons like you like she needs a hole in the head.

Now you can add Syed Ahmed Khan to the list of freemasons in Muslim league. And just to let you know, Jinnah included many freemasons in his friends lists who were not just his friends but his leaders as well (I can list them at your request). NON of Pakistani founding fathers address any concern against freemasonry if they were ever against imperialist system.

No doubt without Allah’s will nothing ever happens and it was Allah’s blessing that Pakistan came into being. However the instrument used by Allah was Quaid -e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah who overcame numerous obstacles put is his path by Jamaat Islami

Quite a blasphemous remark of associating jinnah with Allah's instruments. All of Pakistan's constitutions were created keeping British system in mind and not "ALLAH'S".

And seriously, i do not want to hear mullah stories anymore.

 

[niaz]

A typical comeback by anti Islamic liberal fascists.

bravo sir for 2 sec entertainment.
All India Muslim league was indeed the origin of Muslim League however it was "syed ahmed khan" who founded the IMEC and Muslim League. To our amusement, he was too a part of Grand Lodge of AF & AM India The list that you provided above are mere delegates among 1,950.
Just kindly do a proper research and get your facts straight before telling others.

Now you can add Syed Ahmed Khan to the list of freemasons in Muslim league. And just to let you know, Jinnah included many freemasons in his friends lists who were not just his friends but his leaders as well (I can list them at your request). NON of Pakistani founding fathers address any concern against freemasonry if they were ever against imperialist system.

Quite a blasphemous remark of associating jinnah with Allah's instruments. All of Pakistan's constitutions were created keeping British system in mind and not "ALLAH'S".

And seriously, i do not want to hear mullah stories anymore.

What I understand from your posts; which possibly mirror your feelings about Pakistan and Muslim League is:

- All India Mohammedan Educational Conference was founded by Sir Syed Ahmad Khan who was a Freemason.
- Muslim founding member and first President Agha Khan was also a Freemason.
- Quaid e Azam had many close friends who Freemasons. Quaid was in love with Zoroastrians and his wife Rattie Jinnah practiced black magic.

In fact you are insinuating that Aligarh; the institution that did great service to Muslims of India; the Muslim League, Quaid as well as Pakistan are all product of Freemasons; indirectly implying all was part of a Jewish/Western conspiracy!!!

Free masonry is a secret society and no member is going to tell on the other member; therefore there is no way of confirming whether any one is really a member of the Lodge or not. I am not prepared to accept your word that Sir Syed and Agha Khan were Freemasons. It could well be part of your scheme to malign Muslim League.

This kind of thing is quite common among bigots of Pakistan. A personal friend who was General Manager of Attock Oil Refinery during Zia’ time, became victim of a whispering campaign that he was a Qadiani. I have known that guy from childhood, his father was from Sunni Kashmiri family settled in Delhi and his mother was a Pashtun. But once a slander like that starts, there is no stopping; he eventually resigned.

I would like to comment that it is hard to believe that you are indeed a Pakistani as you have always referred to the Quaid as ‘Jinnah’. Anyone who is brought up in Pakistan would call him the Quaid or Jinnah Sahib or Mohammed Ali Jinnah. For all I know you, could be Zionist in disguise out to spread baseless rumours about Pakistan and her founding fathers.

Additionally, if you are indeed “Aulad –e – na khalaf” of Pakistan, and really believe what you have posted, you should not call yourself a Pakistani. A pure Muslim such as your good self should have nothing to do with a country that is product of Freemasons and Zoroastrian lovers with black magic thrown in.

If other Pakistanis members are content to quietly accept an ungrateful bigot rubbishing the founding fathers of Pakistan, it is their business, I would not waste any more time on ranting of an enemy of Pakistan.

 

[Majnun]

What purpose could the Caliphate serve in Turkey or anywhere else? The Ottoman Empire had always been ruled by a sultan, and only when his grip started weakening did he give himself the title of Caliph, to gain some religious legitimacy. In fact, during the early days of the Ottomans, Islam was greatly strengthened, when there was no such thing as a Caliph in the empire, only the Sultan.
Anyways, no title is justification for treason, which the Caliph was guilty of in signing the Treaty of Sevres. Ataturk was the one fighting a true jihad from 1919-1922, and it was only Ataturk in the Muslim world who stood up against Western and Western-backed powers and defended Muslims, including Greek and Bulgarian Muslims who fled to Turkey during this period. It should also be noted that Quaid-e-Azam and the Muslim League expressed their support for the Ankara government of Ataturk during this period.
Lastly, I would like to add my view on Islamic rule. In my view, the Caliph is just a title, as meaningless as Shahenshah or any such title. In the early days of Islam, idealized as a golden age, the most trusted members of the community, would decide on a ruler. This seems to me like an early form of parliamentary democracy, and so, rather than a fake Caliphate, I think that parliamentary democracy in the British mould is the model most in tune with the Islamic ideals, as well as being the best in wholly secular terms.
In conclusion, I quote Quaid-e-Azam on the occasion of Ataturk's death, "He was the greatest Mussalman in the modern Islamic world and I am sure the entire Mussalman world will deeply mourn his passing away. It is impossible to express adequately in a press interview one's appreciation of his remarkable and varied services as the builder and maker of Modern Turkey and an example to the rest of the world, especially to the Mussalman states in the Middle East. The remarkable way in which he rescued and built up his people against all odds has no parallel in the history of the world. He must have derived the greatest sense of satisfaction that he fully accomplished his mission during his lifetime and left his people and his country consolidated, united and a powerful nation. In him, not only the Mussalmans, but the whole world has lost one of the greatest men that ever lived."

 

[Hyperion]

These liberal parasites have destroyed Pakistan

You tool of the Allmighty - What are you up-to in the land of infidels? Why not migrate to THE GREAT motherland of floating dish-dashas in the middle of nowhere East?

Oh wait. You can't. They won't accept your pathetic kind there, either - would they?

Best option for you would be to have a fake encounter with a true Pakistani soldier and take one bullet for your team. Wouldn't that be the best? We will be MINUS ONE ******, and you MIGHT be granted the 170 donkeys in heaven-land!