Assalamu alaikum. New member here from Khanabadosh community

[Joe Shearer]

Man, I think nobody knows your community so well amongst the entire human population currently!

You should not let it go wasted, talk to some publishers (if not Oxford Press), throw your concept at them, I think they would be interested.

It could be a very interesting book and the first of it's kind.

It would be an interesting book, but not because these facts are unknown. The Roma have been studied until the researchers turned blue in the face. Even the Domari have been studied extensively. However, the extent of knowledge specific to Pakistan and to Afghanistan in this man's posts is unexpected and very large (obviously, we are getting a part of the story, not the whole, due to shortage of space and time).

 

[jamahir]

It would be an interesting book, but not because these facts are unknown. The Roma have been studied until the researchers turned blue in the face. Even the Domari have been studied extensively. However, the extent of knowledge specific to Pakistan and to Afghanistan in this man's posts is unexpected and very large (obviously, we are getting a part of the story, not the whole, due to shortage of space and time).

I just got to know from your post about the Domari language from Wikipedia. Does that mean that the Doms and the Romas are the same people from the Subcontinent who went to West Asia, Central Asia, Africa and Europe ?

 

[Maula Jatt]

Thanks. I did spend some time checking for any mistakes but as you know typos are unavoidable!

Inshallah, I will regain this faith for which my forefathers haw left everything behind (before Partition we also had zamindar relatives who recived land as gifts becuase they were Malang/Fakir/Qalandar affiliated to the Sayyed) Historically we are quite submerged into Sunni tradition of Sufism and have our own maulvis and alims or sometimes our people serve as maulvis in villages where there is conflict between groups because we are unbiased towards them.

We have many myths about our origin and one of them was that our ancestor was a Sufi who taught a Jin how to reach the Quran and then the Jin rewarded him and his 7 generations of being protected and my generation is apparently the last one. The Jin did not make us rich but it did give us something very special, ruhani taaqat that I used to believe. Now I am skeptical.

I am very interested in reading and understanding the full Quran. In childhood I did ‘khatam’ but unfortunately due to non-practice I cannot remember most of what I learnt. I have been reading the Old Testament recently, out of curiousity, so I think I will continue to read the holy books in chronological order.

I assure you that no fake Baba can entice me, I am my own Pir and if I want, I could also start some pseudo-Islamic cult and attracted a large number of followers and then exploit them but that is not right

I agree that Islam itself is arguably the best religion (if followed correctly) and that many of our cultural practices are harmful. Recent extremist Saudi-Wahhabi influences, however, will also harm us and have deeply impacted many communities already such as the Pakhtuns. Sadly Muslims everywhere are nowadays in a bad state. The world as a whole seems to be against Muslims, while Muslims themselves are pitted against each other. I do not like acknowledging just how much Islamophobia I encounter here every day from all sorts of people

Indeed you are right! I read many African Americans originally converted to Ahmadi (and the actively prostelyze in the UK) but once they found out that they can never become Imams (they have to be of the Punjabi bloodline) so they immediately left that religion and embraced egalitarian Islam. But later some invented their own racist ‘Islamic’ groups



Thank you and salaam to you also! I am in the process of compiling more information and also about the languages spoken by these people as I am generally interested in languages. However, collecting information is not easy, especially since I am abroad but also because of effects of displacement and war on the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan

You are right, many of the problems we face are indeed because of our lifestyle. Being nomadic for some communities is a choice whereas have no choice. If we settled somewhere, we have to have a source of ‘roti’ there otherwise we will not survive. This is why my parents and brother are not with me and I am away from them. Whatever we get wherever we get it from, we have to take it as it is.

Though not permanently settled, my own family background is quite similar to the family you have described. The Sheikh are indeed hard-working people intent on climbing up the ladder, there are some in Afghanistan as well and they are well established in trading but sometimes locals discriminate against them, but not as much as the gypsy communities.

Your story about that family has made me feel good. I hope to hear many more like it, inshallah!

We have a saying, “Allah is kind but the mohallah is not.”



Yes it is complicated and confusing. Even we don’t know where we actually belong. Immigrating abroad is not really a solution because we will face the same attitudes wherever we may go.

I hope the Pakistani govt can help all vulnerable sections in Pakistan. Getting ID cards will open access to education, buying property and getting decent jobs. We don’t really have free healthcare like Europe but there are schemes in place in Pakistan, however most don’t know about them. The govt really must help the underclasses. Even in India, the Dalits are protected by law



My father, his brother and two sisters were born in Pakistan and they are Pakistani citizens. His parents were not however and neither are his children but because of cultural/religious law, children take on the ethnicity of their father, so I am a Pakistani.

I have not visited ‘Naya Pakistan’ so I am not aware of the ‘tabdeeli’ that has taken place. Back in our time, bribery was the only way to get anything done. I have paid at least 5,000 to secure driving license



Thanks brother.

Its not actually a question of wanting the citizenship, but rather of needing it. Since I am now British, I am ok. But my own people in Pakistani are still stateless, landless and penniless. They are not nationals of any country at present so whoever offers them citizenship, they will go there. I’m sure many people in Pakistan would rather have European nationality than Pakistani, am I right?

Wow didn't know that Ahmedi imam has to be a Punjabi by blood - first time I am hearing of this
I know thier imams wear Punjabi pug unlike a lot of modern day imams, because pug is supposed to be like the dressing of a well to do man/leadership, sign of pride (arrogance in some ways)

While imam is not supposed to be a well to do, big man
More of a godly person

OT- I think problem is gypsy lifestyle itself
You just can't settle down and accumulate wealth
Poverty leads to bad cultural practices, leading to discrimination

Same is the case in Europe with gypsies- gypsies are very much disliked in Europe with a passion (gypsy are migrants of northwestern south Asia so our people who migrated into Europe during middle ages)

 

[Joe Shearer]

I just got to know from your post about the Domari language from Wikipedia. Does that mean that the Doms and the Romas are the same people from the Subcontinent who went to West Asia, Central Asia, Africa and Europe ?

Yup.

Am going out to the dentist, can reply your questions in detail on return.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

I just got to know from your post about the Domari language from Wikipedia. Does that mean that the Doms and the Romas are the same people from the Subcontinent who went to West Asia, Central Asia, Africa and Europe ?

Dom and Chamar in Bihar are seen as the worst castes dealing in waste and garbage. I was born in Bihar, grew up overseas, visited every two years for few weeks at a time until adulthood, yet caste bigotry rubbed off on me because it was so prevalent and casual that people didn't think twice over what they were saying.

 

[jamahir]

Dom and Chamar in Bihar are seen as the worst caste dealing in waste and garbage. I was born in Bihar, grew up overseas, visited every two years for few weeks at a time growing up until adulthood, yet caste bigotry rubbed off on me because it was so prevalent and casual that people didn't think twice over what they were saying.

Watch in this talk at 22:07 mins what Indian Dalit leader Jignesh Mevani says about what India's Dear Leader Modi said in a stupid book in 2009. Jignesh also mentions Chamars.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Dear Mr. Pardesi,
this whole thread is the most elaborate and beatiful contribution to your widespread nation, that I have come over in the years being occupied with several peoples and tribes. You may get in touch with Germany's "Society for Threatened Peoples": https://www.gfbv.de/en/ since they are keen on updating their resources and also can help here or there to preserve a national culture such as yours and the whole Gipsy people.
Good Luck and may you receive the warmth that your article spreads.
Best
Bernd

Nobody from the subcontinent, including gypsies, should require visa in lands in which native blood ancestry is tens of thousands of years old, and others are thousands of years. Its people should have automatic, eternal right on the land. I think Chinese and Iranians follow this example, and Germans and several others may as well. On the other hand, self-hate in South Asia is huge which comes from an obsession to create 'nationalist' states by religion or language. The sooner the demon of nationalism is buried, the better for everyone. Not possible to be nationalist while discriminating and persecuting the people of South Asia over race, religion, language, caste, or tribe.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nobody from the subcontinent, including gypsies, should require visa in lands in which native blood ancestry is tens of thousands of years old, and others are thousands of years. Its people should have automatic, eternal right on the land.

Utterly shocked to find myself agreeing with you 100% on this.

 

[jamahir]

Not possible to be nationalist while discriminating and persecuting the people of South Asia over race, religion, language, caste, or tribe.

Yes, that's a contradiction. But nationalism itself contradicts the idea of humanity. Rabindranath Tagore called nationalism a menace. The idea of the Nation State came only recently through the French Revolution as the path to abolish monarchy and feudalism but the Nation State and Nationalism became problems themselves.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I just got to know from your post about the Domari language from Wikipedia. Does that mean that the Doms and the Romas are the same people from the Subcontinent who went to West Asia, Central Asia, Africa and Europe ?

It's a mistake to think that these are recent developments. These may date back to between the 11th and 15th centuries. It is reported that very large numbers of 'entertainers' were taken back in the slave trains of armies returning to generally the Khorasan region. From there, they spread through the Iran-Iraq-Syria axis, forming the Domari community, while the drift continued into Egypt. Those who found themselves, by whatever mechanism, in Spain, and in the Balkans, were the core that later formed the European Roma.

I don't know that they were much into Central Asia or Africa, although Egypt is technically Africa, if it is Egypt that you meant.

It is interesting that these 'entertainers' were actually, truly the entertainers that we might not expect them to be. They had music, singing and dance in their blood. One of the little known consequences is the crushing impact they had on European native forms of music, dance and singing; flamenco and the fandango are both strongly bound to the gypsy tradition, and nearly extinguished native forms of dancing and singing:

"The 15th century saw the distinction created between the various genres. Serious and measured dances quickly grew outdated while the popularity of the happier and free-moving dances surged exponentially. With the Renaissance, popular and folk dance continued to make huge strides in the history of Spanish dance and even gained recognition internationally. These regional dances both flourished on their own and melded with other dances to birth brand new ones. You can imagine how many- at one point, there were over 200 traditional dances in the region of Catalonia alone!

During the Baroque* period, gypsies arrived to the Iberian continent and the growing popularity of the gypsy music and dance, flamenco, eagerly formed part of the history of Spanish dance. The rest is history- or rather Spanish dance history- as flamenco has since become both a national and international sensation. With feisty flamenco's ever-rising fame, regional dances suffered a decline- a decline which intensified during the 20th century, when the dictator Francisco Franco actually banned all things regional, including dance, music, and languages. Luckily today there has once again been a boost in the pride and the practice of traditional dances, and the history of Spanish dance continues!"

* 1585 to 1730 CE

Listening to flamenco music and connecting their rhythms to Kathak bols is so ridiculously easy, such an easy connect. Looking at them makes it easier

and the old country says it the same way, differently!

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Utterly shocked to find myself agreeing with you 100% on this.

I have always believed this and so does my ancestry. Ironically, it is the correct, righteous, and encompassing nationalism, which is Hindustani.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

My name here is Awara Pardesi and these are not empty words to me, they are my reality.

I belong a tribe of gypsies and our origin is with the untouchable Dalit caste and I am very proud of this. My tribe is caught between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan but now since we can’t get Indian visa and Afghan removed us, we are more comfortable in Pakistan and as Pakistanis

Unlike most people from our community, my family was in better position and I am educated and settled in the UK since last 3 years and I left Pakistan in 2009. Many of our relatives do not have any shanakhti cards.

You can ask me any question you like. I had written a long message on detail about the condition of my people but let us first start with introduction!

I am happy to be here

Welcome!

 

[jamahir]

I don't know that they were much into Central Asia or Africa, although Egypt is technically Africa, if it is Egypt that you meant.

Well, Central Asia was mentioned in the Wikipedia page for Domari language and it speaks of the African spread being :

Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco

It's a mistake to think that these are recent developments. These may date back to between the 11th and 15th centuries. It is reported that very large numbers of 'entertainers' were taken back in the slave trains of armies returning to generally the Khorasan region. From there, they spread through the Iran-Iraq-Syria axis, forming the Domari community, while the drift continued into Egypt. Those who found themselves, by whatever mechanism, in Spain, and in the Balkans, were the core that later formed the European Roma.

I don't know that they were much into Central Asia or Africa, although Egypt is technically Africa, if it is Egypt that you meant.

It is interesting that these 'entertainers' were actually, truly the entertainers that we might not expect them to be. They had music, singing and dance in their blood. One of the little known consequences is the crushing impact they had on European native forms of music, dance and singing; flamenco and the fandango are both strongly bound to the gypsy tradition, and nearly extinguished native forms of dancing and singing:

"The 15th century saw the distinction created between the various genres. Serious and measured dances quickly grew outdated while the popularity of the happier and free-moving dances surged exponentially. With the Renaissance, popular and folk dance continued to make huge strides in the history of Spanish dance and even gained recognition internationally. These regional dances both flourished on their own and melded with other dances to birth brand new ones. You can imagine how many- at one point, there were over 200 traditional dances in the region of Catalonia alone!

During the Baroque* period, gypsies arrived to the Iberian continent and the growing popularity of the gypsy music and dance, flamenco, eagerly formed part of the history of Spanish dance. The rest is history- or rather Spanish dance history- as flamenco has since become both a national and international sensation. With feisty flamenco's ever-rising fame, regional dances suffered a decline- a decline which intensified during the 20th century, when the dictator Francisco Franco actually banned all things regional, including dance, music, and languages. Luckily today there has once again been a boost in the pride and the practice of traditional dances, and the history of Spanish dance continues!"

* 1585 to 1730 CE

Listening to flamenco music and connecting their rhythms to Kathak bols is so ridiculously easy, such an easy connect. Looking at them makes it easier

and the old country says it the same way, differently!

Kathak is indeed to be seen in Flamenco though the latter doesn't seem to have the rotations in the former. Also, it seems that the Doms melded their original music with that from the places they stayed and moved on because to me flamenco sounds not much like Indian music including the dominant guitar and the vocalization. I also read many years ago that the "Ole" exclamation in Spanish music or other events comes from the Arabic "Wallah". A borrowing. And speaking of mixing perhaps Macarena, the beautiful first flamenco dancer in the first vid may have Al Andalus blood :

@Bilal9 @Zibago, what say you ?

Lastly, I must recount a happening associated with flamenco music. A friend of mine, Bengali from Calcutta, is an amateur guitar player with liking of flamenco and knows some Spanish. I used to sometimes sit in his room where he slept on a gadda so I sat near the wall opposite him and beside me was the cemented clothes cupboard and above me was the thin cement ledge. The guitar was generally beside where I sat. At some points when I spoke with my baritone voice the voice bounced off the thin ledge above me and twanged the guitar's strings.

 

[Zibago]

@Bilal9 @Zibago, what say you ?

I was just watching this video

First let me turn on my tharki mode

Lastly, I must recount a happening associated with flamenco music. A friend of mine, Bengali from Calcutta, is an amateur guitar player with liking of flamenco and knows some Spanish. I used to sometimes sit in his room where he slept on a gadda so I sat near the wall opposite him and beside me was the cemented clothes cupboard and above me was the thin cement ledge. The guitar was generally beside where I sat. At some points when I spoke with my baritone voice the voice bounced off the thin ledge above me and twanged the guitar's strings.

A friend of mine learned to play violin after a breakup but I have never been good with instruments though I did participate in some singing competitions during uni (first prize)

My name here is Awara Pardesi and these are not empty words to me, they are my reality.

I belong a tribe of gypsies and our origin is with the untouchable Dalit caste and I am very proud of this. My tribe is caught between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan but now since we can’t get Indian visa and Afghan removed us, we are more comfortable in Pakistan and as Pakistanis

Unlike most people from our community, my family was in better position and I am educated and settled in the UK since last 3 years and I left Pakistan in 2009. Many of our relatives do not have any shanakhti cards.

You can ask me any question you like. I had written a long message on detail about the condition of my people but let us first start with introduction!

I am happy to be here

Welcome to pdf

I do have frequent interactions with your community but I must say the biggest blight on you guys is drug usage

 

[jamahir]

though I did participate in some singing competitions during uni (first prize)

Proof or it didn't happen.