Asim munier murda bad: skardu

[SecularNationalist]

Gen Asim Whisky should get the Gaddafi treatment and the rest of his
family should be put in D class jail in Attock for life.

Gaddafi was better than this shitbag.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

There was a time I made a lot of topics, majority hypothetical based on ideas which can be implemented practically, mostly in Army and PAF sections. In fact, some changes were seen in PA that I had mentioned in those topics coz maybe they were practical however most was hypothetical though not a wish list.

Recently, I saw a change. The people who never came out on streets to protest against rising petrol prices had come out against electricity bills. So something finally pushed the people. I had expected the same when IK was jailed recently but it’s the electricity bills which gave pain to public more than anything else.

Similarly, What will make lawyers come out on streets against army just like in 07/08. Should the CJ be put in danger again ? Should the courts be made a mockery of by the public ? Should public come out against the courts ?

Lawyers are a notorious bunch. They vandalise the same courts where they earn money from. So courts are susceptible to be trashed anytime.

If public can come on the roads then so can lawyers as well as journalists. If they all join hands, then that’s a weapon which can be used to bring in retired senior officers through information leading to cases against them. Cases can be made in all cities where these officers have served during their tenure in military service.

Yeah I’ve seen your posts for a while. You do add a lot of knowledge and perspective to this discussion.

I try to mostly stay away from Pakistani internal affairs as they’re none of my damn business, mostly.

However, this subject and discussion- the military’s evolving role in Pakistani society - interests me from an intellectual standpoint, and I’m jumping in feet first

I don’t think that the strategy of going after generals or officers after they retire is a feasible one. It reeks too much of a witch hunt, plus no serving officer will support it, because they know it will be their turn to be thus targeted in a few years. It won’t happen.

What PA needs to understand- as a core principle and institutional memory (that is, systemic knowledge as opposed to just a few officers who get it) - is that the more the armed forces engages with the public, the less respect it gets. Period. And conversely the less PA comes out in the open, the more powerful it will get.

What’s the difference between the police and the army in today’s India? Why is the army respected (in most parts of the nation) and the police feared / hated / looked at with contempt everywhere? The answer is that one institution rarely interacts with the public, the other by nature is public facing.

In fact I’d argue that the typical class one police office in India (IPS or Indian Police Service) is far more educated, academically qualified and with a greater maturity than the army officer. But the IA officer is given huge natural respect and affection, while the IPS officer is feared and sometimes hated.

As soon as PA really gets this lesson and implements it by fading into the background, it will recover its preeminent position in Pakistani society. It just needs to get subtler.

Let the politicians, police and bureaucrats earn the abuses and gaalis. PA should bask in the background.

The other route - more and more public exposure and overt decision making - will make it worse for PA.

I’ll also say this - mark my words. The best thing for PA is that they allow IK to be PM, give him all the rope he wants.

I admire IK, but in six months in power everyone will be abusing him - because that’s what happens to politicians everywhere. In a year many Pakistanis will be saying that perhaps the PA wasnt as bad as they thought. This is how politics works, and PA is failing to understand the new ground realities.

 

[imadul]

The stink of the leadership eventually permeates the entire organization.

While I completely agree that the average foot soldier may not be guilty, this scale of intervention in the elections, judiciary, law enforcement, media, illegal surveillance and buying and selling of Politicians is not the work of just one or two or even a few men at the top - there are thousands of people involved and there is no way the rest of the top tier military leadership (and perhaps quite a few of the mid-level officers) does not know what the Fauj is doing, and they are choosing to do nothing and stay silent (barring the individuals that leaked the cipher to the Intercept).

The chiefs leave after 3 years, or 6 or 10 … You’re not going to make it painful enough for the Fauj to change by just focusing on the chiefs. Criticism will be (and should be) directed at the institution to make it lose respect and credibility (already pretty much there) to the point that it sees more harm in continuing its constitutional violations than benefits.

An oft used analogy of cancer - the cancer has spread through the body, half measures and targeted surgery won’t work - complete chemo and radiation therapy is required to root it out and even then we can only hope its not too late for the patient to survive.

Completely agree.
Fall out of the generalcracy will be on the entire army too.
Despite all of that, soldiers give their lives and doing their duty.
Criticize, but we should not use the words like "palid" for the entire army.
This is unacceptable.

Note: just to be clear, the word palid was not used by @AgNoStiC MuSliM but another forum member.

 

[shah_123]

Take Turkiye for example, first the political leadership made economic progress, made ppl aware of their rights, and when the day came, same ppl stood against the military

only a faction (associated with gulen movement) within Turkiye army attempted coup --- Our's case is totally different, our soldiers stand behind (rock solid) their army chief --- good,bad or ugly, they will always say Yes Sir .

 

[imadul]

Before taking out army from politics we need to have some basic and fundamental restructuring done in the politics side.

1. Change in election rules, if want proper democracy then remove this family politics from our political system.

2. Just like western system, head of parties should be seasoned politicians and they should be selected for a fixed term and replaced by new cadre, so we are not stuck with just a few for decades. And no family members to succeed or even given any key post in party or govt.

3. Conflict of interest should be introduced. Businessman, industrialists, jagirdars etc should be cut from politics.

4. Based on 1 province result, no one should rule whole of Pakistan. Whoever wins Punjab, rules all other 3 provinces.

5. Reduce number of MNA and MPAs and they should be good education qualified.
Their JD should be to listen to their people and with help of govt and bureaucracy resolve hardships and legislature.

6. Key posts in ministry should be highly qualified ppl like in USA. President selects professional ppl and runs with oversight of congressman and senators.

7. Elections should be party majority win based. A party should come and its head is responsible to run the country for 5 years and make policies based on ground realities rather then blackmailed by army chief or politicians. Like taxes on property, smuggling stoppage, agri income tax etc etc.

8. Army power in hand of a single person to be abolished. COAS should not be so powerful.

9. Reduce number of lt generals and maj generals and brigadiers. Give brigade command to full Cols, div to brigadier, corps to major generals and only sector commander be Lt Gen that also just 2-3 ones, not more. CJCSC should have administrative command of corps commanders ensuring postings and promotions are his prerogative. Same for air force and navy.

Israeli Army is a role model. Colonel commands Brigade, Brigadier Commands a Division and the IDF chief is a Major General who reports to Chief of General Staff who is a Lt General.

Our army gives brigadier and maj gen and lt gen promotions and positions as if public langar khanaaa hai.

We have 2 full gens, 30+ or so Lt Gens and 210-220+ major generals making something like 250 generals leaving aside double the number of brigadiers.

USA army who are double our size and much more complicated and professional have total 220-230 generals.

10. Control the army business empire and make them a professional soldiers instead of property dealers and heading civilian posts which they r not qualified for. 2 decades of war and our army cannot provide basic armoured like MRAP or small arms protected vehicles to army and they wanna run the country. First run ur army. Today 9 soldiers martyred in suicide attack in Bannu, a motorbike borne suicide bomber.

And i can keep on going as we need very serious structural changes in our political setup, economic setup and military setup.

Law of the land is to be made supreme so ppl can get justice as what we are seeing since last 3 months is utter brutality which is giving more hatred and increasing day by day especially with the economic meltdown we are going through.

Dont wait that people reach to your army walaaa and politicians homes. Times are changing, last few months have clearly shown ppl now will not be distracted by shaheed card, statue of karnal sher khan card even though it was never his statue as he was from Sindh regt and martyred in NLI thus his statue cannot be infront of PRC mardan, and the jinnah house card as now whole nation knows how army captured this place and the words to give some money to the boorhiyaa / and kutia word used came to be known. So whatever card army is playing its failing miserably.

So army leadership koo hosh kae nakhun lainay chahiyea or we may face very dire situation.

Bhai Saheb, a little short would be helpful for many.
I could not read full but got the gist of it.

Till army rule not ended no reforms possible. It is a chicken and egg situation <>

 

[HerbertPervert]

only a faction (associated with gulen movement) within Turkiye army attempted coup --- Our's case is totally different, our soldiers stand behind (rock solid) their army chief --- good,bad or ugly, they will always say Yes Sir .

This wouldn't be happening if the ISI was separate from the military. Army control over the ISI is what allows any fool who becomes COAS to become a Pharoah.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Bhai Saheb, a little short would be helpful for many.
I could not read full but got the gist of it.

Till army rule not ended no reforms possible. It is a chicken and egg situation <>

My simple point was that if baighairat generals are so patriots and worried abt Pakistan, then they should ensure such reforms happen outside and within themselves also, otherwise same old politicians will keep coming.

But problem is these generals have no love left for the country, all they worry if how much they make themselves in service and at retirement and even after that.

 

[Puffin]

 

[TaimiKhan]

only a faction (associated with gulen movement) within Turkiye army attempted coup --- Our's case is totally different, our soldiers stand behind (rock solid) their army chief --- good,bad or ugly, they will always say Yes Sir .

But it was still substantial, major army assets with helicopters and airforce jets were deployed. Armed helis fires and aircraft dropped bombs. So major players were involved, but still ppl came out that is the main thing.

And as for our army, yes u r right, but as this economical crunch deepens, it will affect the lower ranks most and may lead to issues.

 

[PakCan]

https://x.com/imranaraja1/status/1697604092250493416?s=46&t=PRTNEcRDgAIn_oj1v-K3ZA

Wtf is going on.

 

[maithil]

https://x.com/imranaraja1/status/1697604092250493416?s=46&t=PRTNEcRDgAIn_oj1v-K3ZA

Wtf is going on.

Only sadist person can do this. Doing this to a child...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But problem is these generals have no love left for the country, all they worry if how much they make themselves in service and at retirement and even after that.

That is the most troubling part of this situation. For a long time we assumed that the Army leadership always had the best interests of the country at heart and good intentions.

Unfortunately, its increasingly becoming clear that the Army leadership does not care about the country or citizens so long as they can maintain their hegemony and control.

Pervaiz Illahi essentially abducted today by the Fauj despite CLEAR orders from the Islamabad High Court for his release.

This is now basically undeclared Martial Law, and an extremely vicious and fascist one that is focused on retaining power at all costs - so outside of international sanctions and/or a massive uprising against the Fauj on the streets, I don’t see the Fauj changing course.

 

[imadul]

My simple point was that if baighairat generals are so patriots and worried abt Pakistan, then they should ensure such reforms happen outside and within themselves also, otherwise same old politicians will keep coming.

But problem is these generals have no love left for the country, all they worry if how much they make themselves in service and at retirement and even after that.

Generals have slapped us so hard we are still stunned.
Army is ruling party and ruling class so no chance army can reform from within, that much we know.
Only solution is people revolution.

If PDF can give any indication, revolution has already come here.
Ripples already outside and there is just one chance, which is this revolution will succeed.
We should keep the hope.

 

[Bilal.]

In firouno ko Allah ghark kare, dozakh ki gehrayon mien phaike inko.

 

[Jango]

@Signalian you keep saying they made his seat higher.

Though you are correct that they supported him coming to power (did not oppose him) - but what if I told you IK's power was trimmed not increased. Yes there were a few seats that would normally fall out of his support base where there was some careful manicuring (he was made to win) but in totality his seats were curtailed not increased. IK had around 15-20 seats at the MNA level that were pulled.

For example in Karachi his support base was reduced. He did much better in KHI than people were expecting. But the powers that be did not like that narrative and they wanted a stronger PPP win in Sindh. So they pulled some of seats. Such careful execution was seen in other areas well. Now we know why.


Tigers are noble creatures!

Read Khwaja Asif's own admission.