Asia needs NATO-style alliance against China: LDP lawmaker

[TheTruth]

if Japan gets the bomb the first two will have "Los Angeles" and "Chicago" written on them

This makes me so sad.

 

[bolo]

if Japan gets the bomb the first two will have "Los Angeles" and "Chicago" written on them

This makes me so sad.

Not really because if that is the case, Japanese will be like the dinosaurs.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Send weapon or sell? Because nobody will turn down free weapon, but that's essentially asking Japan to foot Philippine's bill. While Japan has done this before for US, since it is an semi-colony and literally has no choice but to do so, but I really don't see Japan does it for Philippine. As for buying weapon from Japan...Japan's F-2 cost 127 million USD per plane and it is literally a Chinese Chengdu J10A with slower speed, significantly less maneuverability, can only shoot sea and cost six times more money. Philippines are actually better off importing things from India than Japan.

while you just picked up F-2 example,you could pick up which is actually applicable for Philippines.they could go for second hand warships,cargo aircrafts,helos,battlefield equipment,patrol boats etc.F-2 is Japan's custom made F-16(somewhat larger and more modern),while cost escalation was due to various licensing fee.

 

[tranquilium]

while you just picked up F-2 example,you could pick up which is actually applicable for Philippines.they could go for second hand warships,cargo aircrafts,helos,battlefield equipment,patrol boats etc.F-2 is Japan's custom made F-16(somewhat larger and more modern),while cost escalation was due to various licensing fee.

Hmm, let's see what else Japan have in its arsenal. Forget about heliocopters carriers, Philippine will never be able to afford it. Japan has the Atago-class guided missile cruiser with AEGIS. The downside? It cost $1.48 billion per ship with no missile above 200km range. Its direct counterpart Chinese 52C cost less than half of that and has more than twice the range.
There is the type 10 main battle tank for the land force. The problem? It costs $11.3 million per tank, more than twice of a Leopard 2. It is also outperformed by top of the line MBT from US, China, Russia, Germany by a long margin, particularly in the armor department where it may as well be made of paper. In fact, its essentially performs as T-96 from China, but T-96 is 1/16 the cost of Type 10.
You'd be very hard press to pick out anything coming out of Japanese arsenal that is not horrendously overpriced and its performance, while decent by less powers' standards, is nowhere close to what the major nations are fielding. This is due to the unique development history of Japanese arms industry. After WWII, many restrictions are placed on Japan to limit its military development. Internally, most of the resource in Japan also went to economic development rather than military. The end result is that Japanese arms industry faces a very small, but consistent market for its product. Basically, there is also a demand for equipment, but the quantity is extremely small. Without large orders, individual unit price of Japanese gears becomes more and more expensive, (And this applies to Japanese civilian products as well) but with a consistent demand, the arms producers never really cared about ways to reduce the cost. Essentially, this is the fabled "expensive, but high quality approach" with a twist, because "high quality" only applies when the products are standing on similar technological level, but without mass production, innovation comes quite slowly. Combined with the restrictions placed on Japan, the end result are military equipments that are second rate comparing to the major power's and horrendously expensive. In practice, had Philippines really need an influx of weapon, it is much better off buying stuff from US, Europe or even Middle East rather than Japan.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Hmm, let's see what else Japan have in its arsenal. Forget about heliocopters carriers, Philippine will never be able to afford it. Japan has the Atago-class guided missile cruiser with AEGIS. The downside? It cost $1.48 billion per ship with no missile above 200km range. Its direct counterpart Chinese 52C cost less than half of that and has more than twice the range.
There is the type 10 main battle tank for the land force. The problem? It costs $11.3 million per tank, more than twice of a Leopard 2. It is also outperformed by top of the line MBT from US, China, Russia, Germany by a long margin, particularly in the armor department where it may as well be made of paper. In fact, its essentially performs as T-96 from China, but T-96 is 1/16 the cost of Type 10.
You'd be very hard press to pick out anything coming out of Japanese arsenal that is not horrendously overpriced and its performance, while decent by less powers' standards, is nowhere close to what the major nations are fielding. This is due to the unique development history of Japanese arms industry. After WWII, many restrictions are placed on Japan to limit its military development. Internally, most of the resource in Japan also went to economic development rather than military. The end result is that Japanese arms industry faces a very small, but consistent market for its product. Basically, there is also a demand for equipment, but the quantity is extremely small. Without large orders, individual unit price of Japanese gears becomes more and more expensive, (And this applies to Japanese civilian products as well) but with a consistent demand, the arms producers never really cared about ways to reduce the cost. Essentially, this is the fabled "expensive, but high quality approach" with a twist, because "high quality" only applies when the products are standing on similar technological level, but without mass production, innovation comes quite slowly. Combined with the restrictions placed on Japan, the end result are military equipments that are second rate comparing to the major power's and horrendously expensive. In practice, had Philippines really need an influx of weapon, it is much better off buying stuff from US, Europe or even Middle East rather than Japan.

you're mixing my points with arms assistance.its not which Arm Platform Japan could provide.see,Japan,under some 70 years of pacifist policy,lost its edge in Arms Sector.though whatever they got was always top of the line,but mostly purchased from USA.and Philippines isn't a rich country who could purchase top of the line ships,tanks or fighter jets.but lets see,how Japan could help Philippines...


Training-----Nobody could doubt Japan's capability.their Army,Navy and Airforce is highly capable.they could provide training to Philippines Military on Amphibious Warfare,Maritime Patrolling,limited Air Engagement,just like what USA and Australia doing.

Joint Patrol---they could use their ships to patrol and secure Philippines' maritime boundary,just like what many country including India does to its smaller but closely related neighbours.

Arms Aid--- Patrol Boats and some larger OPV could do good for Philippines.there were reports that Philippines could purchase few Indian Frigates(or maybe modified OPVs,Indian OPVs are large enough than many country's frigates).along with it,some Hayabusa class Guided missile patrol vessel would be perfect for them.

Financial Aid--- Financial Aid which may sponsor many of their military purchase would do great

Deployment-- if there will be "Asean NATO",deployment of ones equipment will be the cornerstone.in that case,Philippines will inadvertently get SAM cover as well as possible deployment of Coastal Radars,UAVs,even ABM like THAAD.plus,there are talks of handovering 2 crucial bases to USA(one AF base to USAF while opening crucial Subic Bay to USN)

any grouping like this one never works like the way you're thinking.they purchase enough resource to deter any possible enemy while post their resources in strategic positions.

 

[tranquilium]

you're mixing my points with arms assistance.its not which Arm Platform Japan could provide.see,Japan,under some 70 years of pacifist policy,lost its edge in Arms Sector.though whatever they got was always top of the line,but mostly purchased from USA.and Philippines isn't a rich country who could purchase top of the line ships,tanks or fighter jets.but lets see,how Japan could help Philippines...


Training-----Nobody could doubt Japan's capability.their Army,Navy and Airforce is highly capable.they could provide training to Philippines Military on Amphibious Warfare,Maritime Patrolling,limited Air Engagement,just like what USA and Australia doing.

Erm, look, if their response at Fukushima is anything to go by, JSDF probably need training from Philippines rather than the other way around. I mean, these are the "soldiers" that needs their own body guards when they went to Afghanistan. I really wouldn't call JSDF "highly capable". Even calling them capable is a stretch.

Joint Patrol---they could use their ships to patrol and secure Philippines' maritime boundary,just like what many country including India does to its smaller but closely related neighbours.

Judging by the current exhausted state of JMSF just keeping up with Chinese sea police at Diaoyu island, I really don't think they actually have the capacity to patrol around Philippines.

Arms Aid--- Patrol Boats and some larger OPV could do good for Philippines.there were reports that Philippines could purchase few Indian Frigates(or maybe modified OPVs,Indian OPVs are large enough than many country's frigates).along with it,some Hayabusa class Guided missile patrol vessel would be perfect for them.

Again, there is the cost involved. I have spent the last two posts explained this point: while there are stuff from Japan Philippines may have a use, they are all horrendously expensive and no one in the right mind would buy them if they have an alternative.

Financial Aid--- Financial Aid which may sponsor many of their military purchase would do great

This part is true. Financial aid is always welcome, but ask yourself this. You are asking Japan to foot Philippine's bill. How likely are they going to do it?

Deployment-- if there will be "Asean NATO",deployment of ones equipment will be the cornerstone.in that case,Philippines will inadvertently get SAM cover as well as possible deployment of Coastal Radars,UAVs,even ABM like THAAD.plus,there are talks of handovering 2 crucial bases to USA(one AF base to USAF while opening crucial Subic Bay to USN)

The fundamental problem with this line of thinking is that people somehow think they can make US fight their battle for them. The very purpose US props up Philippine or Japan in Asia is for them to fight China so US would not need to come into conflict with China.

any grouping like this one never works like the way you're thinking.they purchase enough resource to deter any possible enemy while post their resources in strategic positions.

Right, did the actual NATO actually do this? Of course not. NATO is made up by a large number of nations with varied and often conflicting interests. For example, France and US are both in NATO, but there is no way France is going to let US determine where their forces are posted or operates.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Erm, look, if their response at Fukushima is anything to go by, JSDF probably need training from Philippines rather than the other way around. I mean, these are the "soldiers" that needs their own body guards when they went to Afghanistan. I really wouldn't call JSDF "highly capable". Even calling them capable is a stretch.

thats sarcasm.right???

Judging by the current exhausted state of JMSF just keeping up with Chinese sea police at Diaoyu island, I really don't think they actually have the capacity to patrol around Philippines.

don't know what gave you this idea.there is nothing to "Keep Up" in sea policing.Chinese ships sometimes patrol international/territorial waters around Daioyu.same does their aircraft do.thats hardly anything to be proud off.but in case you want to know their "Exhausted" state,read this...fairly accurate description about their plans ahead.

Inside Japan’s New Defense Plan | USNI News

Again, there is the cost involved. I have spent the last two posts explained this point: while there are stuff from Japan Philippines may have a use, they are all horrendously expensive and no one in the right mind would buy them if they have an alternative.

its not if comes as an aid.see,there is reason why stuffs of JSDF is expensive.first,its quality,and second its quantity.purchasing small number of platforms generally costs more than bulk purchasing.but that doesn't mean they're not ideal for purchasing.India is purchasing some Amphibious Aircrafts from Japan,costly nonetheless,but more capable than others.

This part is true. Financial aid is always welcome, but ask yourself this. You are asking Japan to foot Philippine's bill. How likely are they going to do it?

thats they way world operates buddy.I'm sharing some details about India.Indian Coast Guard and Navy are paying costs for various platforms operating in our neighbourhood.like we're paying for OPVs,Helos,Patrol Aircrafts etc which countries like Maldives operate.but why should India fund it???to take them under our security grid.see,pirates are big threat for Maldives.we gave them these platforms.they gave us access to their atolls where we installed coastal radars,and linked them with ours.that means,we now has access to a vast range of area which can be used strategical purposes.in this world,nothing is free.

The fundamental problem with this line of thinking is that people somehow think they can make US fight their battle for them. The very purpose US props up Philippine or Japan in Asia is for them to fight China so US would not need to come into conflict with China.

of course not.USA isn't going to fight for them.but they'll provide everything which might be used against China nonetheless.they'll get bases and will operate various platforms against China from it,be it Maritime Patrol AIrcraft,Listning Station,Intelligence ship,or even Submarines,just like Cold war time,when US Subs lurked around Russian sub bases just to follow any subs/ships thats departing from their bases.plus,main target will be to create a bloc which will eventually bogged down China.see,USA never allows any neighbours to play dirty game with them.but thats what they do with others.to make them bogged down in their own neighbourhood so that they never get a chance to look beyond it.Think Philippines as USA/Japan's Turkey.

Right, did the actual NATO actually do this? Of course not. NATO is made up by a large number of nations with varied and often conflicting interests. For example, France and US are both in NATO, but there is no way France is going to let US determine where their forces are posted or operates.

yup,they have their differences as part of their national ambitions.but their common ambitions superseded it.they prevented SU for 45 years,did it not???if there was no NATO,you would read about multiple destructive wars and millions of people died in Europe after 1945.its a group of countries which eventually deterred SU from attacking.

 

[seven7seven]

No matter how much Japan, Vietnam, India and Philipines want to form alliances to counter-balance China, eventually, China will get its way. It's only a matter of time, and China is patient, and have time on their side. Any measures to contain China will only, at best, cause minor irritation to China.

 

[Zero_wing]

I don't know, why did you?:

"South Vietnamese forces (Republic of Vietnam) invaded the island in 1975, when Filipino soldiers guarding the island attended the birthday party of their commanding officer based in the nearby Northeast Cay. A confirmed report came out that Vietnamese prostitutes were sent by Vietnamese officials to the birthday party, supposedly a sign of good brotherhood between the forces, but was actually used to lure the Filipino soldiers guarding the island. Filipino forces apparently planned on attacking the island, thus it would have led to a war, but Vietnamese forces were able to erect a huge garrison in the island within few weeks"

Beware their prostitute counter-attack.

Hahaha really a wiki post nice try but people rewrite that post like your disputed claims to the world its full of bull

No matter how much Japan, Vietnam, India and Philipines want to form alliances to counter-balance China, eventually, China will get its way. It's only a matter of time, and China is patient, and have time on their side. Any measures to contain China will only, at best, cause minor irritation to China.

funny the Romans, the Spanish, Napoleon's french empire, Even your arrogant ancestors all said that and yet were are they now?

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

 

[TheTruth]

Hahaha really a wiki post nice try but people rewrite that post like your disputed claims to the world its full of bull



funny the Romans, the Spanish, Napoleon's french empire, Even your arrogant ancestors all said that and yet were are they now?

You're retarded. Just stop typing.

 

[Zero_wing]

You're retarded. Just stop typing.

Hahahahaha your claim a whole sea plus more lands were people already live on work on clearly by all logic does not belong to F@cking china and your calling me retreaded? F@ck you imperialist $hitHole

 

[TheTruth]

Hahahahaha your claim a whole sea plus more lands were people already live on work on clearly by all logic does not belong to F@cking china and your calling me retreaded? F@ck you imperialist $hitHole

China doesn't claim the whole sea, fucktard. You apparently think murdering anyone in your EEZ is legal under UNCLOS, but then again monkeys don't read much.

 

[Commander T]

Kyodo News International March 6, 2014

Japan should aim to create a multilateral security alliance in Asia similar to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to counterbalance China's military buildup, a senior ruling party lawmaker said Thursday.

Shigeru Ishiba, secretary general of the Liberal Democratic Party, also said in a speech to fellow lawmakers that Japan should remove its self-imposed ban on the right to collective self-defense, saying he is on the same page as Prime Minister Shinzo Abe regarding that "long-cherished wish."

"It will become necessary for us to have an Asian version of NATO," Ishiba said. "We will likely see a continued rise in China's defense budget, and U.S. influence waning. So we need a balance here in the region with China."

The LDP's No. 2 man unveiled a vision to create a network in Asia of security alliances at a time when China's growing aerial and maritime assertiveness is keeping Japan and other Asian countries on alert.

Currently, Japan and some Asian countries such as the Philippines have separate bilateral alliances with the United States, which has emphasized its "pivot" to Asia despite budgetary constraints.

Earlier in the day, Ishiba discussed with Abe steps toward lifting the ban on exercising the right to collective self-defense after gaining support from the New Komeito party, the LDP's ruling coalition partner.

Ishiba said if Japan fails to lift the ban now "it won't be possible for quite a while," but New Komeito is more cautious about expanding Japan's security role in the region.

Removing the ban would allow Japan to defend allies under armed attack even when Japan has not been attacked. But the issue remains divisive at home, given it would mark a major change in the postwar security framework under the war-renouncing Constitution.

Abe is aiming to change the current interpretation carried over from past governments that Japan has the right to collective self-defense but cannot exercise it due to the limitations of Article 9, which forbids the use of force to settle international disputes and only allows the minimum for self-defense.

Asia needs NATO-style alliance against China: LDP lawmaker | GlobalPost

it,s like "Asia needs NATO-style alliance against China+pakistan+iran+srilanka+bangladesh+malaysia+indonasia+any other" or its more like " USA-India needs NATO-style alliance against China"

 

[eazzy]

Asia is too dependent on China.