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Asaduddin Owaisi tells Pakistan to stop meddling in Kashmir

Personal opinion - not suitable for the terrain (which is undulating) and difficult to deploy.

UGS (unattended ground sensors) are equally painful. More false positives.

I see... Thanks for your opinion..

Wait. What happened with the moderators now :p :p :p :p

@Joe Shearer I am looking for Akbar khans book online. You keep mentioning his work again and again. Is it Kashmir war 1948-49 a war of missed opportunities? The one as you cite as source from our account.
 
V. P. Menon? The advisor to British viceroys of India and later the Deputy Prime Minister of India?
The man played a vital role in the accession of Princely states to India predicated on fraud and violence, before and after partition. No one could be more unreliable than him when it came to the history of the unification of the princely states with the Indian Union.

Please point me to any other account by a responsible person who lived through those days. My difficulty is that when I quote Pakistani sources who are in print, Akbar Khan and Tariq Ali, their accounts are dismissed; when I quote Indian sources in print, they are dismissed.

Anybody left? :D

And the Prince of Patiala was the first Indian Prince to accede his state to India. The very fact that Patiala was not an independent state but a part of India between August and October 1947 nullifies your argument of Patiala forces acting 'independently'

Do take a look at Menon. You will find what gymnastics they had to go through to fit in both the states and their princes' egos. :enjoy:
 
Please point me to any other account by a responsible person who lived through those days. My difficulty is that when I quote Pakistani sources who are in print, Akbar Khan and Tariq Ali, their accounts are dismissed; when I quote Indian sources in print, they are dismissed.

Anybody left? :D
Well, you do the same when we provide any reference.don't you?
 
I see... Thanks for your opinion..

Wait. What happened with the moderators now :p :p :p :p

@Joe Shearer I am looking for Akbar khans book online. You keep mentioning his work again and again. Is it Kashmir war 1948-49 a war of missed opportunities? The one as you cite as source from our account.

It's lying in Dera Bassi. Just a second - Raiders in Kashmir. That's it.
 
I stand corrected. We did not sign.

Our reply to the original telegram:

"Government of India wou:id be glad if you or some other Minister duly authorised in this behalf could fly to Delhi for negotiating Standstill Agreement between Kashmir Government and India dominion. Early action desirable to maintain intact exlsting agreements and administrative arrangements."

So, does the above indicate an emphatic refusal of the same?

What matters is that India didn't accept Maharaja's proposal to sign a Standstill Agreement with his state. 'Reasons' and 'Intent' do not matter. As per the Standstill Agreement, Pakistan alone (to the exclusion of India) was to continue those services which had been carried out for Kashmir under the British.
 
Well, you do the same when we provide any reference.don't you?

No.

I don't.

What matters is that India didn't accept Maharaja's proposal to sign a Standstill Agreement with his state. 'Reasons' and 'Intent' do not matter. As per the Standstill Agreement, Pakistan alone (to the exclusion of India) was to continue those services which had been carried out for Kashmir under the British.

Of course.

That was the whole point.

It was about providing services for the interval before a final decision was taken. This was a commercial arrangement.

Before getting into this, my suggestion, which you are free to disregard, is to find out what the Instrument of Accession was about; when and how it was composed, and for what purpose and applicable to whom.

It might help you to form conclusions rather more easily.

even Mahraja signed accession on some conditions and that's the reason you have article 370 and 35A.
Try to read it:
so much autonomy in it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Accession_(Jammu_and_Kashmir)
  1. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the governor-general of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall, by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu and Kashmir (hereinafter referred to as "this State") such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th day of August, 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter referred to as "the Act").
  2. I hereby assume the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to the provisions of the ACT within this state so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession.
  3. I accept the matters specified in the schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislatures may make laws for this state.
  4. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India on the assurance that if an agreement is made between the Governor General and the ruler of this state whereby any functions in relation to the administration in this state of any law of the Dominion Legislature shall be exercised by the ruler of this state, then any such agreement shall be deem to form part of this Instrument and shall be construed and have effect accordingly.
  5. The terms of this my Instrument of accession shall not be varied by any amendment of the Act or of the Indian Independence Act, 1947 unless such amendment is accepted by me by an Instrument supplementary to this Instrument.
  6. Nothing in this Instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this state authorizing the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purposes of a Dominion law which applies in this state deem it necessary to acquire any land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense or if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed, or, in default of agreement, determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Chief Justice Of India.
  7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit me in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India or to fetter my discretion to enter into arrangements with the Government of India under any such future constitution.
  8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my sovereignty in and over this state, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this state or the validity of any law at present in force in this state.
  9. I hereby declare that I execute this Instrument on behalf of this state and that any reference in this Instrument to me or to the ruler of the state is to be construed as including to my heirs and successors.
Given under my hand this 26th day of OCTOBER nineteen hundred and forty seven.

Hari Singh

Maharajadhiraj of Jammu and Kashmir State.

I do hereby accept this Instrument of Accession. Dated this twenty seventh day of October, nineteen hundred and forty seven.

(Mountbatten of Burma, Governor General of India).

The accession does clearly indicate that with so much autonomy Kashmir can never be a part of india.
 
What matters is that India didn't accept Maharaja's proposal to sign a Standstill Agreement with his state. 'Reasons' and 'Intent' do not matter. As per the Standstill Agreement, Pakistan alone (to the exclusion of India) was to continue those services which had been carried out for Kashmir under the British.

You are also, dear Sir, mistaken about the exclusion of India. The same arrangement was sought with India; India refused. That did not in any way give Pakistan exclusive rights over dealing with Kashmir, forget about permanent status, even in terms of commercial agreements.

I was not pointing you but all indians.

In future, please point only at me. I am not known to family, friends, acquaintances or 'friends' on Facebook as 'all Indians'. :D
 
Sir, that did not mean that the administration was immediately taken over. Nor did it mean that the Patiala State forces came under Indian Army control. Please do spend a little extra time reading up on the role of the Patiala troops and the conversations between the Maharajas of Patiala and J&K.

Going by the same logic, Pakistan cannot be held responsible for the tribal invasion and alleged military support by few officers who were acting 'independently' and the newly created State of Pakistan had no control over them !!


And Sir, do you know during the Security Council debates, many times Pakistani diplomats presented the same Argument while defending their position on Kashmir as what the Indian diplomats had argued while defending their actions in Junagadh? ...

You can't have it both ways, sir ....
 
This is where I would like to place on record my respect for the deep understanding of the subject that has been displayed by @M. Sarmad (first and foremost, a partner in the discussion whom we sincerely respect), @AgNoStiC MuSliM, who has written with a firm grip on Pakistan's case, and @ice Cold, who has clearly done his homework.

Both @Vibrio and I have engaged with these three members - I should not speak for him, but ask him and others to bear with me - with respect; I believe that our language and our arguments reflect that respect. If at all it has fallen short of the highest standards of courtesy and civilised interaction, I would like to personally beg your pardon. If I - here I speak for myself, to absolve @Vibrio of any complicity in my failures - have refuted or contradicted some of the arguments that have been put forward, it is emphatically not due to any impression that those are put forward due to any lack of integrity.

Having said that, I would like to venture further afield. Why is there such a difference in the perception of these issues, on the Pakistani side, consistently, and on the Indian side, consistently? Let me put my own evaluation of the meta-logic - the logic behind the choice and selection of the logical arguments used - that seems to structure the views, the evidence gathering and the choice of exploratory fields.

On the Pakistani side, there is a feeling of having been cheated, again and again, not merely during the freedom struggle, but beyond that, during our long and abrasive years of co-existence.

First, the struggle rapidly saw the falling away of the professional Muslim classes, who saw their interests as distinctly under threat from the much larger Hindu professional classes (neither the Sikhs nor the Christians, forget about the Dalit or the tribal, seems to have been seen as threats, only the Hindus were); from a very early stage, from 1905, the first partition of Bengal itself. So the remarkable unity shown by the nascent middle classes and the artisan and leading craftsman classes in Indian society during the earlier agitation led by Surendranath Bannerjee was entirely depleted by the Muslim perception that Curzon's brazen divisive action, intended specifically to divide Indian society, and to defang the utterly disliked Bengali babu, was good for the left-behind Muslim upwardly mobile aspirations. In a year, in 1906, the Muslim League was formed; where and how? In Dhaka itself, the seat of the Muslim feeling that partitioning Bengal gave Muslims their place in the Sun that was being denied. How? By gathering the delegates to the All India conference on Muslim education! Can anything make it clearer where the Muslims felt that their interests lay? To them, education and Muslim separatism resonated; the separation was necessary to speed up education among the Muslims; speeding up was necessary because precious years had been lost in mourning the loss of empire in 1857, and the distinct shift in British sympathy away from the Muslim, especially the Muslim upper classes, who, inevitably, formed the corps of the Muslim professional classes, both due to social leadership, and due to financial and family support. Nothing could be done until and unless the Muslim aspirations to partnership in governing the country were met by a role in government and in the professions, and nothing could be done to satisfy these until Muslims were educated.

Second, during the struggle that followed, that we can divide into the period before Gandhi, and the period after Gandhi (we might just as easily create sub-sections to signify Jinnah's entry, but we can do that in any case at a later stage), the Muslim professional was absent, very largely; surprisingly, the Muslim support for Congress was based on the religious conservative classes among Muslims. Deoband and the orthodox favoured Congress over the Muslim League. The Congress could point to dozens of leaders who had led, and who had been jailed, and who were known widely. Until Jinnah returned from self-imposed exile, there was no strong figure on the Muslim League side, except for some of the giants from Bengal, who were forming their reputation in those years. To some extent, the Aga Khan filled the vacuum to some extent.

So the Muslim grievance was of being left out of consideration by the British while all these stirring goings on were, as it were, going on. This was over and above the feeling of having been left behind in the race for power.

Then came the clarion call from a revived Muslim League, led by a person with genuine charisma. Just as Gandhi had mobilised the masses in general in support of the Congress, Jinnah formed a pole around which the specifically Muslim interest could crystallise. I rather like the account in this URL:

https://revisitingindia.com/2017/07/27/2-the-rise-the-fall-and-the-return-of-jinnah/

The third grievance was the whole concept and idea of partition. Ayesha Jalal has argued very persuasively that Jinnah had not entirely walked away from the Young Jinnah who had been the poster child of Hindu-Muslim unity while the leading young light of the Congress; the Jinnah who had architected the Lucknow Pact of 1916; and that his pushing for Pakistan was a stalking horse to cover his actual intention: to give Muslims an impregnable bastion of power within the new India, a bastion that could not be swamped by the Hindu ocean. But when Nehru and Patel finally signalled that they were happy to separate, rather than work with a recalcitrant and obstructive League, there was no alternative left.

I will finish this later this evening.



I am well aware of this, thank you very much for your input.

Irrelevant.

He was not alone. Read up first, please, and read the other Instruments of Accession and find out how many of the acceding states set out to form their own constitutions.



Sir, that did not mean that the administration was immediately taken over. Nor did it mean that the Patiala State forces came under Indian Army control. Please do spend a little extra time reading up on the role of the Patiala troops and the conversations between the Maharajas of Patiala and J&K.


Thank you for such an eloquent post which I read with interest.

Fascinating as it is the history of the two nations in how they find themselves in the situation they are in over Kashmir, and the resultant poisoning of all other aspects of the relationship, might I suggest that a discussion on ways to move forward to resolving the issue would be important, no matter how hopelessly deadlocked the issue might appear to be at the moment.

After all, we will never be able to go back into the past, but we can work in the present to make for a better future, if we are so inclined.
 
You are also, dear Sir, mistaken about the exclusion of India. The same arrangement was sought with India; India refused. That did not in any way give Pakistan exclusive rights over dealing with Kashmir, forget about permanent status, even in terms of commercial agreements.

You are contradicting yourself, sir
'Indian refusal', as you yourself have acknowledged, was the reason behind the exclusion of India

. This was a commercial arrangement.
.

No, Sir
The legally binding Standstill Agreement was not just "a Commercial Arrangement"
 
Going by the same logic, Pakistan cannot be held responsible for the tribal invasion and alleged military support by few officers who were acting 'independently' and the newly created State of Pakistan had no control over them !!

:D
Sir, there was not a single Indian Army officer in the Patiala State forces, voluntary or otherwise.

And Sir, do you know during the Security Council debates, many times Pakistani diplomats presented the same Argument while defending their position on Kashmir as what the Indian diplomats had argued while defending their actions in Junagadh? ...

You can't have it both ways, sir ....

Contiguity?

Thank you for such an eloquent post which I read with interest.

Fascinating as it is the history of the two nations in how they find themselves in the situation they are in over Kashmir, and the resultant poisoning of all other aspects of the relationship, might I suggest that a discussion on ways to move forward to resolving the issue would be important, no matter how hopelessly deadlocked the issue might appear to be at the moment.

After all, we will never be able to go back into the past, but we can work in the present to make for a better future, if we are so inclined.

I need to summarise the past, and the roots of the present discontent. Without that, it is, in my humble opinion, difficult to move forward.
 
I need to summarise the past, and the roots of the present discontent. Without that, it is, in my humble opinion, difficult to move forward.

Understood, and I am waiting for it. I was merely suggesting that once the foundation is laid down, we might consider concentrating on what is visible through the windscreen rather than the rear-view mirror. :D
 
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