As a Pakistani, do I have any rights to raise questions on establishment?

[Moonlight]

Before I begin, don’t judge my patriotism. Do NOT label me as an anti-army.
First thing, I do NOT have to prove my patriotism to anyone. But I still say it to make few things clear before coming to my questions. I have massive respect for our LEA, especially armed forces. And sheer purpose of this thread is the affection as well as the massive respect for our soldiers.

On borders and locations average Pakistani even haven’t ever heard of are being operated with given so many precious lives of young soldiers of this soil.
It takes time, money, and hardwork with hard training to make a solider. But it takes a moment for the enemies of the soil to take a life.....a life I believe is more important than an average Pakistani.

The death of Maj Ishaq is heartbreaking. Those pictures of his wife are gut-wrenching. We all will forget maj Ishaq until his first death anniversary. But the real burden & loss..... a loss that can NEVER be recovered is the loss of his 1 year old kid & the widow.
Martyrdom of maj Ishaq not only upset me & sadden me today but actually give the birth to anger in my heart. That made me question here.

So on one side we are giving in both the lives and money to secure the soil. But on the other, extremists group like “Thareek e Labbiak” has hijacked the capital city of Pakistan. What message is being delivered? I personally believe, the sacrifices of our shaheed jawans will go in drain.

We all know the exceptional power establishment enjoy in Pakistan. So what is making them stop taking some serious actions against these goons in Islamabad. Establishment’s intention maybe is crystal clear. But taking no step is indirectly supporting their cause.
It is hard for a sane mind to accept that one extremists group is given all the freedom to blockade the capital city without no support from agencies.

I don’t want to bring in Islam here because it will trigger some keyboards jihadists. I will hear a new Fatwa.
But I must state a little story from the life of Rasool Allah saw.

If we can questions politicians, why can’t we question establishment?
Isn’t Pakistan over everything? All the institutions?
Lastly, if establishment is all with “Pakistan first” & stay away from any sort of disturbance. Then I being a Pakistani request to high authorities to please take hard actions against Khadam Rizvi & co. for the betterment of Pakistan. For safe & secure Pakistan. For good economic of Pakistan. For Pakistan.

Thank you.


. Trolls stay away from this thread.
. Serious discussion only.
. “Let’s agree to disagree”
. Don’t derail the thread.

Have a great one all. Thank you.

 

[Moonlight]

@django @Zibago @Hell hound @Arsalan @The Diplomat @RealNapster @The Eagle @saiyan0321 @Sher Shah Awan

 

[truthseer]

Let's define what "Establishment" means here first.

 

[Babur The Uzbek Tiger]

It's good to hear your voice. You want to reform your country and that's a high form of citizenship. No one should be afraid to question or mock their public figures. The only one you should adhere to is the great Muhammad Ali Jinnah, because he was a rare faultless leader.

 

[Amaa'n]

Before I begin, don’t judge my patriotism. Do NOT label me as an anti-army.
First thing, I do NOT have to prove my patriotism to anyone. But I still say it to make few things clear before coming to my questions. I have massive respect for our LEA, especially armed forces. And sheer purpose of this thread is the affection as well as the massive respect for our soldiers.

On borders and locations average Pakistani even haven’t ever heard of are being operated with given so many precious lives of young soldiers of this soil.
It takes time, money, and hardwork with hard training to make a solider. But it takes a moment for the enemies of the soil to take a life.....a life I believe is more important than an average Pakistani.

The death of Maj Ishaq is heartbreaking. Those pictures of his wife are gut-wrenching. We all will forget maj Ishaq until his first death anniversary. But the real burden & loss..... a loss that can NEVER be recovered is the loss of his 1 year old kid & the widow.
Martyrdom of maj Ishaq not only upset me & sadden me today but actually give the birth to anger in my heart. That made me question here.

So on one side we are giving in both the lives and money to secure the soil. But on the other, extremists group like “Thareek e Labbiak” has hijacked the capital city of Pakistan. What message is being delivered? I personally believe, the sacrifices of our shaheed jawans will go in drain.

We all know the exceptional power establishment enjoy in Pakistan. So what is making them stop taking some serious actions against these goons in Islamabad. Establishment’s intention maybe is crystal clear. But taking no step is indirectly supporting their cause.
It is hard for a sane mind to accept that one extremists group is given all the freedom to blockade the capital city without no support from agencies.

I don’t want to bring in Islam here because it will trigger some keyboards jihadists. I will hear a new Fatwa.
But I must state a little story from the life of Rasool Allah saw.

If we can questions politicians, why can’t we question establishment?
Isn’t Pakistan over everything? All the institutions?
Lastly, if establishment is all with “Pakistan first” & stay away from any sort of disturbance. Then I being a Pakistani request to high authorities to please take hard actions against Khadam Rizvi & co. for the betterment of Pakistan. For safe & secure Pakistan. For good economic of Pakistan. For Pakistan.

Thank you.


. Trolls stay away from this thread.
. Serious discussion only.
. “Let’s agree to disagree”
. Don’t derail the thread.

Have a great one all. Thank you.

It is perceived that establishment cannot be questioned, but this is perceived incorrectly.......if questioning means taking it to the Social media & starting a rant without an ounce of evidence.....then you will be on the loosing side......
there are cases where the powerful "Institution" had to face the court hearings.......they were snubbed by the honorable judges......so it is important to follow due legal process to question the Establishment......

as far as Dharna is concerned then am sorry to say, there is nothing they can do.....they are trying to keep a positive image especially with the recent martyrdom of a Son of soil Major Ishaq......they do not like to get their hands dirty with the politics at this stage.....Ranger's use of authority outside court, Establishment involvement in merger of PSP / MQM - P & both parties going public with their name .......the cases that are already establishment is involved in - Lal Masjid (Mullah Burqa) ........the list is long

 

[Musafir117]

Before I begin, don’t judge my patriotism. Do NOT label me as an anti-army.
First thing, I do NOT have to prove my patriotism to anyone. But I still say it to make few things clear before coming to my questions. I have massive respect for our LEA, especially armed forces. And sheer purpose of this thread is the affection as well as the massive respect for our soldiers.

On borders and locations average Pakistani even haven’t ever heard of are being operated with given so many precious lives of young soldiers of this soil.
It takes time, money, and hardwork with hard training to make a solider. But it takes a moment for the enemies of the soil to take a life.....a life I believe is more important than an average Pakistani.

The death of Maj Ishaq is heartbreaking. Those pictures of his wife are gut-wrenching. We all will forget maj Ishaq until his first death anniversary. But the real burden & loss..... a loss that can NEVER be recovered is the loss of his 1 year old kid & the widow.
Martyrdom of maj Ishaq not only upset me & sadden me today but actually give the birth to anger in my heart. That made me question here.

So on one side we are giving in both the lives and money to secure the soil. But on the other, extremists group like “Thareek e Labbiak” has hijacked the capital city of Pakistan. What message is being delivered? I personally believe, the sacrifices of our shaheed jawans will go in drain.

We all know the exceptional power establishment enjoy in Pakistan. So what is making them stop taking some serious actions against these goons in Islamabad. Establishment’s intention maybe is crystal clear. But taking no step is indirectly supporting their cause.
It is hard for a sane mind to accept that one extremists group is given all the freedom to blockade the capital city without no support from agencies.

I don’t want to bring in Islam here because it will trigger some keyboards jihadists. I will hear a new Fatwa.
But I must state a little story from the life of Rasool Allah saw.

If we can questions politicians, why can’t we question establishment?
Isn’t Pakistan over everything? All the institutions?
Lastly, if establishment is all with “Pakistan first” & stay away from any sort of disturbance. Then I being a Pakistani request to high authorities to please take hard actions against Khadam Rizvi & co. for the betterment of Pakistan. For safe & secure Pakistan. For good economic of Pakistan. For Pakistan.

Thank you.


. Trolls stay away from this thread.
. Serious discussion only.
. “Let’s agree to disagree”
. Don’t derail the thread.

Have a great one all. Thank you.

When WE stop playing games the games in which suffer only AWAM and brave soldiers in front war, than things might be start change.
I am happy you start this discussion and you are not alone to have such feelings.

 

[RealNapster]

@django @Zibago @Hell hound @Arsalan @The Diplomat @RealNapster @The Eagle @saiyan0321 @Sher Shah Awan

Army to act upon govt decision on Islamabad sit-in: DG ISPR
November 23, 2017
|
By GEO NEWS

KARACHI: The Director General (DG) of Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor said on Wednesday the army would act upon whatever decision the government makes on the ongoing sit-in in Islamabad.

General Ghafoor, however, said it is better to diffuse the situation through mutual understanding, adding that whatever decision the government makes in this regard would be acted upon.

Routine life remained greatly disrupted as protesters, belonging to a religious group, continued their sit-in for the 17th consecutive day on Wednesday, blocking Faizabad Interchange despite a notice by the Supreme Court.

The protest has resulted in severe issues for residents of the 'twin cities', who face traffic jams and mobility issues on a daily basis. At least two casualties due to ambulances being unable to cross the protesters have also been reported.

The DG ISPR said it is the duty of the army for whatever task the government calls it.

"For the security of Pakistan, the civilian and military leadership are on the same page," he said.

Talks between the government and protesters on Saturday and then on Monday failed with no breakthrough in sight as protest leaders continue to demand the resignation of Federal Minister for Law and Justice Zahid Hamid.

The government, however, has formed another committee under senior cleric Pir Haseenuddin Shah for negotiations with the protesters and to suggest a comprehensive solution to the problem.

Earlier on Wednesday, at least four security personnel were injured when the protesters staging the sit-in resorted to pelting stones at security forces deployed in the area. SP Saddar Amir Niazi was also among the four injured Frontier Corps (FC) and police personnel.

Police and FC personnel deployed in the area have been put on alert and extra reinforcements, including armoured personnel carriers, have been summoned to the area and deployed at IJP road

https://www.geo.tv/latest/168958-army-to-act-upon-govt-decision-on-islamabad-sit-in-dg-ispr

________________________________________________________________________________

@django @Zibago @Hell hound @Arsalan @The Diplomat @RealNapster @The Eagle @saiyan0321 @Sher Shah Awan

You should know that Army is an institution which work under governments control (from last 10 years atleast). They have decided to act whatever and whenever asked by government which is good thing and should be appreciated. Nahe to phir Pakistan me he desi liberals kehty hy kay state is controlled and run by army.

 

[Sugarcane]

We all know the exceptional power establishment enjoy in Pakistan. So what is making them stop taking some serious actions against these goons in Islamabad.

There is difference between the soldiers fighting and sacrificing their lives for the country and military establishment, Establishment is not any different from political elite - like political elite, it also work more for own interests only.

 

[Arsalan]

@django @Zibago @Hell hound @Arsalan @The Diplomat @RealNapster @The Eagle @saiyan0321 @Sher Shah Awan

Thanks for the tag. Absolutely, you have every right to question them. I know you are aware of the difference of questioning someone’s decision to try to a) understand them, b) to change them AND taking it to the social media to ridicule and bash someone just for the sake of it. While the first if perfectly fine and in fact, required, second is a useless exercise with no good coming from it. I am sure that you are going for the first option here anyway so that is not a point in this particular case.


So again, yes you have every right to question such issues. The answer to them are pretty simple as well – they are under pressure by us, the public. We are the ones who were fooled in name of democracy and we are the ones who then stupidly defended our choices as well. The establishment – or shall I start calling it army was bashed and abused for meddling in the country’s politics (and rightly so) and they are doing all to rebuild that faith now. In past few years, we came across multiple such situation where our people were pleading for a martial law (and that too was a stupid choice) but army acted wisely to stay away. The dharna in Islamabad is something the interior ministry have to deal with. IT IS THEIR JOB not that of ARMY. Interior ministry have enough power, both political and physical (in shape of agencies and LEA under it) to resolve this matter. They are just waiting for the army to get involved in this mess so next time when they are on streets crying “mujay kuen nikala” they can add “inhain kuen nikala” to it as well. Pathetic scumbags these politicians and the stupid lot who elected them to rule. While army gets a stick for not acting in this case, the criticism is of much lesser extent to what it would be if they do interfere (and not just criticism – the down side of any such intervention will also be much worse than what it is now with them not getting involved).


So in short, what we see today is a mix of choice we made, the route we chose to take and a cautious approach by the establishment.


Form a personal point of view, I think they are doing it right. No need to get involved in this. What is the government and its ministries for? Just to loot the nation and sell the country? THIS IS THEIR JOB, better get on with it. People, the nation should realize who is responsible for this situation and who is being inefficient for not dealing with it properly and it is not the army for sure. Army/establishment SHOULD be held responsible for it if they chose NOT TO ACT on whatever decision government takes on this. HOWEVER IT IS THE GOVERNMENT WHO NEEDS TO TAKE A DECISION. They better man up and do it.

 

[Moonlight]

It is perceived that establishment cannot be questioned, but this is perceived incorrectly.......if questioning means taking it to the Social media & starting a rant without an ounce of evidence.....then you will be on the loosing side......
there are cases where the powerful "Institution" had to face the court hearings.......they were snubbed by the honorable judges......so it is important to follow due legal process to question the Establishment......

as far as Dharna is concerned then am sorry to say, there is nothing they can do.....they are trying to keep a positive image especially with the recent martyrdom of a Son of soil Major Ishaq......they do not like to get their hands dirty with the politics at this stage.....Ranger's use of authority outside court, Establishment involvement in merger of PSP / MQM - P & both parties going public with their name .......the cases that are already establishment is involved in - Lal Masjid (Mullah Burqa) ........the list is long

Respected sir, hold on, you know the difference between “ranting” & “questioning”. I’m sorry to say from your post it seems the answer is No.

Underline part:

If two parties in Karachi can be called to unite for the “betterment” of Karachi. Why no discussion with government & TeL for “betterment” of Pakistan?

 

[newb3e]

No sir you cant criticise the biggest conglomerate in Pakistan whoes supposed job is to protect Pakistan against internal and external threats but in reality its a real estate company who is busy building dhas and to protect its assets it created partners like mqm, nawaz shareef, ppp and pti to create a perception that politicians are evil and this land developer can protect you!

Soldiers die protecting assets of fauji foundation and not Pakistan! General dont die soldiers do! Awaam is treated like cockroach by these generals and their minions the politicians! No sir awaam has no right...work hard pay taxes so you can see more dhas!!

Ps: i love Pakistan and i am patriotic!

https://qz.com/1134516/inside-pakistans-biggest-business-conglomerate-the-pakistani-military/

 

[Moonlight]

Thanks for the tag. Absolutely, you have every right to question them. I know you are aware of the difference of questioning someone’s decision to try to a) understand them, b) to change them AND taking it to the social media to ridicule and bash someone just for the sake of it. While the first if perfectly fine and in fact, required, second is a useless exercise with no good coming from it. I am sure that you are going for the first option here anyway so that is not a point in this particular case.


So again, yes you have every right to question such issues. The answer to them are pretty simple as well – they are under pressure by us, the public. We are the ones who were fooled in name of democracy and we are the ones who then stupidly defended our choices as well. The establishment – or shall I start calling it army was bashed and abused for meddling in the country’s politics (and rightly so) and they are doing all to rebuild that faith now. In past few years, we came across multiple such situation where our people were pleading for a martial law (and that too was a stupid choice) but army acted wisely to stay away. The dharna in Islamabad is something the interior ministry have to deal with. IT IS THEIR JOB not that of ARMY. Interior ministry have enough power, both political and physical (in shape of agencies and LEA under it) to resolve this matter. They are just waiting for the army to get involved in this mess so next time when they are on streets crying “mujay kuen nikala” they can add “inhain kuen nikala” to it as well. Pathetic scumbags these politicians and the stupid lot who elected them to rule. While army gets a stick for not acting in this case, the criticism is of much lesser extent to what it would be if they do interfere (and not just criticism – the down side of any such intervention will also be much worse than what it is now with them not getting involved).


So in short, what we see today is a mix of choice we made, the route we chose to take and a cautious approach by the establishment.


Form a personal point of view, I think they are doing it right. No need to get involved in this. What is the government and its ministries for? Just to loot the nation and sell the country? THIS IS THEIR JOB, better get on with it. People, the nation should realize who is responsible for this situation and who is being inefficient for not dealing with it properly and it is not the army for sure. Army/establishment SHOULD be held responsible for it if they chose NOT TO ACT on whatever decision government takes on this. HOWEVER IT IS THE GOVERNMENT WHO NEEDS TO TAKE A DECISION. They better man up and do it.

Stepping in wrong time with wrong decision would make the public wonder and question. But right now in this particular case, I personally think everyone is looking at establishment to sort things out. It’s a capital city being hijacked.

And purpose of the thread is having healthy discussion and no bashing of one institution .

 

[Arsalan]

Soldiers die protecting assets of fauji foundation and not Pakistan! General dont die soldiers do! Awaam is treated like cockroach by these generals and their minions the politicians! No sir awaam has no right...work hard pay taxes so you can see more dhas!!/

Generals are not BORN generals, they are made one! They go through the same route as Maj Ishaq was going through, as that kid lieutenant Arsalan was going through. They died, he becomes a hero. If he had survived and went on to become a general then he would have been a bigot too?

At least understand the mechanism before making such comments.

 

[Moonlight]

You should know that Army is an institution which work under governments control (from last 10 years atleast). They have decided to act whatever and whenever asked by government which is good thing and should be appreciated. Nahe to phir Pakistan me he desi liberals kehty hy kay state is controlled and run by army.

Still takes many decision independently I’m sure for the good of the soil and citizens
Why can’t now?

 

[Arsalan]

And purpose of the thread is having healthy discussion and no bashing of one institution .

I know that your intentions are not bad. That is why i made that clear in the first post That message was for other people and so was the one from @balixd

Stepping in wrong time with wrong decision would make the public wonder and question. But right now in this particular case, I personally think everyone is looking at establishment to sort things out. It’s a capital city being hijacked.

That is what i am saying, this is what WE the people should be trying to make our people understand. THE PEOPLE, the "everyone" is looking at the wrong institution. It is NOT army's job. The problem here is that we chose to vote for Nawaz and Zardari and then in such situation we look at the army to make. We should be looking at the parliament, the politicians, the interior ministry, IB, the police and other LEA under gov. to make a decision and act on it. IF things go out of control and an order is issued to the army, then that is where they should get involved and that is where we should be looking at them to do the right thing. Once it is done, no one will remember the reasons, all the media and our "asma jhangir's" will narrate is who army stomped in Islamabad. Is this current situation worst than the plane of your army chief being directed to head to INDIA? I dont think so. Do we remember? We know we dont!

It is simple, people must realize and understand what thing is job of what institute. Just like army should not be talking about economy matters as Ahsan Iqbal recently said, this particular even is purely gov.s job to take care of.