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Arundhati Roy calls for end to Indian ‘occupation’ of Kashmir

International community.

When do we people heed to the concerns of the international community. Is it not the interests of our nations that take primacy ? (this is a trick question ;))

See below.

Wrong.

You have put the cart before the horse. What is needed to be examined is if 'peoples' (note the 's') have the right to declare secession from a State, and under what circumstances. This is to be viewed along with the State's right of territorial integrity. And it is in this context I had asked the question, if Kashmir's accession to India was illegitimate i.e. in violation of any extant law.

If the territorial integration of Kashmir is good in law, then India has de jure sovereignty over Kashmir. That means, India's right to territorial integrity is good in law as well. Sending an army to such a territory, ostensibly in rebellion, is not an act of 'occupation' but is an exercise of State's right (e.g. PA in Balochistan).

This leads us to examine if Kashmiris have the right to self-determination. UN Millennium resolution clearly identifies right to self determination under two conditions - 'colonial domination' and 'foreign occupation'. Kashmir fulfills none of the conditions.

Q.E.D

That's fundamentally flawed.

The international community considers Kashmir is being under Indian administration; i.e. it does not 'belong' to India. India currently controls a territory whose status is under dispute.

From the UN map you posted states

The final status of Jammu and Kashmir has not been agreed upon by the parties.

The boundaries and names shown on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations.


In plain English, it means the area is 'on loan' to India to be administered until its status is resolved to the satisfaction of the international community.

Actually, before 1989 their demand had very little currency in Kashmir. It started only with a little 'help' from their good friends.

Sure. They were all asleep until Pakistan came and woke them up. Pakistan manufactured the 66% secession support out of the blue.

PS. Gotta go. Talk later.
 
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It doesn't matter if they were cat worshippers. The point is that they opposed US control of PR and did so with military force.

And they did not achieve their goal. Neither are the pak backed Kashmiri groups going to.


No shift. I was pointing out the difference in the way these countries approached the problem. It was in the context of your reference to armed resistance.

Again there were armed insurgencies in US,UK,Spain,Lanka etc and they went the way India has gone. I dont know what is so hard to understand here.


Also, I notice you consistently put US in there, as if the 200 year old civil war has any relevance today. Try using the more contemporary example of Puerto Rico to see how a true democracy handles it.

200 years ? Your maths suck big time.

Anyway it is not a question of when..it is a question of "did they" and they did. BTW I gave you the most recent example, a late as 2008, Lanka.


As for Britain and Spain, it just shows they hadn't lost their colonial mindset even towards their own people. Ironic that India should use ex-colonists as a role model instead of more progressive examples like the US and Canada.

LOL Rationalizations.
We chose what we chose. Not what others want us to chose. Got it sonny ?

Either way, that's the democractic approach.

Good for them.


We are not the world's policeman; we can only help people who explicitly ask our help.

But I understand India was more than willing to help the Sri Lankan Tamils by creating/funding/training the LTTE. That is, until they went crazy and started causing trouble within India itself.

As I said you are more than welcome to help them..if only it doesn't sink your country deeper into chaos..


You are just repeating yourself, so this is not going anywhere.

Exactly.

We can never see face to face on anything. So stop complaining on an online fora and do something to help the Kashmiris..Clearly you are not doing enough..


Already debunked. You don't need 500K troops to catch stragglers across the border.

I never knew you were a real Army general who knew the intricacies of manpower need. You ought to be on the border fighting those Talibs..

The link I already posted showed how the army is systematically engaged in brutalizing the civilians population and gets rewarded monetarily and senioritywise for 'kills'. Even when the 'kills' are innocent civilians falsely accused of terrorism.

It did not show anything except to what extent you people can be brainwashed. If the people start an armed insurgency to win freedom there is no point cribbing about loss of life. We will do everything in our means to crush it.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

The Army hasn't been sent to Balochistan, the Frontier Corp is. Big difference. The Frontier Corp falls under the jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry, not the Pakistan military/armed forces. It's similar to the CRPFs in your Naxal areas.

So is the case here sonny.

So does the Rashtriya Rifles.

BTW I also said the Army was sent there in 1948 itself to annex Balochistan, capture its leader, take him to karachi where he was forced to accede to Pakistan and be ever there to crush the five wars of independence..the last one which is still goin on.
 
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The RR's are only part of the forces in Kashmir.

India also has the Northern Command XIV, XV & XVI corps.

And they are on the border on the LoC not in civvie areas.

Dont tell me now that the Iranian border is policed by the FC..:lol:
 
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Let me quote from “Shadow War” written by Arif Jamal [Page 172], a visiting fellow at NYU. He is a Pakistani journalist and so I believe that this will not be dismissed as Indian/Hindu/Kashmiri Pandit propaganda.

Another significant early act was the murder of Keshav Nath Pandit, who was the first Hindu killed in the violence inaugurated after July 1988. A follower of the Jamat-i-Islami of Indian-controlled Jammu and Kashmir, Constable Mohammed Yousuf, was on duty guarding a temple in Vicharnag. After a dispute, he dragged Mahant Keshav Nath Pandit out of the temple on the morning of December 9, 1988 and asked him to convert to Islam. When he refused, Yousuf kileld him by beating him with the butt of his gun.

Very righteous struggle indeed!
 
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The RR's are only part of the forces in Kashmir.

India also has the Northern Command XIV, XV & XVI corps there.

mostly paramilitary forces conducts operations inside territory..army is not for fighting inside
 
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And they are on the border on the LoC not in civvie areas.

Dont tell me now that the Iranian border is policed by the FC..:lol:

My point was making the distinction b/w the Kashmir & Balochistan situation which your fellow countryman failed to understand.
 
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Anyway Indian Army is there so that Pakistan Army doesn't do a misadventure yet again just as they did in 1948 and 65.
 
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My point was making the distinction b/w the Kashmir & Balochistan situation which your fellow countryman failed to understand.

Would you please scribe your point in short and coherent paragraph. So far you kept ranting about who falls under what jurisdiction, ignoring that it doesn't matter as long as you keep killing people and crushing indigenous struggle by brute force.

Now when I pointed out India also have deployed what you call Paramilitary forces in Kashmir under Home ministries jurisdiction, you pretend as if your point has already been made!
 
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Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan

By Aleem Maqbool
BBC News, Muzaffarabad


"There are different types of duties I can now be sent to do," says the man we have come to meet, but whose identity we have to conceal.

"I can be kept here in the reserves, be asked to recruit new members, or they can send me across into Indian-held Kashmir for jihad," he says.

Until the spring, this 25-year-old had been studying engineering; now he is a militant.

As he describes why he left his studies, he quotes from the Koran and repeats justifications for his choice, which have clearly been taught to him.

"While I was at university, I started going to sermons given by preachers and, thank God, I joined a jihadi group," he says.

"I went to a training camp with hundreds of others for three months. Now I'm ready to do whatever they ask me, to win all of Kashmir for Pakistan.

"The Indians are killing our brothers and sisters. If everyone sits around doing nothing, who will bring liberation?

"God willing, our blood will bring change," the young man adds.

He tells me his family are happy about his choice, and that they will be proud if he becomes a martyr and goes to heaven.

But that turns out not to be the case. After much persuasion, he allows us to meet his mother.

'Brainwashed'

"Only over my dead body will my son go for jihad," she says.

She tells us that she thought her son was going for Koranic teaching but that she was horrified to find that he had, in fact, had militant training.

"I pray to God to keep him here and not let him go. I won't let him," she adds.

And the man's brother, we find, is furious.

"He is a different person since he went to the training camp; the way he talks and dresses. They have brainwashed him.

"If Pakistan wants to fight India, why doesn't it do it through its army, why does it have to use boys like my brother?" he says.

The implication being that it is the Pakistani state that is behind the radicalisation and preparation of his brother as a militant.

In 1947, India was partitioned. Muslim-majority Indian states formed the new nation of Pakistan. But in the hastiness of the split, the fate of Kashmir, whose population was more than three-quarters Muslim, was never fully resolved.

In the late 1940s, the United Nations had demanded that India allow a vote in Kashmir so people there could decide upon their future. India said it agreed, but the poll was never held.

The territory is now split between the two regional powers. They have fought wars for its overall control, but in the last 20 years, an insurgency has also taken root.

There was a time when it was an open secret that the Pakistani authorities were directly supporting militancy in Kashmir.

But now Pakistan claims those days are over.

"I assure you, as a state, as a government, there is no such policy of training Kashmiri militants to be sent across [to Indian-administered Kashmir]," Pakistan's Interior Minister, Rehman Malik, tells me.

He says that because of the monitoring of his government, militant groups have been brought under control, that they are no longer a threat to India, and that fighters cannot cross into the Indian-run side of Kashmir.

When I tell him about the militant we had met, and the organised training camp he had talked of, Mr Malik admitted there might be "some non-state groups" still operating.

'Supporting militancy'

But most people living in Pakistani-administered Kashmir will say the government is not telling the full story.

"The intelligence agencies in Pakistan are still fully supporting and financing militant groups here and the government is completely aware," says Zahid Habib Sheikh, from the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF).

"They will tell you there are no training camps but, of course, there are. This has always been Pakistan's Kashmir strategy, but it is a selfish policy that has only damaged our cause," he adds.

Mr Sheikh says he feels Pakistan is supporting militancy here not for the sake of Kashmiris, but to keep India engaged in conflict, and to use the militants as a bargaining chip in negotiations.

"Pakistan has also turned what should be a nationalist cause, about human rights abuses by India, into a religious cause," he says.

The organisation he belongs to re-launched its "Quit Kashmir" campaign earlier this year. It calls for both India and Pakistan to end their involvement in the region.

In what is traditionally protest season in Pakistani-administered Kashmir, where all political groups hold rallies, the march by JKLF was one of the biggest in Muzaffarabad, blocking the centre of the city.

People across Pakistani-administered Kashmir are united in their anger over the recent deaths of over a hundred Kashmiris in the Indian-administered side, killed while protesting against Indian control.

Just as we are leaving Muzaffarabad, after the "Quit Kashmir" rally, we hear crowd noise coming from a marketplace.

There, in the middle of the day, stands a bearded man on a platform, surrounded by armed men in military-type fatigues.

Scores of people have gathered to listen to what he has to say, and respond to his slogans by chanting them back.

He is a senior militant leader, openly urging new recruits to step forward. Undoubtedly more of them will.

UPDATE: Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a statement after this article's publication saying "When his attention was drawn to a recent BBC report alleging existence of terrorist training camps in AJK [Azad Jammu and Kashmir], the [ministry] spokesman termed the report as baseless and malicious."

BBC News - Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan
 
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Would you please scribe your point in short and coherent paragraph. So far you kept ranting about who falls under what jurisdiction, ignoring that it doesn't matter as long as you keep killing people and crushing indigenous struggle by brute force.

Now when I pointed out India also have deployed what you call Paramilitary forces in Kashmir under Home ministries jurisdiction, you pretend as if your point has already been made!

Welcome to debating world of billo bhaiyya..
 
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LOL..Pakistan;s modus operandi on Kashmir is a lesson on how NOT to do things when you are going to stake claim on a territory.

when staking claim on Kashmir on the basis of population they for some reason accepted the accession of Hyderabad an Junagadh in which > 90% were Hindus. Mistake #1.

If decided to attack they should have attacked with full force and not sent in a raiding party..this gave the Majaraja time to ponder and accede to India..Mistake # 2.

Should not have trusted the Kashmiri Muslims fully with their plans..usually leads to disaster as in 1965 war....and should not have thought lightly of the enemy due to some theory of 1 Pak = 10 Hidus...Mistake # 3

Should not have unilaterally initiated operations on Western front knowing fully well they are going to be defeated..Mistake # 4

While trying to capture Siachen should not have ordered arctic gear with the firm that supplies the Indian Army..Mistake # 5

The thought that since russia could be defeated by jihad...so can be India...mistake # 6

I can go on...but this will give countries with future plans to claim territories on what not to do while doing so..:lol:

Mistake#5 is interesting.

What happened?
 
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Kashmiri militant groups still recruiting in Pakistan

That is fine. If they stop, our forces will become rusty and out-of-practice. If only our troops could have more effective protective gear, I'd say bring it on more happily.
 
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Some interesting mental gymnastics by the think tanks here.

One day the USA is all bad, the US people are sheeple, their democracy a sham, the 9/11 staged by the US establishment to keep the sheeple in check and to stop the progress of the goody goody two shoes China unkil.

On this thread, it becomes a "perfect democracy"!

After trying illegal terror and wars, causing ethnic cleansing by Islamic goons in Kashmir (as they had earlier done in Pakistan itself), they now want us to give up Kashmir due to our democracy! ;)

Not happening. Just come to terms with the reality.

Kashmir nahi banega Pakistan.

Not by terror, not by wars, not by pathetic logic of democracy and not due to Indian business interests (Yes some people even imagine this!).
 
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