Army wants to become part of CPEC administration

[WAJsal]

Sir, for the second time, you fail to explain what is it that you find insulting in my posts that you quote. You have you opinion and I have mine. My views, as stated above, have plenty to support them.

First line of my post:

I found your definition of Pakistan very insulting.

Let me try to put it in simpler words...
"A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
reply:
"The very definition of Pakistan."

So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project.

Your post suggested what exactly? quite clear you meant to say 'Pakistan was a project of the Army', also add 'administrated by the army' too. Or please prove me wrong. What exactly did you post mean?
Heading towards a dead end. It's best to accept one's mistakes at times.

It also means that the civilian government has been handicapped by using tactics.

You have the support of the majority, you are in power. This things only reflect the incompetence of civilian governments. If factions within the army is involved in such activity, what action has the federal government taken against them? or can it even take any action against them? By using the parliament the government can easily bring the army under it's rule.
PS: one can even try and be Amir al-Mu'minin if he is in power.
The government has the support of the majority, only reason why it will never look to stand up to the establishment is because it wishes to complete it's tenure. It doesn't give a crap about democracy, or the system to be more exact.

If you are not going to let democracy run, how can you evolve with time ?

So Pakistan is not under Democratic rule? if there are forces working to derail the system what measures have the government taken against these forces? How are they not letting democracy run? Whose responsibility is it to run democracy? Just need to ask yourself, no need to answer these questions.
All in all establishment working against you only reflects the incompetence of federal government. A powerful government would never let the Army dictate anything.

In two successive democratic transitions, if you can't see the difference in governance between PPP and PML-N, there is seriously something wrong with you, maybe its just your personal ego.

What is democratic about PPP and PMLN? I would like to use the term 'civilian dictators' here. I can't wait for Princess Maryam to take over her father. Master Bilawal has already done that. Pardon me please, i love these moments.

A weak government results because of hostile, immature opposition.

That only highlights the incompetence of the federal government. A strong government will always keep it's opposition in check, if it can't it simply shows the governments incompetence. Lets take current situation for example, how hard is to listen to the opposition? why can't the opposition be consulted regarding the TOR's of the commission. Or even when the Panama Papers were leaked out, the government gave the opportunity to the opposition.

No democracy can work until ISI's political cell is demolished for good. There is always a reason for General Pasha's name to come up and a guy like TUQ coming of out the blue and spending millions in his useless campaign is no secret.

Thank you for further highlighting the incompetence of civilian government. Pray do tell whose job is it exactly to demolish this political wing? Whose job is it to keep the army in check? Current government doesn't care and will continue to be dictated looking to finish it's tenure.

Pakistanis always have something to say. If you get dictated, you are a looser. But if you don't let anyone dictate you, you become a dictator and undemocratic : )

And if i listen to your opinion and you listen to mine and we continue to have a sane argument, like all arguments it will reach to it's end...it's pretty democratic.
The problem with Nawaz is that he is too scared to make a stand, lets face it.

 

[SBD-3]

You have the support of the majority, you are in power. This things only reflect the incompetence of civilian governments. If factions within the army is involved in such activity, what action has the federal government taken against them? or can it even take any action against them? By using the parliament the government can easily bring the army under it's rule.
PS: one can even try and be Amir al-Mu'minin if he is in power.
The government has the support of the majority, only reason why it will never look to stand up to the establishment is because it wishes to complete it's tenure. It doesn't give a crap about democracy, or the system to be more exact.

who are you trying to fool here? The ones who had the gun have always been all over those who had the majority. This is the case from 1948 to date starting from the men with gun denying Quaid's orders to attack Kashmir.

 

[Edevelop]

So Pakistan is not under Democratic rule? if there are forces working to derail the system what measures have the government taken against these forces? How are they not letting democracy run? Whose responsibility is it to run democracy? Just need to ask yourself, no need to answer these questions.
All in all establishment working against you only reflects the incompetence of federal government. A powerful government would never let the Army dictate anything.

When you have politicians like Sheikh Rasheed, Imran Khan, Chaudharies, and Altaf Hussain who sat in the laps of Musharraf and today coming on media spreading lies and waging cold wars, who needs to control military when they fit perfectly part of their agenda ?

Maybe you forgot the day when TUQ and Imran attacked PTV, gates of Parliament, and disturbed the lives of people of twin cities. Why do these politicians need democracy when the military was just standing by them not following the orders of government ?

What is democratic about PPP and PMLN? I would like to use the term 'civilian dictators' here. I can't wait for Princess Maryam to take over her father. Master Bilawal has already done that. Pardon me please, i love these moments.

'Civilian dictators' elected by people of Pakistan... Anything else ?

That only highlights the incompetence of the federal government. A strong government will always keep it's opposition in check, if it can't it simply shows the governments incompetence. Lets take current situation for example, how hard is to listen to the opposition? why can't the opposition be consulted regarding the TOR's of the commission. Or even when the Panama Papers were leaked out, the government gave the opportunity to the opposition.

Listen to opposition who don't show up in assembly sessions ?

How about not backtracking Judical commission's verdicts agreed and signed by opposition ?

Current government doesn't care and will continue to be dictated looking to finish it's tenure.

Why not finish their tenure ? Its their right to complete 5 years and they have done a fabulous job improving economy and practically spending on development. Some people shouldn't be scared of next elections.

 

[VCheng]

Let me try to put it in simpler words...
"A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
reply:
"The very definition of Pakistan."

So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project.

Your post suggested what exactly? quite clear you meant to say 'Pakistan was a project of the Army', also add 'administrated by the army' too. Or please prove me wrong. What exactly did you post mean?
Heading towards a dead end. It's best to accept one's mistakes at times.

Sir, it is quite clear who controls Pakistan. I have said nothing that is too far from that reality. There is nothing wrong or insulting in recognizing the state of affairs in Paksitan as it exists. What the founding fathers created died in 1971. What remains is run by the Army, for the Army. This will be my last post on this aspect. Peace!

 

[That Guy]

Did it ? Back in 2007, the period when Musharraf got booted out and Judiciary's movement was at it's peek, the 2008 federal elections was considered purely democratic and while most people including myself would agree the PPP government was truly corrupt and incompetent during its term, the momentum for the most part was on their side.

Not really, at that point, Musharraf was deeply unpopular within the military as well. As many within the military accused him of ruining the organization's image.

Kiyani and rest of the military had absolutely no control over any foreign policy and to prove my point, the military which has a history of siding with Saudis, couldn't do much to stop Zardari from siding with Iran and writing letters to Americans.

Keyani deliberately stayed out of politics to rebuild the army's image, but that doesn't mean the army didn't have control over foreign policy. Writing a few letters and standing with Iran doesn't mean that Zardari was in control of foreign policy, it just means that he tried to wrest it out of military hands, and failed.

The fact that no one took Zardari's efforts at foreign policy serious is evidence of that. While Zardari was talking with Iran, Keyani was in KSA reassuring them of Pakistan's commitments.

While Keyani stayed out of politics, he did not let this one thing out of the army's control.

There are differences between security perimeters and complexity of Baluchistan and other provinces so I'm not surprised why Chinese would approach Raheel.

Not just that, but Raheel is still absolutely in control of the security establishment, why would the Chinese ever go to the government? The Chinese went to NS only as a formality, but let's be honest, the Chinese knew who was really in control.

Yes its true there was some plans back in 2006, but lets be honest that CPEC had just 1 motorway Line, 1 railway Line, and development of Gwadar Port.

Just to clarify, back then, it was known as the Gwadar mega port city project. CPEC actually came as a surprise to many Pakistanis, even the government, as no one was actually expecting the $46 billion figure. From what I've read, NS was expecting at most $10 billion over 5 years, not $46 billion in about 4.

The CPEC under Nawaz has 4 motorway Lines, 4 railway Lines, energy projects of coal, wind, gas, solar, and hydel, and industrial zones across all provinces and territories.

On the other hand, Nawaz did make one major mistake: he didn't start with the western route first. Thankfully, that mistake has been rectified, and final approval has been given for it. Having said that, the fact that he started with the much less vital eastern route smells of political interference, and corruption, even you can't deny that.

And its not like this is the only thing that has happened. A gas deal has been reached with Turkmenistan, Qatar, and Russia, and electricity deal with Tajikistan and Iran. Another regional connectivity by the name CAREC, Central Asia Regional Economic Cooperation was launched during Nawaz's government back in 1997 and its once again he is credited for implementation.

On the other hand, the gas deal that was initially signed with Qatar was extremely bad, and was only renegotiated, when Nawaz was pressured by the opposition to drop the original deal.

Not to mention that Nawaz is still hesitant to implement the IP pipeline, which would dramatically help Pakistan's energy security for decades to come.

I said this in the past context and my point is it did happen at some point. I don't agree its the most popular channel but it is debatable.

Fair enough.

The government is far from perfect but again some blame also lies with the military as we all know they have been playing the good and bad cop games. They are just lucky they got a guy like Raheel firm in his policy to change their institution's perception.

I actually agree with this, but I would actually be far harsher and say a good amount of the fault is with the military, not just a little bit.

You can't compare Turkey with Pakistan. Maybe you are not aware, the political dynamics are totally different. There it was Secular vs Islam with rich and military being Secular and poor being Muslim. In Pakistan, the political parties, military, and the people have no identity and that said you can't use any motive.

The principle is the same, so the comparison stands. The political balance in Turkey was similar to Pakistan, where the military had massive influence, while the civilian government and judiciary was almost completely subservient.

Exactly my point. But he seems not to accept the incompetence of civilian government in this regard. One can't blame the army for anything(it's basically a culture here). What exactly has civilian government done to strengthen democracy or the say the system? I would blame the civilian government more here.

I would argue that the army also shares quite a bit of the blame, as "ambitious" generals have always interfered in the democratic process far too many times.

 

[SBD-3]

On the other hand, Nawaz did make one major mistake: he didn't start with the western route first. Thankfully, that mistake has been rectified, and final approval has been given for it. Having said that, the fact that he started with the much less vital eastern route smells of political interference, and corruption, even you can't deny that.

Eastern route is less vital? Seriously? Can you please tell me the location of major Chinese investments? Can you tell me the location of current available infrastructure which can handle mass transit? I just don't understand how people make such sweeping statements. On western route, you need everything to build from scratch, no industrial base, no industrial labor. Have you ever wondered why Chinese invested even in Sindh and not the KPK? economically eastern route was the route which could be activated in minimal time with minimal spending. Western route would take at least 4-5 years at least to operationalize because there's no high grade highways that can carry the continuous load of heavy traffic. Like the D I khan motorway which is now approved. It has started, but its a long haul.

 

[That Guy]

Eastern route is less vital? Seriously? Can you please tell me the location of major Chinese investments?

Considering that there is more poverty in the western route, it would create far more tens of thousands of jobs, thus the western route is far more vital. Perhaps I should have clarified, I meant this in local level investment, not the trade route itself. Creating jobs in far more impoverished areas is a better idea than creating them in Punjab, especially since the insurgency is mainly in the west of the country. You find and give jobs to people, they'll be less likely to join or help the insurgency.

Can you tell me the location of current available infrastructure which can handle mass transit? I just don't understand how people make such sweeping statements. On western route, you need everything to build from scratch, no industrial base, no industrial labor. Have you ever wondered why Chinese invested even in Sindh and not the KPK? economically eastern route was the route which could be activated in minimal time with minimal spending. Western route would take at least 4-5 years at least to operationalize because there's no high grade highways that can carry the continuous load of heavy traffic. Like the D I khan motorway which is now approved. It has started, but its a long haul.

Except for the fact that the eastern route has taken about 94% of the funding, not due to Chinese preference, but due to NS playing politics.

Funny thing is, this comment only proves me right.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Transparency is used as an excuse and even if there is, its certainly not the job of military. It was a strong government until Imran Khan and TUQ, the guy who comes every now and then came out of the blue, started crying about rigging for 126 days and later did we know that came out as a waste. It was during that time, the military came right back and took control of foreign policy and national security as its first and second steps.

CPEC is the last thing you want to give away. This is a government project and planning and negotiations were done for almost 2 years and countless seminars and APCs were done to convince opposition. When the time came for its implementation, they all started playing their dirty politics, crying on its route and threatening ethnic clashes. That said, the military has once again found an opportunity to capitalize on this.

Lets not forget, the military has ruled for over 60 years without ballot and blessings of people, yet I'm amused, the lust for power and all the poor policies and corruption are not so often pointed by our so called free media. The few that did, i.e. geo, got closed down as a punishment.

Someone here gave an example of Erdogan and his success to force military to back away. Well let me tell you, the Sharifs have pretty good relations with him and there is no doubt in my mind he may have given them some valuable advice.

They have done the right things like pushing economy ahead and winning hearts with lower earning class just like that but when you have a b!tch opposition with lots of lota politicians who know all the ins and outs with the amount of time they have served in so many parties and, a military who has a mysterious identity, neither secular nor islamic, its very unlike Turkey

There is no alternative to a strong elected government under a charismatic leader. Turkish people learnt it after paying heavy prices to the rules by the tutelage (Secular elites, Army etc.). Military shouldn't conduct a coup for it costs the national defense most as the discipline and fighting capability get decimated. There's no harm in relegating some duties like COIN to the Army. If the Paks think General Sharif will be a competent national leader then they should encourage him to get into politics after retirement and run for the highest office.

 

[Zaneesh852]

Considering that there is more poverty in the western route, it would create far more tens of thousands of jobs, thus the western route is far more vital. Perhaps I should have clarified, I meant this in local level investment, not the trade route itself. Creating jobs in far more impoverished areas is a better idea than creating them in Punjab, especially since the insurgency is mainly in the west of the country. You find and give jobs to people, they'll be less likely to join or help the insurgency.

I think the biggest problem on western route is the unforgivingly bad business environment. Just yesterday, the extortionists in Charsaddah blew two marble factories for not paying extortion money.
http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_PEW/20160425/Sub_Images/1103478142-1.gif

With rampant extortion, no supply of skilled labor you won't be able to reap anything out of western route. I am yet to see concerted efforts from KPK administration to prepare themselves to benefit from potential investment. From eliminating extortionist mafia,developing road infrastructure which would connect all of KPK to the proposed route to expediting vocational training.

 

[WAJsal]

who are you trying to fool here? The ones who had the gun have always been all over those who had the majority. This is the case from 1948 to date starting from the men with gun denying Quaid's orders to attack Kashmir.

Who are you trying to fool here? Who is in power? who is taking dictations? Stop complaining about the problem, look to solve it.
We have never had a strong civilian government who could challenge the establishment, they will sacrifice what needs to be done to stay in power. Just like Nawaz Sharif will let the army dictate foreign policy and important issues. Ideally he should not take any dictation and take all actions himself. And if the army is unhappy and we see another coup, this time the majority will be behind the civilian government. Why doesn't the civilian government do something about Armies superiority? Easy to answer: it's because they don't give a shit about improving or strengthening the system.

When you have politicians like Sheikh Rasheed, Imran Khan, Chaudharies, and Altaf Hussain who sat in the laps of Musharraf and today coming on media spreading lies and waging cold wars, who needs to control military when they fit perfectly part of their agenda ?

The opposition can never be blamed in this case. NS himself has taken help from Establishment before. My point is what is he doing to curb Armies power? lol, he is not doing anything.
PS: NS was a product of his Siyasi Father Zia-ul-haq.

Why do these politicians need democracy when the military was just standing by them not following the orders of government ?

And did the government take any action agaisnt these people or the army for not listening to it? Why are you complaing for? You are in power.

'Civilian dictators' elected by people of Pakistan... Anything else ?

You missed my point. What exactly is democratic about these people that you expect them to run a democracy.
PS: even the dictators did a referendum, and an election from time to time. They liked to call themselves elected too. Anything else?

Listen to opposition who don't show up in assembly sessions ?

I bet IK has been to the assembly more than Nawaz Shairf has been to it. I bet NS has been to London for medical check-ups more than he has been to the assembly. Government doesn't give any significance to the assembly. And in this case government should listen to the opposition. And you complain why there is a political instability. The government creates this instability.

Why not finish their tenure ? Its their right to complete 5 years and they have done a fabulous job improving economy and practically spending on development. Some people shouldn't be scared of next elections.

Do you know the meaning of 'Fabulous'? no need to be blinded in love. Do you want me to get an experts opinion here? come on, stop being so blinded in love.

Back too the point: don't twist and turn, stick to the topic. What exactly is the government doing to bring army under its rule? and in this case NS will be too scared to think twice. debate on this, rather than twisting and turning. The only reason why this government will continue taking dictation is because it is too scared of standing up to the military establishment. And i have got two PMLN supporters crying about military dictation, while they fail to realize it's their party taking dictation and it's their party that is not standing up to the Army.

I would argue that the army also shares quite a bit of the blame, as "ambitious" generals have always interfered in the democratic process far too many times.

Quite obvious. In recent times the civilian government has done nothing to address the issue.

Sir, it is quite clear who controls Pakistan. I have said nothing that is too far from that reality. There is nothing wrong or insulting in recognizing the state of affairs in Paksitan as it exists. What the founding fathers created died in 1971. What remains is run by the Army, for the Army. This will be my last post on this aspect. Peace!

(No need to further continue this debate)
Good to see you jumping to 1971. And i thought maybe your version of the history was different than mine. I mean how can, 'Pakistan be a project of the Army'?
PS: a piece of advice from a friend...I have said this before too, there is no need to be so persistent. I bet this persistence has led to some troubles in the past too(troubles, complications call them what you like. And i know it has).

I think the biggest problem on western route is the unforgivingly bad business environment. Just yesterday, the extortionists in Charsaddah blew two marble factories for not paying extortion money.
http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_PEW/20160425/Sub_Images/1103478142-1.gif

With rampant extortion, no supply of skilled labor you won't be able to reap anything out of western route. I am yet to see concerted efforts from KPK administration to prepare themselves to benefit from potential investment. From eliminating extortionist mafia,developing road infrastructure which would connect all of KPK to the proposed route to expediting vocational training.

Same complication in Baluchistan. I agree with the point made by @That Guy , western route should be given more importance. We should also look at the long-term benefits.

 

[barbarosa]

Army is right because civil administration is corrupt and they can facilitate enemy country such as India for a few thousand of dollars, Indian traders will play the game for RAW.They will creates problems for Pak Army.

 

[Zaneesh852]

Same complication in Baluchistan. I agree with the point made by @That Guy , western route should be given more importance. We should also look at the long-term benefits.

What kind of complications remain in Balochistan? Have you ever heard a factory being destroyed, a businessman being kidnapped? Its Ironic but Balochistan has a more business friendly environment partly because of future hub of manufacturing and core of CPEC. For reaping long term benefits, you need to plan today and start acting which is absent in KPK administration's actions. You have the right to agree and disagree but also provide convincing evidences to support your arguments.

Army is right because civil administration is corrupt and they can facilitate enemy country such as India for a few thousand of dollars, Indian traders will play the game for RAW.They will creates problems for Pak Army.

Looks like we have a new breed of educated lal-topis.

 

[That Guy]

I think the biggest problem on western route is the unforgivingly bad business environment. Just yesterday, the extortionists in Charsaddah blew two marble factories for not paying extortion money.
http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_PEW/20160425/Sub_Images/1103478142-1.gif

With rampant extortion, no supply of skilled labor you won't be able to reap anything out of western route. I am yet to see concerted efforts from KPK administration to prepare themselves to benefit from potential investment. From eliminating extortionist mafia,developing road infrastructure which would connect all of KPK to the proposed route to expediting vocational training.

On the other hand, I doubt extortion would be a major problem, considering both the PA and the Chinese are involved.

 

[Lavrentiy]

The Western route is a fanciful dream. Balochistan and FATA will always be terror-infested badlands where no trade route is ever going to be feasible. Even in peaceful times, criminals had sanctuaries in these areas.

The Chinese are not brain-dead that they don't know this. As they have a long history of relationship with Pakistan, they know what areas of Pakistan are relatively safer. The Eastern route through Punjab is the only one that that will ever be built.

 

[Zaneesh852]

On the other hand, I doubt extortion would be a major problem, considering both the PA and the Chinese are involved.

Sab kuch Chinese he nay to nahi dalna. Here's another one from yesterday. And you wonder why despite holding investment roadshows, nobody comes to invest in KPK.

That aside, the murder of Soren Singh and now this are also pointing to a rise in the target killing. What used to be the hallmark of Karachi is now becoming that of Peshawar