Army wants to become part of CPEC administration

[VCheng]

Highly incorrect statement and very insulting to our founding fathers. What was the logic behind this post? feeling embarrassed and sad.

Sir, Pakistan is a show run by the Army, and for the Army, the present thread topic included. What is incorrect or insulting in saying that? Do you think that acting illegally and usurping power honors the memory of the founding fathers any better?

 

[Hiptullha]

Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government

Incompetence? It's fear of reprecussions at the hands of the army which is stopping the government from probing army corruption.
It certainly doesn't help that the average Pakistani citizen would cheer on the army if it decided to punish and dismantle the government for 'unnecessary' involvement in army affairs.

 

[That Guy]

[QUOTE="WAJsal, post: 8261383, member: 161741"
You are only making a mockery out of your government. Army being corrupt and power only goes to highlight the incompetence of civilian government, a weak civilian government results in a stronger Army lobby.

@That Guy , can provide a better analysis on the subject...[/QUOTE]
@cb4
What @WAJsal is true. A weak government generally leaders to a stronger military influence, but even with a strong government, it is difficult to actually put forth accountability towards the army.

Take the US, did you know that for decades the Pentagon was simply not audited? No one knew where hundreds of billions of dollars went, and to this day, military officials continue to resist future audits.

Not to say that a stronger civilian government can't pressure the military for more transparency, it can, but Pakistan's government is nowhere near that level yet. It will take at least a few more governments for Pakistan to have truly effective civilian government, that can challenge the military's supremacy.

 

[Edevelop]

What @WAJsal is true. A weak government generally leaders to a stronger military influence, but even with a strong government, it is difficult to actually put forth accountability towards the army.

Take the US, did you know that for decades the Pentagon was simply not audited? No one knew where hundreds of billions of dollars went, and to this day, military officials continue to resist future audits.

Not to say that a stronger civilian government can't pressure the military for more transparency, it can, but Pakistan's government is nowhere near that level yet. It will take at least a few more governments for Pakistan to have truly effective civilian government, that can challenge the military's supremacy.

Transparency is used as an excuse and even if there is, its certainly not the job of military. It was a strong government until Imran Khan and TUQ, the guy who comes every now and then came out of the blue, started crying about rigging for 126 days and later did we know that came out as a waste. It was during that time, the military came right back and took control of foreign policy and national security as its first and second steps.

CPEC is the last thing you want to give away. This is a government project and planning and negotiations were done for almost 2 years and countless seminars and APCs were done to convince opposition. When the time came for its implementation, they all started playing their dirty politics, crying on its route and threatening ethnic clashes. That said, the military has once again found an opportunity to capitalize on this.

Lets not forget, the military has ruled for over 60 years without ballot and blessings of people, yet I'm amused, the lust for power and all the poor policies and corruption are not so often pointed by our so called free media. The few that did, i.e. geo, got closed down as a punishment.

Someone here gave an example of Erdogan and his success to force military to back away. Well let me tell you, the Sharifs have pretty good relations with him and there is no doubt in my mind he may have given them some valuable advice.

They have done the right things like pushing economy ahead and winning hearts with lower earning class just like that but when you have a b!tch opposition with lots of lota politicians who know all the ins and outs with the amount of time they have served in so many parties and, a military who has a mysterious identity, neither secular nor islamic, its very unlike Turkey

 

[That Guy]

Transparency is used as an excuse and even if there is, its certainly not the job of military. It was a strong government until Imran Khan and TUQ, the guy who comes every now and then came out of the blue, started crying about rigging for 126 days and later did we know that came out as a waste. It was during that time, the military came right back and took control of foreign policy and national security as its first and second steps.

That's a myth. The government never had control over foreign policy, if it did, the NDMA would have passed, which it didn't.

Though, I will agree that IK and TUQ made the government weaker than necessary. I was one of the biggest mistakes that IK could have made.

CPEC is the last thing you want to give away. This is a government project and planning and negotiations were done for almost 2 years and countless seminars and APCs were done to convince opposition. When the time came for its implementation, they all started playing their dirty politics, crying on its route and threatening ethnic clashes. That said, the military has once again found an opportunity to capitalize on this.

The military was involved since the beginning. The Chinese didn't go to Nawaz Sharif, they went to Raheel Sharif to guarantee security for their personnel. As for planning, there have been plans since before 2006, when we first heard about Gwadar's true potential.

But again, I will agree that political parties have made a mockery of CPEC, by going back on their word. On the other hand, it was expected.

Lets not forget, the military has ruled for over 60 years without ballot and blessings of people, yet I'm amused, the lust for power and all the poor policies and corruption are not so often pointed by our so called free media. The few that did, i.e. geo, got closed down as a punishment.

Geo? It's still around, it didn't get closed down at all. In fact, it's still the most popular news channel in Pakistan.

Military meddling was expected. When you've been in power for so long, it is difficult to simply let it go. Civilian incompetence has (in some ways) forced the military to pressure the government into action.

Just like the military had to pressure the government into owning ZeA, and the Karachi operations, it has had to once again pressure the government into owning the operation in Punjab. These are operations that the government should never have had to be pressured into, they should have owned up to them willingly, yet incompetence and self-service made the military step in.

Someone here gave an example of Erdogan and his success to force military to back away. Well let me tell you, the Sharifs have pretty good relations with him and there is no doubt in my mind he may have given them some valuable advice.

I doubt it. Erdogan was and is a far better leader and statesman. The reason why Erdogan succeeded where NS has continued to fail is that Erdogan moved quickly and efficiently. He knew the military would take power if they were given the chance, which is why he took control of state institutions and used a heavy hand to keep control, when he came to power.

This is why Erdogan is known as a strong-man, with accusations that he's acting like a dictator.

They have done the right things like pushing economy ahead and winning hearts with lower earning class just like that but when you have a b!tch opposition with lots of lota politicians who know all the ins and outs with the amount of time they have served in so many parties and, a military who has a mysterious identity, neither secular nor islamic, its very unlike Turkey

I don't know if they've earned the hearts of the lower class, simply because they continue to tax the poor and middle class, and subsidize corporate entities.

Anyway, that's my take on the matter. It's up to you to believe what you want. Good luck.

 

[ito]

To much interference in CPEC will just increasing the political risk thereby undermining the viability of the project. Now, I am not sure of the effects of CPEC on Pakistanis economy. CPEC is a classical case on how to spoil everything when you have a great treasure before

 

[notorious_eagle]

But again, I will agree that political parties have made a mockery of CPEC, by going back on their word. On the other hand, it was expected.

The Government has only itself to blame for making a mockery of CPEC. First, the Government for the longest time did not take the Parliament on board in regards. Not a single agreement or plans shared with the Opposition or smaller Provinces. While the CM of Punjab was happily invited to China, other CM's were not even extended an invitation to travel with the PM to conduct CPEC negotiations. Second, PML-N staying true to its core has already started engaging in massive corruption in CPEC Projects. The first CPEC project worth $1.9 billion has been awarded to Saif Ur Rehman, Nawaz Sharif's front man. Go figure.

And you're saying that the Opposition is to blame for CPEC.

I doubt it. Erdogan was and is a far better leader and statesman. The reason why Erdogan succeeded where NS has continued to fail is that Erdogan moved quickly and efficiently. He knew the military would take power if they were given the chance, which is why he took control of state institutions and used a heavy hand to keep control, when he came to power.

You're forgetting the most important ingredient in Erdogan's success, and that is deliverance of governance and economic growth. Turkish Real Economy grew by 64% between 2002 and 2012. Respect is earned with performance, not begged for. This is something our politicians need to learn.

 

[mingle]

The Government has only itself to blame for making a mockery of CPEC. First, the Government for the longest time did not take the Parliament on board in regards. Not a single agreement or plans shared with the Opposition or smaller Provinces. While the CM of Punjab was happily invited to China, other CM's were not even extended an invitation to travel with the PM to conduct CPEC negotiations. Second, PML-N staying true to its core has already started engaging in massive corruption in CPEC Projects. The first CPEC project worth $1.9 billion has been awarded to Saif Ur Rehman, Nawaz Sharif's front man. Go figure.

And you're saying that the Opposition is to blame for CPEC.



You're forgetting the most important ingredient in Erdogan's success, and that is deliverance of governance and economic growth. Turkish Real Economy grew by 64% between 2002 and 2012. Respect is earned with performance, not begged for. This is something our politicians need to learn.

Only thing politicians learned is offshore .

 

[WAJsal]

What is the purpose of having democracy and governments if Army is not going to let it run and improve over time ?

Do we not have democracy in action? what are you on about? it's the duty of civilian government to strengthen democracy, don't take dictations. Look to evolve, you have the majorities support. But the fact remains civilian governments do not care much about democracy, just like they don't give a shit about democracy in their parties...They look to finish their tenures.

How about acknowledging CPEC is a government project conceived by Nawaz ? How about proving corruption in these projects rather than making ridiculous sweeping statements ? If there is, does that allow the Army under constitution to take over ? Is it really their job ? Is there no corruption in Army ?

Army was made a stake-holder by NS himself. If Army was asked to supervise this project and provide security for it, this was bound to happen. And NS being scared of saying 'no' will obviously agree to the suggestions made by the army.
Weak government results in stronger Establishment.

'Your government' ? Isn't this tera, mera exactly the thing haunting Pakistan since independence ? How about seriously dividing Pakistan ? Everyone would just be happy not hearing tanay of Punjabi rule.

Your was meant to point at NS. Any sane government would never let itself be dictated. And please do not take cheap shots, it is our government. With all it's incompetence and stupidity it is still our government. Please don't take cheap shots.

What @WAJsal is true. A weak government generally leaders to a stronger military influence, but even with a strong government, it is difficult to actually put forth accountability towards the army.

Exactly my point. But he seems not to accept the incompetence of civilian government in this regard. One can't blame the army for anything(it's basically a culture here). What exactly has civilian government done to strengthen democracy or the say the system? I would blame the civilian government more here.

Sir, Pakistan is a show run by the Army, and for the Army, the present thread topic included. What is incorrect or insulting in saying that? Do you think that acting illegally and usurping power honors the memory of the founding fathers any better?

I found your definition of Pakistan very insulting.
Quoted Post:
"A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
reply:
"The very definition of Pakistan."

So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project. Pakistan is being run by an incompetent civilian government, not the Army. Army will look to keep it self strong. That is for the civilian government to minimize its role.

It certainly doesn't help that the average Pakistani citizen would cheer on the army if it decided to punish and dismantle the government for 'unnecessary' involvement in army affairs.

Army falls under the government. I say move to army the day we clean our political system, everything in the army should be audited. Everyone should be audited and it should all be done under the civilian government. Ideally speaking.

Its funny but in such scenario his GB will go straight to China and he will enjoy the life Xinjiang style

Cheap shots will only result in disappointment. Since you never cared to read my post, or maybe you had a tough time understanding it. I have agreed with points made by @cb4 , i am the biggest supporter of CPEC. I have always been. Please do not get confused here.
One should accept that stronger Establishment only means that the civilian government is weak and incompetent. Maybe the truth is too hard to swallow. Ideally the army should never talk about administration in any project, maybe they realise the incompetence of the federal government and wish to stomp their authority.
PS: Our PM will accept to this demand without much thinking.

It's the mismatch in intellect. While the Army is a professional institution which promotes talent within, Pakistan's Political Parties are not institutions but family built mafias which rely on nepotism, patronage and corruption to cement its rank. Nawaz Sharif and Zardari run their parties like King's and are deeply involved in looting the meagre resources of the country. Nawaz Sharif first became PM in 1990 when Raheel Sharif was probably a Major in the Army, its 2016 now and Nawaz Sharif is again the PM but it appears he hasn't learned squat. He is still the same corrupt filthy swine that he was in 1990. Compare his intellect with Raheel Sharif who has always been an overachiever, you will see the difference between the Army and our Political Institutions. It's not the guns, but deliverance that has allowed PA to remain the most popular institution in Pakistan

A better term to describe these political mafias in power would be: civilian dictators. As long as we have these mafias around don't expect the system to get any better. In fact they are a threat to the system.
@Abingdonboy , to get the system right over time you need to have right people in the right place. That is what is lacking. In some cases you don't require time to for the system to evolve you have the right people who correct the system and overcome the flaws. Army lobby being stronger only means that the civilian government doesn't wish to bring the army under the civilian government. We literally have two governments running Pakistan most of the time. We have got the Americans negotiating with the Army rather than talking to the civilian government. All in all one would blame the incompetence of civilian government here, they have the majority behind them. Our political system is too incompetent to curb out this culture from the Army. All in all no one is any better.

 

[SBD-3]

Cheap shots will only result in disappointment. Since you never cared to read my post, or maybe you had a tough time understanding it. I have agreed with points made by @cb4 , i am the biggest supporter of CPEC. I have always been. Please do not get confused here.
One should accept that stronger Establishment only means that the civilian government is weak and incompetent. Maybe the truth is too hard to swallow. Ideally the army should never talk about administration in any project, maybe they realise the incompetence of the federal government and wish to stomp their authority.
PS: Our PM will accept to this demand without much thinking.

It also means that the civilian government has been handicapped by using tactics. It also means that Establishment uses the shoulder of government for all non-popular decision but rushes to grab all the popular hu-haw. They use Government's shoulder in KSA issue but sabotage the opportunity to broaden relationships with Iran. Don't you guys know that people see all this?
I don't know what was cheap about the argument? was it the hypothetical scenario or something else?

 

[Bratva]

It also means that the civilian government has been handicapped by using tactics. It also means that Establishment uses the shoulder of government for all non-popular decision but rushes to grab all the popular hu-haw. They use Government's shoulder in KSA issue but sabotage the opportunity to broaden relationships with Iran. Don't you guys know that people see all this?
I don't know what was cheap about the argument? was it the hypothetical scenario or something else?

Why government is so indecisive in every matter which makes army to make a move ? Give me one example from recent past where Nawaz sharif took a proactive approach and defended Pakistan. Kal Bhuhsan Yadav ? Creating Pakistani narrative all over the world through information and foreign ministry? What is the duty of pervaiz rasheed ? Defend nawaz sharif and PML-N or defend Pakistan all over the world ?

If you cant take bold actions then expect incursions in your dominion by the one's who wants decisive actions on every national security matter

A recent example is of CPEC eastern vs Western route. How much fuss and uproar was created on it. The truth is Noon wants western corridor on priority and they should have defended this decision with proper facts and figures. How much factual replies we seen from NOON except rehtorics, empty promises on eastern route. This is kind of indecisiveness and procrastination that screws so called civilian and democratic government.

 

[saiyan0321]

The thing us that the civilian govts both federal and provincial have been constantly bickering on who wants a bigger slice of the pie and their Egis have only harmed cpec. This has promoted the Army to come forward and make this demand and this remand highlights the incompetence and weak nature of our civilian institutions. Its true that Pakistan never had a long democratic period but its been democracy for 8 years now and we are civilian institutions getting weaker. Its not the Armys fault. Its the federal govts that does not strengthen its institution to create a power nexus of control who h eventually places the army under govt..

We got army doing development in FATA, we have military courts for terrorists bcz the govt accepted that they cannot punish terrorists. They created military courts rather than create free and fair and speedy justice institutional courts under the govt. The army started anti-corruption drive through rangers and the govt allowed them which means the govt accepted that they cannot control corruption. Rather than strenghtening NAB.. The govt did by elections under army which means they accepted that they cannot combat nor stop rigging and rather than strengthening ECP they did this. The army asked for anti-terror operation in Karachi and all over Pakistan and the givt agreed which means that rather than strengthening the police system or law enforcement you bring in the army. The govt allows army to do developments in FATA rather than take initiative and do it themselves.. Its not the armys fault here.

The govt has only itself to blame vcz they have cobtinouaky weakened institutions rather than strengthening them. They have made themselves weak and vuberable. If the govt was strong, if they were doing all of this, proactive then the army would feel no need to interfere. The thing is that the people are this. They see that the army cones in picks up the govts slack which accounts to the unprecedented fame of the army and it's chief. If the govt was strong and proactive the people would look at them. A building collapses and we have army coming in to save the people. The govt is nowhere to be seen. Any calamity that comes , the Army stands the most proactive institution and the govt does jack. Weakness of the civilian govt after 8 years going on nine can no longer be blamed on the army.

 

[Edevelop]

That's a myth. The government never had control over foreign policy, if it did, the NDMA would have passed, which it didn't.

Though, I will agree that IK and TUQ made the government weaker than necessary. I was one of the biggest mistakes that IK could have made.

Did it ? Back in 2007, the period when Musharraf got booted out and Judiciary's movement was at it's peek, the 2008 federal elections was considered purely democratic and while most people including myself would agree the PPP government was truly corrupt and incompetent during its term, the momentum for the most part was on their side.

Kiyani and rest of the military had absolutely no control over any foreign policy and to prove my point, the military which has a history of siding with Saudis, couldn't do much to stop Zardari from siding with Iran and writing letters to Americans.

The military was involved since the beginning. The Chinese didn't go to Nawaz Sharif, they went to Raheel Sharif to guarantee security for their personnel. As for planning, there have been plans since before 2006, when we first heard about Gwadar's true potential.

But again, I will agree that political parties have made a mockery of CPEC, by going back on their word. On the other hand, it was expected.

There are differences between security perimeters and complexity of Baluchistan and other provinces so I'm not surprised why Chinese would approach Raheel.

Yes its true there was some plans back in 2006, but lets be honest that CPEC had just 1 motorway Line, 1 railway Line, and development of Gwadar Port.

The CPEC under Nawaz has 4 motorway Lines, 4 railway Lines, energy projects of coal, wind, gas, solar, and hydel, and industrial zones across all provinces and territories.

And its not like this is the only thing that has happened. A gas deal has been reached with Turkmenistan, Qatar, and Russia, and electricity deal with Tajikistan and Iran. Another regional connectivity by the name CAREC, Central Asia Regional Economic Cooperation was launched during Nawaz's government back in 1997 and its once again he is credited for implementation.

Geo? It's still around, it didn't get closed down at all. In fact, it's still the most popular news channel in Pakistan.

Military meddling was expected. When you've been in power for so long, it is difficult to simply let it go. Civilian incompetence has (in some ways) forced the military to pressure the government into action.

Just like the military had to pressure the government into owning ZeA, and the Karachi operations, it has had to once again pressure the government into owning the operation in Punjab. These are operations that the government should never have had to be pressured into, they should have owned up to them willingly, yet incompetence and self-service made the military step in.

I said this in the past context and my point is it did happen at some point. I don't agree its the most popular channel but it is debatable.

The government is far from perfect but again some blame also lies with the military as we all know they have been playing the good and bad cop games. They are just lucky they got a guy like Raheel firm in his policy to change their institution's perception.

I doubt it. Erdogan was and is a far better leader and statesman. The reason why Erdogan succeeded where NS has continued to fail is that Erdogan moved quickly and efficiently. He knew the military would take power if they were given the chance, which is why he took control of state institutions and used a heavy hand to keep control, when he came to power.

This is why Erdogan is known as a strong-man, with accusations that he's acting like a dictator.

You can't compare Turkey with Pakistan. Maybe you are not aware, the political dynamics are totally different. There it was Secular vs Islam with rich and military being Secular and poor being Muslim. In Pakistan, the political parties, military, and the people have no identity and that said you can't use any motive.

 

[VCheng]

I found your definition of Pakistan very insulting.
Quoted Post:
"A Project by Army administered by Army so whats the problem?"
reply:
"The very definition of Pakistan."

So Pakistan was a project of the Army, or such forces? Our founding Fathers gave a lot of sacrifices for it, it was no project. Pakistan is being run by an incompetent civilian government, not the Army. Army will look to keep it self strong. That is for the civilian government to minimize its role.

Sir, for the second time, you fail to explain what is it that you find insulting in my posts that you quote. You have you opinion and I have mine. My views, as stated above, have plenty to support them.

 

[Edevelop]

Do we not have democracy in action? what are you on about? it's the duty of civilian government to strengthen democracy, don't take dictations. Look to evolve, you have the majorities support. But the fact remains civilian governments do not care much about democracy, just like they don't give a shit about democracy in their parties...They look to finish their tenures.

That still doesn't answer my question. If you are not going to let democracy run, how can you evolve with time ? In two successive democratic transitions, if you can't see the difference in governance between PPP and PML-N, there is seriously something wrong with you, maybe its just your personal ego.

Army was made a stake-holder by NS himself. If Army was asked to supervise this project and provide security for it, this was bound to happen. And NS being scared of saying 'no' will obviously agree to the suggestions made by the army.
Weak government results in stronger Establishment.

Lets not blow this out of proportion. Its security in Balochistan... know the difference between that and other provinces.

A weak government results because of hostile, immature opposition. People like Imran take salaries but don't attend assembly sessions and his plans to hit the road to take on rigging has completely made the government miserable. No democracy can work until ISI's political cell is demolished for good. There is always a reason for General Pasha's name to come up and a guy like TUQ coming of out the blue and spending millions in his useless campaign is no secret.

Your was meant to point at NS. Any sane government would never let itself be dictated. And please do not take cheap shots, it is our government. With all it's incompetence and stupidity it is still our government. Please don't take cheap shots.

Pakistanis always have something to say. If you get dictated, you are a looser. But if you don't let anyone dictate you, you become a dictator and undemocratic : )