Army to get steep-dive BrahMos missile regiment for China front

[Blue Marlin]

HIGHLIGHTS

• The govt has given the final go-ahead for the Army to induct an advanced version of the BrahMos missile
• The missile will serve as a conventional deterrent against China
• PM Modi cleared this fourth BrahMos regiment at a cost of over Rs 4,300 crore

A view of the BrahMos missile and launcher on display. (TOI photo: Sanjeev Rastogi)

NEW DELHI: The NDA government has given the final go-ahead for the Army to induct and deploy an advanced version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, with "trajectory manoeuvre and steep-dive capabilities" for mountain warfare, in the northeast as a conventional deterrent against China+ .

Sources said the Cabinet Committee on Security, chaired by PM Narendra Modi, cleared this fourth BrahMos+ regiment at a cost of over Rs 4,300 crore. The regiment consists of around 100 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 heavy-duty trucks and a mobile command post, among other hardware and software.

The 290-km range BrahMos is a tactical or non-nuclear missile with "nine times more kinetic energy than sub-sonic missiles" for greater destructive potential. Jointly developed with Russia, it has become the preferred precision-strike weapon for the Indian armed forces.

From 2007 onwards, the Army has progressively inducted three regiments of BrahMos with largely Block-I and II missiles developed to hit a specific small target with a low radar cross-section in a cluttered environment, as earlier reported by TOI.




The missile's Block-III "steep-dive" version will now be deployed in Arunachal Pradesh to counter China's huge build of military infrastructure all along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control. Flying at a velocity almost three times the speed of sound at Mach 2.8, the missiles also have "a combined high-low trajectory" to evade enemy defence systems.




"This BrahMos variant can take a steep dive up to 75 degrees. Defence scientists are already working on achieving a 90-degree steep-dive capability, which in the future can lead to acquiring an aircraft carrier-killing capability," said a source.


The latest Rs 4,300 crore contract takes the overall orders placed for the BrahMos missiles to over Rs 31,000 crore. The Navy has already installed the missile on 10 frontline warships, including the latest stealth destroyers and frigates.




BrahMos chief Sudhir Mishra had earlier told TOI that the plan was to begin testing the missile from Sukhoi-30MKI+ fighter jets this year. The air-launched version of BrahMos, which at 2.5 tonnes is lighter than the 3-tonne land and sea variants, has already undergone "carriage trials" on a Sukhoi in June. The "missile separation trials" are likely to take place later this month.
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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ment-for-China-front/articleshow/53514581.cms

india has a gun but can they afford to shoot?............no
so why deploy it?

 

[Abingdonboy]

india has a gun but can they afford to shoot?............no
so why deploy it?

Posturing, all sides have to do it. Weakness is a destablising factor and is inviting conflict.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Thanks. This is something that i didnt understand.
coming back to my basic physics, the range of missile can be increased by increasing its flight time and increasing its velocity. Flight time can be increased by the bombardment while the velocity can be increased by changing the projection. Bombardment would mean changing the efficiency of fuel used.
But ofcourse the easiest way is to reduce the payload. I heard that halving the payload in missiles with less than 500 km range increases the range by 150% (@Allen Iverson ).
So my question is, which one of the above listed factors were changed to increase the range brahmos ?
@Roybot @Abingdonboy

you're right. As of now its 70 degrees, but they are working on achieving 90 degrees.


ps: i heard of the S maneuver that brahmos performs before it takes out a target, this ostensibly keeps it safe from any interceptor.

Brahmos fuel tanks are half filled as of now due to MTCR compliance
Literally there was a test in Andaman and Nicobar last year which was hastily withdrawn bcz it was a block 3 missile with tested in lo-lo-lo flight path (sea skimming) for almost 180 kms implying the range of the missile in normal course can be over 550kms (initially it has been talked that for a 290 km Brahmos sea skimming ability is approx 90-100 km at best case scenario with most analysts feelings its more like 80-90 km).

In simple words the 3 blocks - Block 1 and 2 are atm 290 km range with half fuel and will be added up when their maintenance time comes after 10 years of production. Block 3 is from the beginning a 550 km range one.

In fact i made a remark about the Air launched version also with a similar stat bcz the air launched version also together with higher altitude and the speed of MKIs will cross 600 km+ range.

Yes a normal S maneuver happens to avoid ABM abilities but Brahmos bcz of more fuel onboard and lesser distance till the target as compared to max distance it can fly has the ability to perform more than 1 S maneuver. Officially its a double S Maneuver where 1st S loop is rather large one and 2nd S loop is much sharper and closer to target before it dives 70 degree plus in Block 3. Unofficially the loop number is even but more than 2. Thats why i said more way points.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

In fact i made a remark about the Air launched version also with a similar stat bcz the air launched version also together with higher altitude and the speed of MKIs will cross 600 km+ range.

You sure about the Brahmos ALCM range ; this is fantastic range

 

[Allen Iverson]

Brahmos fuel tanks are half filled as of now due to MTCR compliance
Literally there was a test in Andaman and Nicobar last year which was hastily withdrawn bcz it was a block 3 missile with tested in lo-lo-lo flight path (sea skimming) for almost 180 kms implying the range of the missile in normal course can be over 550kms (initially it has been talked that for a 290 km Brahmos sea skimming ability is approx 90-100 km at best case scenario with most analysts feelings its more like 80-90 km).

In simple words the 3 blocks - Block 1 and 2 are atm 290 km range with half fuel and will be added up when their maintenance time comes after 10 years of production. Block 3 is from the beginning a 550 km range one.

Hi,I respectfully disagree with you.. The variant which was given to India from the Oniks family of Anti Shipping Missiles was barely doing 290 Kms with full tanks and hence without much objections from MTCR we could form a JV.. The Fuel reduction you have mentioned may be for separate missions during trial procedures but it is not the case in operational roles.. MTCR norms restricted the recipient country to do any major changes to the structure of the missile and hence we were left with no options but to play with the overall weight of the missile (warhead+ Seeker+Ramjet Engine+SFMotor) keeping the structural design more or less the same.. So As far as my knowledge about this issue goes, Weight reduction by all possible means was the key and they have achieved the same substantially during the initial years of its trials with DRDO.. However I'm not updated about the recent versions per se..

india has a gun but can they afford to shoot?............no
so why deploy it?

Why not?? Try giving them a reason to shoot this time.. You'll know the result yourselves.. Congress period is long over in India..

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hi,I respectfully disagree with you.. The variant which was given to India from the Oniks family of Anti Shipping Missiles was barely doing 290 Kms with full tanks and hence without much objections from MTCR we could form a JV.. The Fuel reduction you have mentioned may be for separate missions during trial procedures but it is not the case in operational roles.. MTCR norms restricted the recipient country to do any major changes to the structure of the missile and hence we were left with no options but to play with the overall weight of the missile (warhead+ Seeker+Ramjet Engine+SFMotor) keeping the structural design more or less the same.. So As far as my knowledge about this issue goes, Weight reduction by all possible means was the key and they have achieved the same substantially during the initial years of its trials with DRDO.. However I'm not updated about the recent versions per se..


Why not?? Try giving them a reason to shoot this time.. You'll know the result yourselves.. Congress period is long over in India..

go for it,and lets see what happens

 

[Omega007]

The first thing I would like to mention, before starting to reply to your points, is that I beg your pardon for the delayed reply, as something came up and got me occupied.Now without any further hoopla, let's begin the party, shall we??So here we go..........

No the solution was not simple at all..

What solution you are talking about here??I'm asking this because I'm not quite sure that we between the two of us, we aren't actually talking about the same thing.But let me take the time to clarify what I really meant to say was that, reducing the range from the 600 km of the base model Oniks to the reported 290 km for Brahmos, was quite simple in that, all the guys in the Brahmos Aerospace did was to fill the fuel tanks to their half capacities, that's how they cut down the range.I know this for a fact, had mentioned this years ago in this very forum (and others) and and I don't think the procedure was that much complicated, I mean come on, how hard could it be to just pull out the seals, siphon out some fuel and seal the plugs back in and voila, mission accomplished!!
So, I think you been talking about something else here, which could be more, well, complicated.

The Brahmos team had nothing much to offer other than mimicking the payload and the range, and of course the casing and Nose cone were all separately designed in India with different materials than the one used in Yakhont..

We already know that, but thanks.I wasn't really talking about that part.Oh and by the way, you missed out on the redesigned and enlarged control surfaces part.

The material is (Al-Cenosphere MMC (Metal matrix compostie))..

I know what MMC stands for, thank you, and it's quite standard in aerospace applications (light weight with high structural integrity, ability to endure high temperatures and dissipate the heat quickly being some of the reasons as you know already i'm sure) nothing other worldly or anything like that but thanks for the mention anyway.

I am one of the Project Engineers at L&T HED division where the outer casings, Nose cone are all manufactured.

Oh well, good for ya, congratulations!!Here is a cookie for ya matey!!Although I wish the L&T could actually be made involved to a higher degree in the development cycle, but it's alright.But weight, why would the Brahmos corps take the trouble to send the detailed drawings of the warhead section to the L&T when their entire involvement was limited to the nose cone only??That just doesn't make any sense, because the nose cone doesn't house the warhead!!As far as I know, when it comes to defence production, the subsystem developers are often hired on a strictly need to know basis and I don't see any reason, for the L&T to know anything about warhead section!!Had you claimed it was the electronics and radar section instead, that would have made a whole lotta sense, but this...............

So I think I'll believe my eyes and ears

Well, that's your right, matey.After all, I'm not some fanatical clergy nutso or some dictator that I would punish you with death sentence for not listening to my words!!

rather than a fan boy like you

Well, that's new!!I mean in here, I've been called worse but the title of 'fanboy' is a new one I admit, for over the years, I've made a reputation of being one of those moderately just and less biased and abusive types!!
Now coming to your point, you wouldn't be totally wrong to call me a fan boy in this instance at least, as I happen to be a fan of fast things and Brahmos is quite fast, and as I also happen to be a male, so technically you won't be wrong to call me a fanboy, only if you could call a 22 year old a boy that is.

who bases his claims on websites and news leaks..

Ahh..........no, I do not, you can rest assured on that one.Personally, I do not give two hoots about the newspaper articles.Why should I when on 99.99% of the times, any random Tom, Dick and harry, who are hired by the news houses as their defence journos, can't tell the butt end from the business end of a fuckking not they know the difference between a field gun and a howitzer??!!And besides, I may not be some uber engineer like yourself but in fact have spend my days in the university and I know perfectly well that news paper releases aren't considered as facts or evidence anywhere, thank you.
I base my claims on declassified research papers and official releases only..........and books written by professionals, like the one named "Cruise Missile Proliferation In The 90s", I forgot the what the author's name is but this book discusses the working priniples behind cruise missiles and the ways by which to increase their range without any radical structural modification or alteration in vivid details.

And of course not everything you read in the news or Blogs are true..

My point exactly.

DRDO is full of surprises for our adversaries as well as for people like you..

Oh I highly doubt that, I mean the part in bold!!Why i say this??Well, let's say, I've got my reason!!

So I heard, that they are using totally different warhead for Brahmos..

Could be, but i doubt we can actually come up with a better semi armor piercing warhead than the Russians, who has got decades of experience of producing and perfecting such high energy materials!!But I'm gonna take your words for it for the time being.

But what i also heard is that the 250Kg that is the current Spec is more than enough to break through the Hull of Bigger destroyers .. However,this part(new explosive) I'm not sure..

Of course it would suffice since modern warships, including the destroyers you mentioned, have seized to employ heavy armor for protectin since long and therefore their hulls are quite 'thin' walled tbh. And of course, a rather insignificant difference of just 50 kg wouldn't matter at all anyway since the kinetic energy delivered on impact is so high due to the velocity of the said missile.

No, it is 250 Kg and we have the Machine drawing which we look into everyday morning and the warhead compartment is strictly compacted for 250 Kg warhead,

Well I have my doubts wrt this one claim of yours for the reasons mentioned a little before, but anyway, let's move on.The reason why I said the warhead to be 300 kg because the that is the warhead weight of the original P 800 Oniks, according to declassified CIA reports!!And I just don't see why would the Brahmos corps need to take the trouble of modifying the warhead section in order to reduce weight by just 50 kg, there by delaying the whole project and also, when the original warhead with its 300 kg, falls perfectly within the 500 kg upper limit, set by MTCR regulations!!It seems so much counter intuitive to be real honest.

And I also do know that, the export variation Brahmos is totally different in many counts to the Version in use for Indian one..

Ain't it the standard practise all across the globe??

Because all our Bill of quantities (BOQ) received are from DRDO not from Brahmos Aerospace..

Well, that's understandable since DRDO holds 51% (?) stakes in the Brahmos Aerospace I suppose.

Why not?? keeping other variables such as speed and altitude as constant and manipulating only range and weight of the missile which are inversely proportional to each other why can't we arrive at the number (Approx).. unless one can't do simple 8th standard math..
Regarding the physics involved, would you care to explain a bit more in detail?? As to how the physics involved will impact the range of the missile??

Alright, why don't you do the math for us with using the same variables you had originally posted??I request you to calculate what the new range would be, if we are to reduce the warhead weight from 500 kg to 250 kg (figures originally quoted by you) while every other variables like engine thrust rating, SFC, air-frame drag, amount and composition of fuel in use etc being constant.Consider me an ignorant fool, a numbskull, a lost cause, a basket case whatever (I'm quite sure your original views about me not being much different) and you are my professor, so educate me now.I'll give you my answers after you are done giving yours, sir.

Why not?? keeping other variables such as speed and altitude as constant and manipulating only range and weight of the missile which are inversely proportional to each other why can't we arrive at the number (Approx).. unless one can't do simple 8th standard math..
Regarding the physics involved, would you care to explain a bit more in detail?? As to how the physics involved will impact the range of the missile??

Repeat of the above paragraph.

If they do the math correctly then they can get it all right. Atleast with an accuracy of 80-90%

Sure, the question is can they??

I have done it, it worked fine for me..Hence the whole post.. I you don't want an answer then why are you writing a question at the first place?? Just to prove you something connected to your ego ??

Well, to prove something for sure but do rest assured, it has got nothing to do with my ego!!You don't even know what kind of a person I'm or with which type of 'friend' I grew up with, so don't make any wild assumptions!!We make fun of everybody in our circle and we do it all the fuckking time!!Why??We make fun of each other just for the heck of it??Heck, we can't even leave our dead grand parents alone, we have to make them the subject of our jokes as well!!Why??Again, just for the heck of it!!And yet we remain good friends, united as ever!!You see Mr, ego doesn't really have that much big of a place in my mind, and I can only hope it never will.

go for it,and lets see what happens

We already know what's gonna happen, you gonna cry to your daddy, or should I say daddies, since now that you have got multiple ones!!

 

[Omega007]

Hi,I respectfully disagree with you.. The variant which was given to India from the Oniks family of Anti Shipping Missiles was barely doing 290 Kms with full tanks

I find this claim of yours very hard to digest and the reasons are two fold.
No.1 - For once, this has been the standard practise not only of Russia but also of every other missile exporting countries, including the US!!The practise is that, they ship the fuel sections (or the entire missiles in case there is no license production involved) in factory sealed conditions, with half tanks and obviously, they do not make the knowledge about the composition of the fuel privy to the customer!!That's how they comply with the MTCR guidelines, in those occasions they actually do want to comply, that is.
No.2 - This one being the more serious one, there are only a couple of ways for what you are claiming to be true.Either they sent us with a rather inefficient fuel compared to what they use in their Onkis or they sent us an engine with a ridiculously higher SFC than the one onboard the Oniks................or a combination of both!!But why would they take the trouble to set up manufacturing plants for different engines and fuels, when all they need to do is to just ship those fuel sections with half tanks in totally sealed condition, and keep the name of the fuel used secret, meanwhile, their employees in the Brahmos Aerospace keep a strict eye on what's being done with those parts??What you are claiming just doesn't make a sense from a practical or economical point of view!!That's why no one follows such wasteful practices.

and hence without much objections from MTCR we could form a JV..

Not at all.And MTCR is not really a binding rule but more of a guideline what the signatories are expected to comply with!!Nothing more and nothing less.

The Fuel reduction you have mentioned may be for separate missions during trial procedures but it is not the case in operational roles.

No, what he mentioned is in fact the case in operational roles.

MTCR norms restricted the recipient country to do any major changes to the structure of the missile and hence we were left with no options but to play with the overall weight of the missile (warhead+ Seeker+Ramjet Engine+SFMotor) keeping the structural design more or less the same..

Nor we had to bother about modifications since the different sections, including the fuel sections, were sent in prefabricated conditions with the tanks being filled to their half capacities.
And in any case, this statement directly contradicts with your earlier one and I quote "The Fuel reduction you have mentioned may be for separate missions during trial procedures".

So As far as my knowledge about this issue goes, Weight reduction by all possible means was the key and they have achieved the same substantially during the initial years of its trials with DRDO.. However I'm not updated about the recent versions per se..

Weight reduction alone wouldn't have much effect on the range, not by any significant margin that is.

 

[Allen Iverson]

Oh well, good for ya, congratulations!!Here is a cookie for ya matey!!Although I wish the L&T could actually be made involved to a higher degree in the development cycle, but it's alright.But weight, why would the Brahmos corps take the trouble to send the detailed drawings of the warhead section to the L&T when their entire involvement was limited to the nose cone only??That just doesn't make any sense, because the nose cone doesn't house the warhead!!As far as I know, when it comes to defence production, the subsystem developers are often hired on a strictly need to know basis and I don't see any reason, for the L&T to know anything about warhead section!!Had you claimed it was the electronics and radar section instead, that would have made a whole lotta sense, but this...............

I don't give a damn about what you wrote in that paragraph above which is mostly filled your sarcastic rants, but would like to respond to the part where it connects to the reference I've made.. Outer casing is the over all body together which is 2 metres in length, houses close to 6 Holes of various diameters in its surface area and a cross sectional Dia of 0.15 metre which is divided in four components.. All the four compartments separately sub assembled and the Machine drawings of each sub compartments houses a Cut section View which has names in the BOQ for each part that are to be housed inside..
Now coming to the nose cone part. actually nose cone is blanked & Formed separately in a hydraulic press which is also made inside HED complex but in a different shop floor.. Though I know the process flow, I've never seen the Component Drawing myself.. So can't comment on it much..
And now coming to the warhead part, the project Startup presentation conducted by top notches from DRDO and Brahmos Aerospace explained this part.. Hope it made sense to you now, that I have clarified the queries raised by you..

 

[Levina]

Brahmos fuel tanks are half filled as of now due to MTCR compliance

Yeah. I read this.
But i also read that the mid life upgrades of Brahmos will be flown with full tank.

What confuses me is ..how can Russia which itself is a MTCR member help India come up with something which defies MTCR norms (unofficially) ?

Brahmos bcz of more fuel onboard and lesser distance till the target as compared to max distance it can fly has the ability to perform more than 1 S maneuver. Officially its a double S Maneuver where 1st S loop is rather large one and 2nd S loop is much sharper and closer to target before it dives 70 degree p

interesting!

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

go for it,and lets see what happens

This will happens ==> Navy-less India