Armoured Thrusts, Pivotal Support Elements for Better Results

[PanzerKiel]

Not doubting gallantry at tac level - even 4 Cavalry Commandant got an SJ. But as you said the prep at Bde and Div level was trash, poor staff work too. I guess it was a mixture of own overestimation and opposition's underestimation that led to the failure.

Let me come in tangible terms. Following were the problems:-
- Out of date maps
- No info about the enemy deployed at front
- No peace time recces conducted of this area.
- GOC out of contact with Brigade Commanders during peace and during the actual planning as well.
- Absence of a Corps HQ to coordinate the efforts of 1 Armored and 11 Divisions. Both GOCs therefore looked after their own without any consideration for unity of conception and effort.
- Poor decision making at Div and Brigade levels, such as in the case of 4 Cavalry, 6 Lancers and 24 Cavalry.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

What are the constraints? Money Technology, availability? considering India isnt doing much better either and apart from T-90s they do not possess anything that can hold against Pakistan's Al-Khalid and T-80s on their own. Their own Arjun is nowhere to be seen or deployed anytime soon. Its too heavy anyway specially for Sindh.

What about T-72M?

 

[PanzerKiel]

I remember you supported embedded manpad teams with mech inf back in old pdf IIRC.

The strategy would have changed with time and the striking range of Opfor (no Apaches back then) and likewise your opinion may have modified as well. The same for obvious reasons can't be discussed here.

However, a general question.

What is something that you think we should have, that we lack to boost of our strike formation thrust (apart from gunships).




Don't know how accurate though (the map that is).

View attachment 622959

Embedded manpad and SP AD teams are there now, already embedded.

Bingo (for your map)

For Strike Corps, what matters now is that when (time), where (location), and how(manner) do you launch them. This will decide the outcome.

 

[IceCold]

What about T-72M?

What about them?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

this threat has already been countered

Considering no PAF than MANPADs or FM 90?

What about them?

IA's T 72M have no chance against PA's AKs or T80s?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Considering no PAF than MANPADs or FM 90?

AD, manpads and some other options.

 

[PanzerKiel]

The fundamental question that comes to mind is:

Are we still geared towards ClockworkWarfare or have we recofigured ourselves into DirusptiveSystemWarfare?

What is Our Governing Paradigm now?

We are geared for both.

 

[IceCold]

IA's T 72M have no chance against PA's AKs or T80s?

@PanzerKiel Can better answer this question.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel Can better answer this question.

Nikita Khrushchev once said: The weakest part in a tank is the mind of the crew inside.

If military comparisons were purely to be believed on the tech, capability etc, then starting from Ghazva e Badr till now, there wont be any examples where the weaker side prevailed. Poor tactics, planning, logistics etc, along with a host of other aspects, can play havoc with you. Our latest M48s in Khem Karan, once they provided their broad sides, they were knocked out by well sites old Shermans.

If you perceive your enemy as weak, suffering is our destiny then. We should respect the enemy, and during our planning we should give full marks to them. If i were in an AK, i would be dealing T-55, 59, 69, 72 and Arjun with the same frame of mind.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

How would you attack Jaisalmer?
which PA forces would u use?
what would be ur supply and comm lines?
which IA forces would u expect to meet?
what will be your time line?
what would be ur next step after capturing it ?
what would u do if u cant capture Jaisalmer ?
what would u do if you have to go on full retreat towards Rahim yar Khan ?

My dear friend i am not an expert like you, but i think our top brass did learn their lesson after the Longewala debacle of 1971. We have since got a proper cantonment in Pano Aqil and our air base at Jacobabad(Shahbaz) has the best aircraft PAF can present(F16C/D). During the 1965/1971 wars the Tank battles mostly took place in the Northern(Punjab and AJK) sectors.

PA decided to open the Rajisthan front in 1971(a brilliant move) which the Indians were not expecting.If all the support elements were properly thought of it would have been a great victory, as it would have released some pressure in East Pakistan and the territory captured would have been a good trade off. Unfortunately as we retreated we ended up losing our own chunk of land.
At present India has beefed up its defences there. They conduct yearly exercises in the nearby Pokran range. It will be not be a cake walk now!!!
Following Indian Army units are deployed there and in the nearby locations(mostly Rajisthan).


Southern Command,
XII Corps, headquartered at Jodhpur, Rajasthan

• 4th Armoured Brigade
• 340th Mechanised Brigade
• 11th Infantry Division headquartered at Ahmedabad
• 12th Infantry Division (converting to RAPID) headquartered at Jodhpur

South Western Command, Jaipur, Rajasthan -

- 42nd Artillery Division headquartered at Jaipur

I Corps, headquartered at Mathura, Uttar Pradesh

• 4th Infantry Division headquartered at Allahabad
• 6th Mountain Division headquartered at Bareilly
• 33rd Armoured Division headquartered at Hisar Military Station

X Corps, headquartered at Bhatinda, Punjab

• 16th Infantry Division headquartered at Sri Ganganagar
• 18th RAPID at Kota
• 24th RAPID at Bikaner
• 6th Independent Armoured Brigade
• 615th Independent Air Defence Brigade
• 471st Engineering Brigade

Since the last major war of 1971 both sides are 7-9 times more stronger in Quantity and Quality with respect to Armour.
Most of the relevant questions you have raised can be answered most proficiently by a graduate from the command and staff college(Or Maybe yourself!!). I would love to answer them but professionally they will more likely be a FAN BOYS DAYDREAM.

 

[Signalian]

My dear friend i am not an expert like you, but i think our top brass did learn their lesson after the Longewala debacle of 1971. We have since got a proper cantonment in Pano Aqil and our air base at Jacobabad(Shahbaz) has the best aircraft PAF can present(F16C/D). During the 1965/1971 wars the Tank battles mostly took place in the Northern(Punjab and AJK) sectors.

PA decided to open the Rajisthan front in 1971(a brilliant move) which the Indians were not expecting.If all the support elements were properly thought of it would have been a great victory, as it would have released some pressure in East Pakistan and the territory captured would have been a good trade off. Unfortunately as we retreated we ended up losing our own chunk of land.
At present India has beefed up its defences there. They conduct yearly exercises in the nearby Pokran range. It will be not be a cake walk now!!!
Following Indian Army units are deployed there and in the nearby locations(mostly Rajisthan).


Southern Command,
XII Corps, headquartered at Jodhpur, Rajasthan

• 4th Armoured Brigade
• 340th Mechanised Brigade
• 11th Infantry Division headquartered at Ahmedabad
• 12th Infantry Division (converting to RAPID) headquartered at Jodhpur

South Western Command, Jaipur, Rajasthan -

- 42nd Artillery Division headquartered at Jaipur

I Corps, headquartered at Mathura, Uttar Pradesh

• 4th Infantry Division headquartered at Allahabad
• 6th Mountain Division headquartered at Bareilly
• 33rd Armoured Division headquartered at Hisar Military Station

X Corps, headquartered at Bhatinda, Punjab

• 16th Infantry Division headquartered at Sri Ganganagar
• 18th RAPID at Kota
• 24th RAPID at Bikaner
• 6th Independent Armoured Brigade
• 615th Independent Air Defence Brigade
• 471st Engineering Brigade

Since the last major war of 1971 both sides are 7-9 times more stronger in Quantity and Quality with respect to Armour.
Most of the relevant questions you have raised can be answered most proficiently by a graduate from the command and staff college(Or Maybe yourself!!). I would love to answer them but professionally they will more likely be a FAN BOYS DAYDREAM.

I am not an expert. I am trying to make you analyse militarily. That's all.

Planning for all these is already done, answers for all these can be given in the minutest detail, but then of course this forum might not be the place to discuss these aspects....lets move forward.

In MO Dte and on other planning tables, maps, exercises - yes.

 

[CriticalThought]

I don't understand why we are still stuck in an armor vs armor mentality? Why don't we discuss asymmetric options to deal with enemy armor thrusts? Such as guided rockets from multi-launch systems, guided mini-bomblets, MALE and HALE drones, and even smart minefields. Or even automated armored drones. Did we really buy those old T-55s (?) from Serbia? How about converting them into automated drones?

 

[Armchair]

@PanzerKiel is the man I learned a good portion of the things about military tactics from. I remember him from 8 years ago when he was even on my FB. I would love to know more about rapid maneuver warfare near the Multan axis and a potential plan to outflank IA cut of enemy units, while capturing large chunks of land. If anyone can do it that I know it panzerkiel and @Signalian

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel is the man I learned a good portion of the things about military tactics from. I remember him from 8 years ago when he was even on my FB. I would love to know more about rapid maneuver warfare near the Multan axis and a potential plan to outflank IA cut of enemy units, while capturing large chunks of land. If anyone can do it that I know it panzerkiel and @Signalian

Thanks dear, till that time , as a subaltern, it was hardcore military history knowledge which assisted me, it has now been heavily reinforced by what army has taught me in more than a decade in the form of courses which have initiated me into the realms of operational and strategic spheres. You'll feel the difference now in what i present.

Mobile warfare is also one of my interests, would be happy to get your mind agitated!

My dear friend i am not an expert like you, but i think our top brass did learn their lesson after the Longewala debacle of 1971. We have since got a proper cantonment in Pano Aqil and our air base at Jacobabad(Shahbaz) has the best aircraft PAF can present(F16C/D). During the 1965/1971 wars the Tank battles mostly took place in the Northern(Punjab and AJK) sectors.

PA decided to open the Rajisthan front in 1971(a brilliant move) which the Indians were not expecting.If all the support elements were properly thought of it would have been a great victory, as it would have released some pressure in East Pakistan and the territory captured would have been a good trade off. Unfortunately as we retreated we ended up losing our own chunk of land.
At present India has beefed up its defences there. They conduct yearly exercises in the nearby Pokran range. It will be not be a cake walk now!!!
Following Indian Army units are deployed there and in the nearby locations(mostly Rajisthan).


Southern Command,
XII Corps, headquartered at Jodhpur, Rajasthan

• 4th Armoured Brigade
• 340th Mechanised Brigade
• 11th Infantry Division headquartered at Ahmedabad
• 12th Infantry Division (converting to RAPID) headquartered at Jodhpur

South Western Command, Jaipur, Rajasthan -

- 42nd Artillery Division headquartered at Jaipur

I Corps, headquartered at Mathura, Uttar Pradesh

• 4th Infantry Division headquartered at Allahabad
• 6th Mountain Division headquartered at Bareilly
• 33rd Armoured Division headquartered at Hisar Military Station

X Corps, headquartered at Bhatinda, Punjab

• 16th Infantry Division headquartered at Sri Ganganagar
• 18th RAPID at Kota
• 24th RAPID at Bikaner
• 6th Independent Armoured Brigade
• 615th Independent Air Defence Brigade
• 471st Engineering Brigade

Since the last major war of 1971 both sides are 7-9 times more stronger in Quantity and Quality with respect to Armour.
Most of the relevant questions you have raised can be answered most proficiently by a graduate from the command and staff college(Or Maybe yourself!!). I would love to answer them but professionally they will more likely be a FAN BOYS DAYDREAM.

Just to make it more interesting, you may like to factor in their 17 Mountain Strike Corps as well.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Mobile warfare is also one of my interests, would be happy to get your mind agitated!

If i have time i would like to debate on three major strike options PA can exercise .First is the Akhnor-Jammu axis,Second is the Longewala-Jaiselmer axis and the last one my favourite is Rann of Kuch-Bhuj axis(once did an article on it, got merged with an unknown thread).