Armenia has to respect Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity - Davutoglu

[Doritos11]

Mate, they are terrorists residing in Iraq, putting the territorial integrity of Turkey at risk.
With or without a fly zone . It is still Iraq's responsibility to take care of the PKK staying in Iraq.

Right right... We understand it dude, but please read my explanation because it actually makes a lot of sense.

The Northern & Southern no fly zones established in 1991 which Turkey took part of

F15’s, F14’s, MQ 1 predator drones & A10 thunderbolt aircraft flying above the no fly zones, without a functioning air force, what army can you send up north by land being intercepted by coalition aircraft, then build up military presence near Turkey which would give the coalition a reason to bomb that buildup calling it a threat.

So you tell me, advise me how you would do it in this case ?
Saddam responded by passing a law allowing Turkey to cross the border and fight the PKK.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

For exsample, me, but not in same sense like Erdogan, im just against coups while Erdogan is pissed because he saw that political islam doesnt work well.

Another example is that, the situation in Egypt didn't inflict any sort of damage in our relations with Turkey. .. You do realize that Erdogan bashed everybody but not us, right?

But Tbqh, the MB deserves more than that.

 

[xenon54 out]

Another example is that, the situation in Egypt didn't inflict any sort of damage in our relations with Turkey. .. You do realize that Erdogan bashed everybody but not us, right?

But Tbqh, the MB deserves more than that.

Well, Erdogan is unpredictable, my jaw dropped when he promoted secularism during his visit to Egypt.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/14/166814.html

 

[olcayto]

Right right... We understand it dude, but please read my explanation because it actually makes a lot of sense.

The Northern & Southern no fly zones established in 1991 which Turkey took part of

F15’s, F14’s, MQ 1 predator drones & A10 thunderbolt aircraft flying above the no fly zones, without a functioning air force, what army can you send up north by land being intercepted by coalition aircraft, then build up military presence near Turkey which would give the coalition a reason to bomb that buildup calling it a threat.

So you tell me, advise me how you would do it in this case ?
Saddam responded by passing a law allowing Turkey to cross the border and fight the PKK.

If Turkey has learned one thing in the last 30 years is that a air force against these scums is as useful as throwing rocks from a hot air balloon.

So would you please answer this. If Turkey would have invaded north Iraq at that time and KSA would have invaded south Iraq. Iraq would not respond because there was a no fly zone and a military presence would get bombed?

Come on dude don't come with this crap to me. If Iraq had the will to fight the PKK they would have.
It's just that as long as it wouldn't bother them, it wasn't a threat. So there was no immediate reason to put Iraqi soldiers in danger. It's as simply as that.

If the pkk wouldn't be attacking Turkey but Iraq. The entire Iraqi army would be marching towards that area.

 

[Doritos11]

If Turkey has learned one thing in the last 30 years is that a air force against these scums is as useful as throwing rocks from a hot air balloon.

Of course, never claimed heavy bombardments by the air force is useful against guerrilla fighters, but enemy aircraft ABOVE you will engage ground forces, how are you planning to deal with the Apache, MQ1 predator and A10, F16s & F15s whilst moving up north ? surely they will get spotted, don’t even doubt that.

So would you please answer this. If Turkey would have invaded north Iraq at that time and KSA would have invaded south Iraq. Iraq would not respond because there was a no fly zone and a military presence would get bombed?

They would respond in the regions where they still have presence but not effectively since 1991 was a destruction of the forces, don’t know what your trying to say with this question.

Come on dude don't come with this crap to me. If Iraq had the will to fight the PKK they would have.

Is it hard for you to understand that you cannot mobilize a military force from central Iraq to Northern Iraq when a coalition consisting of NATO + the USA are watching you from above with the high tech weaponry ready to strike, ?? what will, is this will going to stop the cluster bombs raining down on the convoy heading north ?

It's just that as long as it wouldn't bother them, it wasn't a threat. So there was no immediate reason to put Iraqi soldiers in danger. It's as simply as that.

Read about the military presence in Northern Iraq & "PKK area" 1988-1990, the whole north was full of military presence, this mentioned in many 90’s documentaries.

If the pkk wouldn't be attacking Turkey but Iraq. The entire Iraqi army would be marching towards that area.

No, Iraq has not used PKK against other states neither allowed them a safe land, the coalition forced Iraq to stop operations against PKK with it’s superior military power in 1991.

Let me give you another example than, you have to travel 10km from A to B, above that road there are Apaches waiting for you, have fun traveling when you can't stop them.

 

[olcayto]

What I was trying to say was quiet simple. If it would have been Iraq in the sights of terrorists.
They wouldn't have cared for the no fly zone nor the coalition presence. Iraq would have fought the PKK.
However since PKK was Turkey's problem, Iraq didn't react. Plain simple.

Again I don't think that Turkey was threatening any countries territorial integrity. Interfering in internal affairs is a other thing.

The subject will lead to nowhere. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Doritos11]

ther example than, you have to travel 10km from A to B, above that road there are Apaches waiting for you, have fun traveling when

What I was trying to say was quiet simple. If it would have been Iraq in the sights of terrorists.
They wouldn't have cared for the no fly zone nor the coalition presence. Iraq would have fought the PKK.
However since PKK was Turkey's problem, Iraq didn't react. Plain simple.

What your saying is unrealistic fantasy, you cannot defeat a tank with stones, the previous post of mine explains it in detail.

 

[Baradar]

I don't think Armenia would listen to Turkey, nor give up its territory at the expense of Azerbaijan. This is a very sensitive issue for the Armenians, who feel they are largely encircled by a muslim Middle East.

 

[atatwolf]

I don't think Armenia would listen to Turkey, nor give up its territory at the expense of Azerbaijan. This is a very sensitive issue for the Armenians, who feel they are largely encircled by a muslim Middle East.

Being sensitive and feeling encircled doesn't mean they can massacre Azeri. There is probably a good reason why almost all of its borders are locked with its neighbors. When you murdered somebody and you tell the judge "I felt sensitive". He won't let you go. You will pay and go to jail.

 

[Baradar]

Being sensitive and feeling encircled doesn't mean they can massacre Azeri. There is probably a good reason why almost all of its borders are locked with its neighbors.

Turks, Kurds or Armenians. Everyone has massacred someone in the 20st century. And if I'm right, Georgia and Iran doesn't have locked their borders with Armenia. And of course Russia helps Armenia greatly.

 

[atatwolf]

Turks, Kurds or Armenians. Everyone has massacred someone in the 20st century.

Karabakh war and Azeri massacre happened in 21th century, not 20th century

And if I'm right, Georgia and Iran doesn't have locked their borders with Armenia. And of course Russia helps Armenia greatly.

If Georgia and Iran lock-up their borders. Armenians will die of starvation. We don't want that. If Turkey and Azerbaijan want it can presure Georgia to close down borders with Armenia too. But the point is not the whipe out Armenia, but too punish them and convince them to do the right thing. Armenia is already second worst economy in the world. No need to make their conditions even worse. It is true that Russia is big military partner. Iran? Iran is zero factor. I think Iran's support for Armenia over Azerbaijan will bite them in the *** in the longrun but then it will be too late.

 

[Baradar]

Karabakh war and Azeri massacre happened in 21th century, not 20th century

Uh, no. They all happened in the 20st century my friend. From 1988 to 1994.

If Georgia and Iran lock-up their borders. Armenians will die of starvation. We don't want that. If Turkey and Azerbaijan want it can presure Georgia to close down borders with Armenia too. But the point is not the whipe out Armenia, but too punish them and convince them to do the right thing. Armenia is already second worst economy in the world. No need to make their conditions even worse. It is true that Russia is big military partner. Iran? Iran is zero factor. I think Iran's support for Armenia over Azerbaijan will bite them in the *** in the longrun but then it will be too late.

I don't think Turkey can pressure Georgia to lock up its border with Armenia. While Turkish-Georgian relations are good, don't forget that Georgians are Christian brothers with Armenians. And Georgia so far has refused to take a side in the conflict. Their neutral-stance in the Caucasus will likely to continue.

Armenia's economy indeed is in a bad condition, but so far no internal pressure in Armenia has emerged to give up their stance about Nagorno-Karabakh. They are a nationalistic people, with a historical pain from everything that happened in the 20st century.

Iran is not a zero factor. In fact, Azerbaijan already acknowledged that without Iran, Armenia would starve within minutes. Iran has many energy contracts with Armenia, and offers their territory for transit of Armenian goods. I think if Iran manages to cut a deal with the West, Armenia would profit majorly. They will get more Iranian investment and access to the Persian Gulf waters and other states in the region.

In the meanwhile:

Armenia urges Turkey to recognize 'genocide' ahead of FM's visit

On the eve of Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu's visit to Yerevan, Armenian Deputy Foreign Minister Shavarsh Kocharyan said on Sunday that Davutoğlu should visit the Armenian Genocide Memorial in Yerevan instead of making provocative statements, adding that Turkey could also open its closed border with Armenia if it wants to improve relations between the two countries.

According to Armenia's Armenpress news agency, Kocharyan commented on Davutoğlu's visit to Yerevan, where the foreign minister will attend an Organization of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation (BSEC) conference, saying that Davutoğlu should visit the genocide memorial to commemorate the victims of a crime.

He also stated that Turkey can contribute to the normalization of relations with Armenia by ratifying and carrying out the Armenian-Turkish Protocols that were signed in 2009.

“If Turkey wishes to speed up the establishment of civilized relations between the countries of the region, it must recognize the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the OttomanEmpire and open the Armenian-Turkish border, which it closed,” Armenpress quoted Kocharyan as saying.

Armenia urges Turkey to recognize 'genocide' ahead of FM's visit - Today's Zaman, your gateway to Turkish daily news

 

[atatwolf]

Uh, no. They all happened in the 20st century my friend. From 1988 to 1994.

So it happened in 20th century. What is your point?

I don't think Turkey can pressure Georgia to lock up its border with Armenia. While Turkish-Georgian relations are good, don't forget that Georgians are Christian brothers with Armenians. And Georgia so far has refused to take a side in the conflict. Their neutral-stance in the Caucasus will likely to continue.

Apparently you are now aware of Caucasus dynamics. Armenia is with Russia. While Georgia is with Turkey and Azerbaijan. They are building oil pipeline. Georgia is not neutral against Armenia. Armenia claims land from Georgia aswell as from Turkey and wants to ocupy more land from Azerbaijan.

Armenia's economy indeed is in a bad condition, but so far no internal pressure in Armenia has emerged to give up their stance about Nagorno-Karabakh. They are a nationalistic people, with a historical pain from everything that happened in the 20st century.

They suffer for nothing. Eventually they will have to give it up. More and more Armenians are moving to US every year. Soon Armenia will be depopulated if Armenian economy remains like this.

Iran is not a zero factor. In fact, Azerbaijan already acknowledged that without Iran, Armenia would starve within minutes. Iran has many energy contracts with Armenia, and offers their territory for transit of Armenian goods. I think if Iran manages to cut a deal with the West, Armenia would profit majorly. They will get more Iranian investment and access to the Persian Gulf waters and other states in the region.

As I said earlier Iran is zero factor. Those investments of Iranians are minimal apparently since Armenia is second worst economy of the world. Haha, don't lower yourself like that. Also just think of all the implications of Iran supporting Armenia against Turkey and Azerbaijan. Sooner or later Irani oil will run out and nothing will be forgotten.

 

[Baradar]

So it happened in 20th century. What is your point?

My point is that you should be the last one to accuse someone of massacres.

Apparently you are now aware of Caucasus dynamics. Armenia is with Russia. While Georgia is with Turkey and Azerbaijan. They are building oil pipeline. Georgia is not neutral against Armenia. Armenia claims land from Georgia aswell as from Turkey and wants to ocupy more land from Azerbaijan.

Building oil pipelines in Georgia doesn't make Georgia an enemy of Armenia. Besides that, a new Georgian president has been elected who is much more close to Russia than Saakasjvili was.

They suffer for nothing. Eventually they will have to give it up. More and more Armenians are moving to US every year. Soon Armenia will be depopulated if Armenian economy remains like this.

They suffer for their territory. This is a noble suffering.

As I said earlier Iran is zero factor. Those investments of Iranians are minimal apparently since Armenia is second worst economy of the world. Haha, don't lower yourself like that. Also just think of all the implications of Iran supporting Armenia against Turkey and Azerbaijan. Sooner or later Irani oil will run out and nothing will be forgotten.

Iran is for Armenia the most important factor, together with Russia. And Iranian investment has meant electricity and economy prosperity for Armenia. Imagine them without these things.

Turkey can't do anything about Iranian relations with Armenia. And Iran has the 4th largest oil reserves, and the world largest gas reserves. These reserves are mostly untaped, due to sanctions, so Iran doesn't need to worry about these reserves running out.

And you can remember as much as you want. Iran would have relations with Armenia till the end of times. We have relations with them that goes back to 2500 years. Nobody can intervene in that.

 

[atatwolf]

My point is that you should be the last one to accuse someone of massacres.

What do you mean? So you think it is o.k to massacre Azeri women and children? That is exactly how Iran thinks also. Keep making the wrong enemies.

Building oil pipelines in Georgia doesn't make Georgia an enemy of Armenia. Besides that, a new Georgian president has been elected who is much more close to Russia than Saakasjvili was.

The new president still supports the pipeline and is against Armenia. Armenia hasn't changed over night. It still wants piece of Georgia.

They suffer for their territory. This is a noble suffering.

Wrong! It is Azeri territory under international law.

Iran is for Armenia the most important factor, together with Russia. And Iranian investment has meant electricity and economy prosperity for Armenia. Imagine them without these things.

Turkey can't do anything about Iranian relations with Armenia. And Iran has the 4th largest oil reserves, and the world largest gas reserves. These reserves are mostly untaped, due to sanctions, so Iran doesn't need to worry about these reserves running out.

And you can remember as much as you want. Iran would have relations with Armenia till the end of times. We have relations with them that goes back to 2500 years. Nobody can intervene in that.

I don't care what is important factor for Iran. Electricity and economic prosperity? What prosperity? They are second worst economy in the world. Most African countries have better economy than Armenia. Haha don't make fun of Iranian investments.

You talk about Russia? They don't even care about you. Neither does anybody else. You keep supporting terrorism and support Armenian butchers against Azerbaijani. What do you think your Azeri minority think of that which is 30 million strong? The only friend Iran has is Armenia.

Oil reserves in Iran is smaller than Saudi's. Iran will run out of oil first. Guess what will happen when Iran runs out of oil? Iran oil crises will start. Saudi's will pump money to the enemies of Iran and the game will start.