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Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

Aslan

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Before Any ones goes any further please read this is not a VS thread but on the contrary, it is to compare the 2 platforms to analise why do people think that the one is better then the other, and we should have gone for this rather then that.


JF 17

jf-17-1.jpg


Saab Gripen

jas39gripen.jpg


Comparison side by side.

fc1vsjas39nl7.jpg


Now many here advocate that Gripen is a better platform and Pakistan should have opted for it, rather then trying to produce their own in thunder. Now for arguments sake, let say that Gripen was not sanctions prone, and we could buy them just like we are producing the thunder. What would you still go with, being a layman while looking at the specs they look kinda similar to me, apart from the fact that Gripen has the experience of Saab behind it. What do you guys think. And again this is not a Vs thread. Please dont make it into one. Thanks.
 
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Some details on Gripen that I found online.

Saab Gripen (Gryphon)
Low-cost, low maintenance multi-role 4th generation fighter jet
Length: 14.1 m
Span: 8.4 m
Height: 4.5 m
Empty weight: 5700 kg
Normal take off weight: 8500 kg in fighter configuration
Payload: 5300 kg
Fuel, internal: 3000 litres approx
External: 3800 litres
Max take off weight: 14000 kg
Range: 3000 km ferry range
Max speed: M 1.15 (1400 km/h) at sea level, close to Mach 2 at altitude
Acceleration: M 0.5 to M 1.1 at low altitude in 30 s
Turn performance: 9 G sustained, G onset rate at least 6 G/s (1-9 G in 1.2 s), min -3 G, 20+ deg/s sustained, 30 deg/s instantaneous
Climb rate: <100 s from brake release to 10 km altitude 180 s approx to 14 km
Ground turn around: <10 min with a crew of six
Engine: Volvo Aero RM12 (developed from GE F404 with the changes being at least new fan, afterburner flame holder and accessories, partly to make it more suitable to a single engine aircraft)
Max thrust: approx 54 kN, 80.5 kN with reheat, airflow 68 kg/s, compression ratio 27.5:1, mass 1055 kg, overall length 4.04 m, diameter 0.884 m, inlet diameter 0.709 m

Radar: Ericsson PS-05/A pulse doppler radar (can count anchored ships and follow road traffic at at least 90 km and detect typical fighter sized targets at 120 km).

Total mass 156 kg, antenna assembly 25 kg, antenna diameter 0.600 m,
Max power consumption 8.2 kW (114/200V 400Hz AC) and 250 kW 28V.

Predicted MTBF: 170 hours (air operation) Cooling air: 85g/s at 0oC, Cooling liquid: 3.5kW to be absored. Electrical interface: MIL-STD-1553B data bus and fibre optic video output to the display system.

Air to air scanning at 60 (at first 50) deg/s in either 2 120 deg bars, 2 60 deg bars or 4 30 deg bars. Surface mapping and search across 5 x 5 km to 40 x 40 km with GMTI speed adjustable by the pilot.

Four basic air to air modes: Track While Search, Priority Target Tracking gives higher quality tracking for multiple targets, Single Target Track gives highest quality data, Air Combat Mode for short range search and automatic target capture.

Targeting pod: Litening, with FLIR and laser designation.

The Gripen's built-in armament consists of a single Mauser BK-27 27 millimeter cannon, housed in a fairing on the aircraft's belly, offset to left to the rear of the engine intake. Given the aircraft's relatively small size, it generally carries guided weapons to ensure maximum combat effectiveness.

Possible external stores include:
Air to air missiles (AAMs). The primary AAM is the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM, and the Gripen's PS-05A radar can guide four of these weapons simultaneously. Sweden is the only nation approved by the US to perform flight tests of AMRAAM, and Swedish AMRAAMs have minor modifications to fit Swedish specifications. Other possible AAM stores include the French Matra Mica; the British Aerospace Sky Flash, built in Sweden as the "Rb-71"; and the Anglo-French MBDA ramjet-powered Meteor BVRAAM or German BGT IRIS-T AAM, now in development. IRIS-T is a short-range heat-seeking AAM with "off-boresight" capability. The Flygvapnet intends to obtain the IRIS-T to replace Swedish-built Sidewinders.
Antiship missiles, such as the SAAB RBS-15 turbojet-powered sea-skimming missile. A precision land-attack version of the RBS-15 is now in development.
Air to surface missiles, such as the Raytheon AGM-65 Maverick, built in Sweden as the "Rb-75", as well as the "BK (BombKapsel) 90 Mjoelnir" guided gliding submunitions dispenser, also known as "DWS-39". The Mjoelnir was developed by Daimler-Benz Aerospace (now part of EADS), with the Gripen as the first intended flight platform. Of course, dumb bombs and unguided rocket pods have been qualified as well.
The aircraft is controlled by a digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system with triple redundancy and an analog backup. The analog backup system provides a simple, reliable capability, and is automatically activated if two of the three digital FBW systems go down. The pilot can also activate the analog system with the push of a button. The Gripen was designed from the outset to use the FBW system, which was evaluated on a modified Viggen. The FBW system compensates automatically for the degree of instability built into the Gripen to increase its maneuverability. The FBW system also allows the aircraft to adapt to combat damage, for example using differential control of the canards to fly the aircraft if the ailerons are disabled.

The Gripen pilot can switch operational role in flight.

One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allows one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allows multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions. TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.

The Gripen can take off and land in less than 600 meters (2,000 feet). Once deployed to a road base, the Gripens are serviced by a ground crew of six, including one highly trained specialist and five minimally trained conscripts. A service team can refuel and rearm a Gripen in ten minutes. The Gripen features an auxiliary power unit (APU) to reduce its dependence on ground systems, and the fighter's onboard digital systems include "built-in self-test" capabilities that can download diagnostic data to a tech's laptop computer. Service doors to critical systems are at head level or lower, allowing easy access by technicians. Pilots using the Gripen flight simulators have performed simulated carrier landings, without an arresting hook; it seems a bit unlikely that this will ever be done in practice, however.

The operational cost of Gripen is 50 per cent lower than any other aircraft in its class that is currently, or planned to be, in service. It is twice as reliable and easier to maintain than its competitors.

Features under development for future Gripens include:
An electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar based on the PS-05/A, now being developed by Ericsson. An AESA consists of an array of programmable "transmit-receive (TR)" modules that can operate in parallel to perform separate or collaborative functions, performing, for example, jamming and target acquisition at the same time. The AESA will provide enhanced multimode capabilities, as well as extended range for beyond visual range missiles. It is scheduled for introduction in the 2005:2010 timeframe.
Improved defensive countermeasures, including new towed decoys and missile and laser warning systems.
The "OTIS" infrared search and track (IRST) system now under development by Saab Dynamics and being tested on a Viggen. OTIS will provide multiple modes for both air to air and air to ground combat.
The Thales "Guardian" helmet-mounted display (HMT), now being evaluated on the Gripen for cueing the IRIS-T and other smart weapons.
The Gripen's digital architecture makes software upgrades straightforward, at least as such things go. Possible software improvements include new radar and datalink modes; a new terrain-referenced navigation system; and a fully autonomous precision landing-guidance system. In the long term, SAAB is looking at a new engine, such as the General Electric F414 or a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ2000 engine used on the Eurofighter; conformal fuel tanks or a fuselage stretch for greater range; a wide-angle HUD; a binocular helmet-mounted display; a direct voice-command system; and an advanced missions support system.

Currently, only the SWAF has the Gripen in active service but during 2005 South Africa, the Czech Republic and Hungary will take 21, 14 and 14 Gripen into service. Hungary and the Czech Republic will get fully NATO-adapted Gripens.
 
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Hey khalidali you show comparison of FC1 and Gripen ...but i think FC1 is the export version of J10 not jf17 ...correct me if m wrong ????
 
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Hey khalidali you show comparison of FC1 and Gripen ...but i think FC1 is the export version of J10 not jf17 ...correct me if m wrong ????


FC 1 is the name used for Thunder in China, J10 goes by the J-10 only with 2 variants as j-10a and b. And the export version of J-10b that Pakistan is buying is called FC-20
 
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PS-05/A Radar used in Gripen looks to me batter then KLJ-7 used in JF-7

PS-05/A
PS-05/A is a pulse-doppler radar.
Range = 120 km distance and can see road traffic and count ships at anchor in a harbour at 70 km

Radar modes:

a) Air-to-Air modes:

LRS (Long Range Search) is used to detect and identify targets at high ranges.
TWS (Track While Scan) allows to track targets and search for other targets.
MPTT (Multiple Priority Target Tracking).
PTT (Priority Target Tracking) allows accurate targeting and tracking Air-to-Air missiles.
STT (Single Target Track).
ACM (Air Combat Mode) is used for automatic target detection in dogfight.
b) Air-to-Surface modes:

LRS (Long Range Search) is used for ground or sea target search at long distances.
RA (Raid Assessment) ensures bombing.
SMTI (Stationary and Moving Target Indication) is used for ground stationary or moving targets.
GSPTT (Ground and Sea Priority Target Tracking).
GM (Ground Mapping) ensures mapping of terrain under the aircraft for navigation purposes (e.g. terrain copying at night or adverse weather condition).
HRM (High Resolution Mapping) ensures terrain mapping by synthetic aperture in order to gain high resolution pictures.
RANGING high accuracy ground target ranging.

Is a further upgrade of MK-4 radar which will gain new AESA antenna instead of mechanically scanned antenna. This radar will be available by 2012.



KLJ-7

Frequency: X-band
Range:
Look-up: &#8805;105 km (for RCS of 5 m2)
Look-down: &#8805;85 km (for RCS of 5 m2)
Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode
Radar modes

Range While Search (RWS)
Velocity Search (VS)
Single Target Track (STT)
Track While Scan (TWS)
Dual Target Track (DTT)
Situational Awareness Mode (SAM)
Air Combat Mode (ACM)(with five sub-modes)
Real Beam Map (RBM)
Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS)
Ground Moving Target Indication/Ground Moving Target Track (GMTI/GMTT)
Air to Ground Ranging (AGR)
Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)
Sea Single Target Track (SSTT)
Beacon (BCN)

No upgradation newz.
 
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Gripen has the world's best data-link (link-16), meaning a couple of gripens can cover a large area and share live data with each other without being dependent on AWACS.

Same is there in JF-17, it has data link also, through which it can communicate with AEW&Cs and can receive and send data.
 
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Same is there in JF-17, it has data link also, through which it can communicate with AEW&Cs and can receive and send data.

But can they do the same with each other as Cannan had mentioned that gripen can do and dont need AEW&Cs for that purpose.
 
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So, it means that JF-17 is much much better than Gripen? (in terms of cost)
 
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There are a lot of things that sie by side comparison omits. Even in just physical terms, the Gripen will be superior, since it is designed to operate even from roads, and also its canards will give it a distinct manouverability advantage.

And also, its not the physical specs that make the Gripen superior, but the avionics and electronics package. The current gripen, and the future Gripen NG will feature some of the best avionics in western world.

Besides, according to the stats above both aircraft are utterly uselss! They have a speed of 0mph!
 
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There are a lot of things that sie by side comparison omits. Even in just physical terms, the Gripen will be superior, since it is designed to operate even from roads, and also its canards will give it a distinct manouverability advantage.

And also, its not the physical specs that make the Gripen superior, but the avionics and electronics package. The current gripen, and the future Gripen NG will feature some of the best avionics in western world.

Besides, according to the stats above both aircraft are utterly uselss! They have a speed of 0mph!

PAF has also made its fighter jets be used through roads.

They have made special patches on the motorway which can be used in war time as runways, with refueling as well as arming functions.

Check youtube, you will find a recent exercise, comprising of Mirages & F-7s landing, refueled and taking off.
 
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