Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[Junaid-Phoenix]

I am no expert but reading through this discussion, I would offer the following : this millennium old adage still holds as much true today..
" a bird in hand is better than two in the bush"..
all the F16's, Gripens, etc, etc out there are birds in the bush as far as Pakistan is concerned ...
IF these very technologically advanced countries had bought imported hardware 80-90 years ago, they would not be in the position they are now as leaders.. In my opinion.. the PAF leadership made a very wise decision.. that was either again do the " no-brainer" : buy stuff off the shelf, BUT with a hook in your mouth (strings not with you, of course) or start building from the ground up... it is a gamble .. HEY.. why not try this route,?? they have been buying for ages anyway and after 10 -15yrs you have to dole out Billions again and again...the advanced aircraft producers can laugh if any one says they are making a fighter jet..and what a sweet market for them..

 

[Iqbal_Brar]

LCA is neither cheap. It is late and not capable.

thanks for the infoo mannn...

 

[houshanghai]

You can see the quality of the manufacturing in the models of the JF-17 at Farnborough. If I recall, many attendants mistook it for a Swedish plane.

link;Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Rafales for Brasil #4, Cachorro-quente!

 

[Aslan]

Sir,

Please stop making things up----it is very immature----there is no comparison between these two aircraft as of today---.

The grippen is in full fledged deployment for the last many a years performing at 110 % of its capabilities---whereas the JF 17 has to see its first meet n a neutral ground---. Whereas the grippen is available with all the weapons systems that it needs---the jf 17 won't be ready for another 3---to 5 years.

My question is about the war with india starting tonite midnight----what does pak air force has to show for it.

Technically the jf 17 is just at its adolescent stage whereas the grippen as a system is in its prime---. You cannot bet the fortunes of a nation on something that is not even performing at 50% of its capabilites yet.

Sir Ji with all due respect, I got your point the first time an year ago when you had told me about the Grippen when I started the thread. You have taken my post and have told me the same thing like the 5th time now.

Hope u dont mind me telling you that. Thanks.

 

[Yoron]

Gripen.

Now, this is not real, no way they would stay in such a close formation when they have five hundred kilometers to play in, still keeping 'in touch' seeing the others through their datalinks but it's a, kind of, cool movie

Anyway, I think you already have picked your aircraft. And defense will always costs, there are no shortcuts to developing a defense industry. But it makes for easier predictions, and a more stable future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir Ji with all due respect, I got your point the first time an year ago when you had told me about the Grippen when I started the thread. You have taken my post and have told me the same thing like the 5th time now.

Hope u dont mind me telling you that. Thanks.

Hi,

I am sory and truly apologize for saying the same thing for the 5th time.

Sir, I would love to have this war bird put on a pedastal and marked number 1 in the world air forces as of yesterday---but ONE HAS TO BE TRUE TO THEMSELVES when comparing weapons systems that will make and break the out come of a major conflict.

I empathize with your position and the position of many other pakistani posters about this plane---this plane is one of their last hopes in having something for sure, against the enemy---.

I understand the hopelessness in all the statements of all the pakistani posters over here----it the make it or break it moment in the history of paf like a few other defining moments.

The term 'PLEASE FOR GOD SAKES' LET THIS AIR CRAFT BE SUCCESSFUL inadvertantly pours out of the statements of almost every other pakistani colleague on this board---including myself---.

Every one of you is trying to use their will powers to make this air craft succeed---well it matters of war machines---it does not work like that---.

 

[Silk]

Hi,

I am sory and truly apologize for saying the same thing for the 5th time.

Sir, I would love to have this war bird put on a pedastal and marked number 1 in the world air forces as of yesterday---but ONE HAS TO BE TRUE TO THEMSELVES when comparing weapons systems that will make and break the out come of a major conflict.

I empathize with your position and the position of many other pakistani posters about this plane---this plane is one of their last hopes in having something for sure, against the enemy---.

I understand the hopelessness in all the statements of all the pakistani posters over here----it the make it or break it moment in the history of paf like a few other defining moments.

The term 'PLEASE FOR GOD SAKES' LET THIS AIR CRAFT BE SUCCESSFUL inadvertantly pours out of the statements of almost every other pakistani colleague on this board---including myself---.

Every one of you is trying to use their will powers to make this air craft succeed---well it matters of war machines---it does not work like that---.

Based on personal opinion or facts?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

About three years ago on this board I stated that it would take about 5---8 years for this plane to mature and for the pilots to become seasoned on this aircraft to be truly rated first class----and quite a few of you members made fun of me---including some very senior professionals as well---.

Guess what---the infromation I provided is becoming true---and what you guys were saying in retaliation has been proven wrong---I take credit of providing that information and but not of knowing it all---I had just read it over the years and many a writers proficient in air craft systems had stated in their books as to how much time a new air craft takes to mature and how much time the pilots need to become 1 st rate in their class---.

When I posted this information here---I thought that there maybe some similiar minded people who would understand what I was saying---but except for maybe 5 or so posters everyone came a swinging at me---some senior moderators---some TT members amongst the lead---.

Some members had the mentality that the jf 17 would come in flying one day and the next day---it would rule the roost---people you are wrong now---time has proven that---how many other things you would be proven wrong on---just take a wild guess---.

If your foundation is not based upon truthfull analysis---the results would be fictitious. If your analysis is based on 'face saving' and 'hide the shame' factor, then you know you have issues that will pop up---it is just a function of time.

 

[rajan_united]

Thunder is Cheap and easily available. Gripen is very hard to get (so much clearence issues). And it has Isreal parts (provided by US) so you won't buy it anyway.

 

[SQ8]

Its true with any jet..
even the Gripen that is being advocated.
Had the PAF opted for it.. in the 2005 timeline.. there would still be a learning curve in progress with the jet.
The reason the Thunder is going to take a little more time is simple.
It is a new jet, Unlike the Gripen which has gone through its testing phase. It has been pushed to the limit. It is now operational for over 15 years.

The pilots that did the crucial T&E of the Thunder.. two of em went to the ETPS in england..
and flew this particular example as part of their curriculum.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Thank you Santro----thanks for your post.

People take me wrong over here---just in their myopic vision---it is not their fault---it is cultural---.you can only say what you have learnt and what you have been taught---.

JF 17 is a wonderful project that was a must for pakistan---in one shape or form---but pakistanis also have to understand that there are also going to be a lots of hurdles put in place and barriers to overcome to make this plane a success---. Each and every other nation, who could be effected by the sale of this aircraft would have issues with the development of this aircraft.

Nations would do things that they do---undercut the development---we saw in case of france---. We got blindsided by the french about the radar and electronics of this aircraft at the zero hour---which then changed the weapons symmmetry of this aircraft as well---. From a fully mature weapons system we now had to rely on newer weapons systems---the primary being the SD 10B---alongwith the chinese radar system---.

Our project was effected so badly that the coming first 50 of these aircraft were possibly swithced over for ground strike role primarily----whereas our major threat lay against the enemy bvr missile strike---flustered, blustered and confused---we were clueless as to how to proceed---going around in circles---.

We were not preparing against the enemy's strength---we are not prepared against the enemy's primary strike and air dominance capabilities---that is what I have been saying in one form or the other---and most of you thick as molasses have no clue as to what is being said---and the only thing that you can come up with is personal insults on integrity---.

 

[alimobin memon]

what i believe is jf17 tech is classified the info we get of jf17 specs is not what it seems zxuhahi show showed to me that they were performing in limit not showing its true capability .(actually it is better or lesser than online published specs)
As paf's backbone fighter it should be better than what else is in inventory.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

Thank you Santro----thanks for your post.

People take me wrong over here---just in their myopic vision---it is not their fault---it is cultural---.you can only say what you have learnt and what you have been taught---.

JF 17 is a wonderful project that was a must for pakistan---in one shape or form---but pakistanis also have to understand that there are also going to be a lots of hurdles put in place and barriers to overcome to make this plane a success---. Each and every other nation, who could be effected by the sale of this aircraft would have issues with the development of this aircraft.

Nations would do things that they do---undercut the development---we saw in case of france---. We got blindsided by the french about the radar and electronics of this aircraft at the zero hour---which then changed the weapons symmmetry of this aircraft as well---. From a fully mature weapons system we now had to rely on newer weapons systems---the primary being the SD 10B---alongwith the chinese radar system---.

Our project was effected so badly that the coming first 50 of these aircraft were possibly swithced over for ground strike role primarily----whereas our major threat lay against the enemy bvr missile strike---flustered, blustered and confused---we were clueless as to how to proceed---going around in circles---.

We were not preparing against the enemy's strength---we are not prepared against the enemy's primary strike and air dominance capabilities---that is what I have been saying in one form or the other---and most of you thick as molasses have no clue as to what is being said---and the only thing that you can come up with is personal insults on integrity---.

For most..
its not personal.. its business.

The problem is..
The oft used.. and popular saying for this country rings the bell again.
"beggars cant be choosers".

On more than one occasion it was made clear via back channels that the EF typhoon was available to us during the early decade..if we showed the funds for it..
The 2005 earhtquake.. was a pit for the economic rise of Pakistan.
even though aid poured in. the reconstruction took its toll.
Come 2010.. there were some projects underway by the military to upgrade quite a few systems.. and then the floods hit.

For those who do believe in god.. punishment or not.. it was a time of "WHY???"..just let us get up for once.
Still.. its our own past that haunts us.
The shah may have been a lap dog of the Americans.. but at least he was able to get hardware out of em..
Cant say the same about our dictators..

The greatest problem with us.. is mediocrity..where I sit.. I get to bang my head not once.. multiple times.. when I ask a few of my colleagues as to why they did not add a certain component to a system..since that would make it state of the art.
The answer.. shows you where we are;
"because India doesn't have it(capability), we dont need it".
There is no want to go above and beyond when we CAN..
when the capabilities,resources and intelligence exists to take huge strides..I swear it..
The reason we only seem to make mediocre advances is because that is what our people feel is enough.. they dont want to rock the boat.. make sure the Indians dont go gaga on an even more incredulous buying spree... and when they do anyway...you end up spending millions more in panic buying stuff from outside that you COULD have made at home had you set the bar even a little bit high.

That is the sad and sorry state of affairs in this country's R&D.
Whether its tanks/jets/subs/electronics/guns.. its just our own leadership.. in the military..and civil sectors to blame.

And all of US as well.. who really dont want to give a damn what the Army/Navy or Air force is buying.. what MNA or a senator do you think can even tell a JF-17 apart from a F-16??How much they cost, what they offer in capabilities?.. let alone purchases of other equipment.

 

[MastanKhan]

Oh webby,

You take another Think Tank member away from here and corrupt him to become a moderator---that is not right---.

Santro good luck my man---I didnot think that you were a policeman and neither did I think that Taimikhan was a policeman either---.

What can I say---I wish I had a say in the matter---.

 

[SQ8]

Oh webby,

You take another Think Tank member away from here and corrupt him to become a moderator---that is not right---.

Santro good luck my man---I didnot think that you were a policeman and neither did I think that Taimikhan was a policeman either---.

What can I say---I wish I had a say in the matter---.

I only noticed it after you mentioned it!!
Whoa..
Well.. Ill try not to let you down.
And not be a policeman.. rather a moderator.