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Are Russian T-90 Tanks Outsmarting US-Made TOWs?

G'day Mate

I would like to say a few things

1.) TOW have a wireless version made to modify TOW-2A/B for aerial use (AH-1s) during 2011-2013, but the contract were replaced with AGM-114 Hellfire for the USMC and currently, no wireless TOW in production.

2.) While almost all the post were focusing on Hard-Kill or K Kill (otherwise known as KO). TOW can be, if used effectively, use to M-Kill any tank. In fact, M-Kill is the primary objective for any infantry-based AT platform, you M-Kill a tank using your infantry, then either call in an airstrike to finish the job, or use your infantry to swarm the tank.

M-Kills are a lot more important in urban environment setting than K-Kill or Hard Kill. Because if you immobilise your enemy's armour, it will both block the road, which making it difficult for your enemy to transverse thru the narrow urban street and taken out of their mutual support position with their infantry, and if the infantry stay and provide security of the tank, then your enemy will lost their momentum by guarding the tank.

3.) I do think Syrian rebel were not heavily train on TOW. Most likely they were using their TOW to perform "Static Ambushes"

4.) TOW weapon package are quite simple. Beside the aforementioned wireless TOW-2A/B upgrade ordered by the USMC, almost all TOW missile were launch without any EM signature. It would be like launching a RPG-7, instead you have a 2-way wire to guide your TOW missile to target where RPG-7 is unguided

Davos
 
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G'day Mate

I would like to say a few things

1.) TOW have a wireless version made to modify TOW-2A/B for aerial use (AH-1s) during 2011-2013, but the contract were replaced with AGM-114 Hellfire for the USMC and currently, no wireless TOW in production.

Davos
What's this then?
WASHINGTON, Dec, 16, 2015 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States for TOW 2B Aero Radio Frequency (RF) Missile (BGM-71F-Series), support and training. The estimated cost is $268 million.
Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States - TOW 2B Aero Radio Frequency (RF) Missile (BGM-71F-Series), Support and Training | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

RF = wireless
 
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G'day Mate.

These would be the potential purchase of RF TOW by Oman and Taiwan, requested on Dec 2015.

As far as I can understand, they are not actual order until these possible sale were confirmed by the US Congress.

Davos
 
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G'day Mate.

These would be the potential purchase of RF TOW by Oman and Taiwan, requested on Dec 2015.

As far as I can understand, they are not actual order until these possible sale were confirmed by the US Congress.

Davos

RF = wireless. As opposed to the very same missile in wireguided version
From post # 36: Are Russian T-90 Tanks Outsmarting US-Made TOWs? | Page 3

pKCKwpD.jpg


2b.jpg


Reiterating from post 25:
As for exports: DSCA notifications containing BGM-71E-4B-RF
Saudi Arabia Dec. 17, 2009
Bahrain September 14, 2011
Saudi Arabia Dec 5, 2013
Lebanon Jul 22, 2015
Morocco Nov 18, 2015
Taiwan Dec, 16, 2015
Oman Jan. 7, 2016
Source: Are Russian T-90 Tanks Outsmarting US-Made TOWs? | Page 2
So, Oman is just the latests in a string that started 2009

As for your suggestion that DSCA announced sales were blocked, consider:

Raytheon announced that it had received a $55 million contract on July 18, 2010, to deliver TOW 2A RF missiles as part of a Foreign Military Sale to Saudi Arabia. TOW RF missiles include an RF transmitter added to the missile case and an RF receiver located inside the missile.
https://www.militaryperiscope.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/missrock/antitank/w0003228.shtml
TOW 2 Wire-Guided Anti-Tank Missile - Army Technology
Raytheon: Raytheon Awarded $55 Million Contract to Deliver TOW Missiles to Saudi Arabia - Jul 18, 2010
This follows the DSCA notification of dec 17, 2009. Would you like all others to be verified too?

The US Army awarded Raytheon an initial contract worth $163 million for Wireless TOW development September 15, 2006. The radio frequency or wireless TOW is available with TOW 2A and TOW 2B warheads.
BGM-71G TOW

TOW 2B RF anti-tank missile
Another development of the TOW 2B Aero, the wireless TOW 2B RF is in production. TOW 2B RF is modified with a one-way, stealthy radio-frequency command link which dispenses with the wire link and gives a range of 4.5km. The system is compatible with current launchers.
TOW 2 Wire-Guided Anti-Tank Missile - Army Technology

In October 2012, Raytheon was awarded a $349m five-year contract to deliver 6,676 new wireless TOW missiles to the US military.
TOW 2 Wire-Guided Anti-Tank Missile - Army Technology
October 2012 + 5 years = October 2017 would be the end of that delivery period (i.e. in production).

The TOW Weapon System has transitioned to wireless guidance and is being produced for the U.S. Army, U.S. Marines and all international customers.
Raytheon: Tube-launched, optically-tracked, wireless-guided (TOW) weapon system
Raytheon Australia: Tube-launched, optically-tracked, wireless-guided (TOW) weapon system
That is what the producer Raytheon has on its website.

So, I'm not making this up, ok?
 
Last edited:
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RF = wireless. As opposed to the very same missile in wireguided version
From post # 36: Are Russian T-90 Tanks Outsmarting US-Made TOWs? | Page 3

pKCKwpD.jpg


2b.jpg


Reiterating from post 25:
As for exports: DSCA notifications containing BGM-71E-4B-RF
Saudi Arabia Dec. 17, 2009
Bahrain September 14, 2011
Saudi Arabia Dec 5, 2013
Lebanon Jul 22, 2015
Morocco Nov 18, 2015
Taiwan Dec, 16, 2015
Oman Jan. 7, 2016
Source: Are Russian T-90 Tanks Outsmarting US-Made TOWs? | Page 2
So, Oman is just the latests in a string that started 2009

As for your suggestion that DSCA announced sales were blocked, consider:

Raytheon announced that it had received a $55 million contract on July 18, 2010, to deliver TOW 2A RF missiles as part of a Foreign Military Sale to Saudi Arabia. TOW RF missiles include an RF transmitter added to the missile case and an RF receiver located inside the missile.
https://www.militaryperiscope.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/missrock/antitank/w0003228.shtml
TOW 2 Wire-Guided Anti-Tank Missile - Army Technology
Raytheon: Raytheon Awarded $55 Million Contract to Deliver TOW Missiles to Saudi Arabia - Jul 18, 2010
This follows the DSCA notification of dec 17, 2009. Would you like all others to be verified too?

The US Army awarded Raytheon an initial contract worth $163 million for Wireless TOW development September 15, 2006. The radio frequency or wireless TOW is available with TOW 2A and TOW 2B warheads.
BGM-71G TOW

TOW 2B RF anti-tank missile
Another development of the TOW 2B Aero, the wireless TOW 2B RF is in production. TOW 2B RF is modified with a one-way, stealthy radio-frequency command link which dispenses with the wire link and gives a range of 4.5km. The system is compatible with current launchers.
TOW 2 Wire-Guided Anti-Tank Missile - Army Technology

In October 2012, Raytheon was awarded a $349m five-year contract to deliver 6,676 new wireless TOW missiles to the US military.
TOW 2 Wire-Guided Anti-Tank Missile - Army Technology
October 2012 + 5 years = October 2017 would be the end of that delivery period (i.e. in production).

The TOW Weapon System has transitioned to wireless guidance and is being produced for the U.S. Army, U.S. Marines and all international customers.
Raytheon: Tube-launched, optically-tracked, wireless-guided (TOW) weapon system
Raytheon Australia: Tube-launched, optically-tracked, wireless-guided (TOW) weapon system
That is what the producer Raytheon has on its website.

So, I'm not making this up, ok?

G'Day mate

I don't understand what you are asking of me?

Are you saying i said no such thing as wireless TOW exist or are you saying I am wrong that Wireless TOW missile is currently out id production?

If it is the first one, then you probably misread my original post, I said there existed a wireless TOW missile between 2011 to 2013, when the US Army and Saudi bought about 2000 of the RF TOW in 2013 and US Army received 7000 TOW RF missile in 2014

If you are saying the latter. There are currently no outstanding contract for TOW RF, the production run for the US Army finished somewhere in 2014 and as far as i know, TOW missile is not being surplus, Raytheon only make them when they have orders, and at this moment, they don't

Davos
 
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G'Day mate

I don't understand what you are asking of me?

Are you saying i said no such thing as wireless TOW exist or are you saying I am wrong that Wireless TOW missile is currently out id production?

If it is the first one, then you probably misread my original post, I said there existed a wireless TOW missile between 2011 to 2013, when the US Army and Saudi bought about 2000 of the RF TOW in 2013 and US Army received 7000 TOW RF missile in 2014

If you are saying the latter. There are currently no outstanding contract for TOW RF, the production run for the US Army finished somewhere in 2014 and as far as i know, TOW missile is not being surplus, Raytheon only make them when they have orders, and at this moment, they don't

Davos
You are suggesting
  1. beyond 2014, no RFs were made.
  2. Besides US Army and Saudi Arabia, there are no customers foir RFs.
So, why these DSCA announcements?
Bahrain September 14, 2011
Lebanon Jul 22, 2015
Morocco Nov 18, 2015
Taiwan Dec, 16, 2015
Oman Jan. 7, 2016

Most professional defence journal accept DSCA as announcements of pending sale. E.g. Morocco requests wireless TOW missiles | IHS Jane's 360

Are you suggesting Congress has declined to approve all of these possible sales? What do the Congressional Records say on this?

Are you suggesting that none of these potential client nations went ahead to actually enter into a contract with Raytheon for TOW 2B Aero RF? These are FMS deals. Mind you, FMS involves government to government deals, not direct commercial contracts (DCC) between government and commercial contractor.

What to make of these then?
Jun. 11, 2015 | 12:30 AM
Lebanese Army tests newly acquired TOW-II missiles
The Lebanese Army demonstrated their newly received TOW-II missile launchers Wednesday at a military base in the Bekaa Valley in a show of force as it prepares to engage militants on Lebanon’s border.
Lebanese Army tests newly acquired TOW-II missiles | News , Lebanon News | THE DAILY STAR

Wed Dec 16, 2015
The Obama administration formally notified Congress on Wednesday of a $1.83 billion arms sale package for Taiwan, including two frigates, anti-tank missiles, amphibious assault vehicles and other equipment, drawing an angry response from China.
The authorization, which Reuters on Monday reported was imminent, came a year after Congress passed legislation approving the sale. It is the first such major arms sale to Taiwan in more than four years.
Obama administration authorizes $1.83 billion arms sale to Taiwan| Reuters

Anyway, TOW 2B Aero is available in both traditional wireguided version and radio/wireless guided version, according to manufacturer Raytheon. Even if TOW 2B Aero RFs are only made to order, that still means they are not 'out of production' (which I take to mean: no longer being made at all).
 
. . . . . .
You are suggesting
  1. beyond 2014, no RFs were made.
  2. Besides US Army and Saudi Arabia, there are no customers foir RFs.
So, why these DSCA announcements?
Bahrain September 14, 2011
Lebanon Jul 22, 2015
Morocco Nov 18, 2015
Taiwan Dec, 16, 2015
Oman Jan. 7, 2016

Most professional defence journal accept DSCA as announcements of pending sale. E.g. Morocco requests wireless TOW missiles | IHS Jane's 360

Are you suggesting Congress has declined to approve all of these possible sales? What do the Congressional Records say on this?

Are you suggesting that none of these potential client nations went ahead to actually enter into a contract with Raytheon for TOW 2B Aero RF? These are FMS deals. Mind you, FMS involves government to government deals, not direct commercial contracts (DCC) between government and commercial contractor.

What to make of these then?

Lebanese Army tests newly acquired TOW-II missiles | News , Lebanon News | THE DAILY STAR


Obama administration authorizes $1.83 billion arms sale to Taiwan| Reuters

Anyway, TOW 2B Aero is available in both traditional wireguided version and radio/wireless guided version, according to manufacturer Raytheon. Even if TOW 2B Aero RFs are only made to order, that still means they are not 'out of production' (which I take to mean: no longer being made at all).

G'day Mate.

I think you have seriously misread my post.

In the post, I only nominated 2011-2013 is because that is the contract that was supposed to carry the TOW2 RF to 2017 when the US military signed a 5 years incremental deal with Raytheon. Which would have allow TOW to still be in production.

I have singled out that particular deal on that post because that is the deal that was on top of my mind, and I simply used it to illustrate there were indeed TOW2 RF in service. However, since that contract was cancelled by USMC (Which retired all their TOW in 2013) and all other contract has finished its run, there are currently no TOW RF in production.

The same reason why I only say US and Saudi had purchased TOW RF, I did not mean only them bought TOW RF, again, this is just the example that listed on my mind.

It's like you said Bahrain, Lebanon, Morocco, Taiwan and Oman, but leave out Israel and Kuwait, that does not mean you said Kuwait and Israel did not obtain TOW RF in 2007 and 2008 respectively?

Davos
 
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It's like you said Bahrain, Lebanon, Morocco, Taiwan and Oman, but leave out Israel and Kuwait, that does not mean you said Kuwait and Israel did not obtain TOW RF in 2007 and 2008 respectively?

Davos
BGM-71G TOW
a.k.a. BGM-71E-4B-RF
, BGM-71F-3-RF, radio frequency TOW, TOW 2A Radio Frequency, TOW 2B Radio Frequency and wireless TOW

I search at DSCA website with a variety of search terms, results as follows:

BGM-71E-4B-RF > Morocco (11/2015), Lebanon (6/2015), Saudi Arabia SANG (12/2009), Bahrain (9/2011)
BGM-71F-3-RF > Oman (1/2016), Bahrain (9/2011)
TOW RF > Morocco (11/2015), Taiwan (12/2015), Lebanon (6/2015), Oman (1/2016), Saudi Arabia (12/2013), Bahrain (9/2011)
TOW 2A > Morocco (11/2015), Lebanon (6/2015), Egypt (9/2008: no RF), Saudi Arabia (12/2013: two entries: 13-52 without RF and 13-57 with RF)
TOW 2B > Taiwan (12/2015), Oman (1/2016), Saudi Arabia (12/2013: two entries: 13-52 without RF and 13-57 with RF)
TOW wireless > [no hits]
TOW radioguided > [no hits]
TOW radio-guided > [no hits]
TOW radio-frequency > Lebanon (6/2015), Saudi Arabia (12/2013)
BGM-71 > Saudi Arabia (12/2013: two entries: 13-52 without RF and 13-57 with RF)
AERO > Oman (1/2016), Taiwan (12/2015), Bahrain (9/2011), Saudi Arabia (12/2013)

Note please:
Israel TOW > [no hits]
Israel BGM-71 > [no hits]
Kuwait BGM-71 > [no hits]
Kuwait TOW > 7/2009 > upgrade Desert Warrior Fire Control System with Gunner's Integrated TOW System (GITS II)

I is not what I mean (or have included/left out).
These are the results for these keywords from Search | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

I have singled out that particular deal on that post because that is the deal that was on top of my mind, and I simply used it to illustrate there were indeed TOW2 RF in service. However, since that contract was cancelled by USMC (Which retired all their TOW in 2013) and all other contract has finished its run, there are currently no TOW RF in production.
If there are no Tow RF in production, how are the intended purchases, announced via DSCA, going to be fullfilled?
 
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So, you're saying its crew bailed for no good reason? (look closely at 1.00-1.07)


top hatch was probably open blowing out the guys eardrums, or he forget he was in a T-90 and not a T-72M1. all and all it was fight or flight response and he chose the latter


no smoke coming out of the hatch and no after damage video means it didn't penetrate


i am more interested in how close the TOW-2 team was (800 meters), and the T-90 RWS firing in their direction.

So, you're saying its crew bailed for no good reason? (look closely at 1.00-1.07)
2ljpdns.png



look closely at how the hatch is open the entire time :oops: commanders hatch is open as well but the RWS is blocking the view
 
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2ljpdns.png



look closely at how the hatch is open the entire time :oops: commanders hatch is open as well but the RWS is blocking the view
Yep, both are open all the time: it's pretending to be Mickey Mouse. Makes you wonder. It's not moving. There's only 1 guy getting out. Missile seems to hit the area where the gun sights are. Maybe they got knocked out. There's not a lot of ERA there.

T-90S+Tank.jpg
 
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