Architecture of Zia's Islamization

[EasyNow]

When it comes to Islam, most of the things are Black and white, only practice may be the gray area. Islam speaks about nations rather then states, even before 1911, there was no concept of countries. There was states, and empires, both were totally integrated with this nation concept.

No dear, zia era haven't done that. But put real moderate Islam in front of everyone. He could order to the newscaster to hide behind the abayah, hide face bla bla, but his order was to put dopata on the head. He could order to blow up the girls school or education only through madrassa but he order to put Islamic clause into education system. He could order every theif get copped the hands, or every adultery criminal get lash etc, eye to eye thing for every case, but instead he put them as only extreme punishments in case only needed. So o on.. At his time, there was no conflict between shia sunni or anything. his Taliban's implement peace in Afghanistan, who open up schools, colleges, and Kabul university. My cousin complete his MD only after the university was reopened and women were also doing medical there since, Taliban used to say where we will take our women for medical? similarly, I remember one headline of newspaper in 1997, 98% of Afghanistan is under peace because of Taliban take over. what ever, nothing point's things towards zia mismanagement. The only thing is, foreign elements plant murder for him which cause great loss to Islamic world.

Issue of TTP or people falling pray for them is not Madrassa, but lack of Islamic Education, which gave free hand to TTP to say what every they want to preach under Islam.

Are you saying the Taliban in Afghanistan were a good regime? It undermines all you have said about avoiding extremes.

And no dear, Zia has no right to tell a newsreader to wear abaya - tbh he overstepped his mark even asking for dupatta. He was just another man, what right does he have to ask that of another citizen? Where was his beard if he was so concerned with appearances?

How can the practice be grey when religion is black and white? there is some ambiguity which is why peoples' practises are different. I come back to my point that one man's islam is another mans taliban - no one should force there religious views on others.

Yes you can have censorship, you can ban indecent images - all of this is possible without turning the country into a sharia state.

 

[Black Mamba1]

Are we confusing between religious teaching to excel as a human being ( which is a constant) and rituals ( which changes according to time, region, culture etc)

 

[Fracker]

Are you saying the Taliban in Afghanistan were a good regime? It undermines all you have said about avoiding extremes.

And no dear, Zia has no right to tell a newsreader to wear abaya - tbh he overstepped his mark even asking for dupatta. He was just another man, what right does he have to ask that of another citizen? Where was his beard if he was so concerned with appearances?

How can the practice be grey when religion is black and white? there is some ambiguity which is why peoples' practises are different. I come back to my point that one man's islam is another mans taliban - no one should force there religious views on others.

Yes you can have censorship, you can ban indecent images - all of this is possible without turning the country into a sharia state.

Extreme depends what you take it Extreme. No I don't say it was was a Good Regime, but better then this or 70s which was west extreme or 80s when whole country was thrown into extreme fight & initial 90s when Pashto vs farsiban fight was on, it was peaceful. And if same kind of help would have given to Talibans like today West is doing for Karzai, thing would have been much better.

beard was not compulsion but modesty was, which slowly slowly left out by our media. That do explain why he did so. He knew what kind of common people we have. In last line you spoken for censorship, but here you are against censorship lol.. contradicting statements. anyhow nevermind

Gray really don't means some confusion, gray means other colors, like how malki's pray is different from hanafi, or hamballi, but that doesn't means contradiction. While Black n white is prayer, fast, zakat, hijab, kindness.....

Shariah is no special thing, but laws from Quran and there is no confusion on orders like I mentioned before. It is compulsion for Muslims.. FULLSTOP.

All the 9/11 suicide bombers were native Arabs. Most were Saudis.

In Iraq, there are many suicide attacks by Arabs.

india is biggest English speaking country, but that doesn't make them Britishers. or does?

On the contrary , throughout his divine life he got whole hearted support of the west

There is difference between support & need. When they needed they supported, when they saw things going out of hands.... they plant bomb in his plane.

 

[Jf Thunder]

You mean the dude who bombed Mecca?

i think thats him, i am not sure

 

[Vinod2070]

India is biggest English speaking country, but that doesn't make them Britishers. or does?

I thought there was a claim that learning Arabic will stop suicide bombings?

Clearly it is not based on facts.

 

[Jf Thunder]

It's because our Ulema's are too scared to apply logic because the masses (and some backwards mullahs) only understand if things are explicitly stated in the Quran and Sunnah. If wise Ulema try to be 'too clever' they will be rejected.

Unfortunately that is the cycle we are in - and as you can probably tell, it will never let us develop properly.

i doubt that Allah will hold us responsible if we use DNA tests in place of witnesses to identify a rapist seeing as both witnesses and DNA tests accomplish the same things

 

[EasyNow]

Extreme depends what you take it Extreme. No I don't say it was was a Good Regime, but better then this or 70s which was west extreme or 80s when whole country was thrown into extreme fight & initial 90s when Pashto vs farsiban fight was on, it was peaceful. And if same kind of help would have given to Talibans like today West is doing for Karzai, thing would have been much better.

beard was not compulsion but modesty was, which slowly slowly left out by our media. That do explain why he did so. He knew what kind of common people we have. In last line you spoken for censorship, but here you are against censorship lol.. contradicting statements. anyhow nevermind

Gray really don't means some confusion, gray means other colors, like how malki's pray is different from hanafi, or hamballi, but that doesn't means contradiction. While Black n white is prayer, fast, zakat, hijab, kindness.....

Shariah is no special thing, but laws from Quran and there is no confusion on orders like I mentioned before. It is compulsion for Muslims.. FULLSTOP.



india is biggest English speaking country, but that doesn't make them Britishers. or does?


There is difference between support & need. When they needed they supported, when they saw things going out of hands.... they plant bomb in his plane.

I am not speaking for censorship i am simply reminding you that you don't need sharia or Zia-style strong-arming to enforce personal standards. So there is no contradiction i'm afraid.

Yes you are absolutely right that laws from Quran are sacrosanct, but how many specific laws are there in the Quran? The rest are deduced by people - and one should not trust any person to decide their imaan for them.

I don't think the wars you mentioned can be compared to peace time administrators like the taliban. The TTP are the taliban / supported by the Taliban, i don't think its an ideology any reasonable human being wants to live under.

(anyway i must dash, but an interesting discussion nonetheless)

 

[Dubious]

The Zia generation is just growing up now, that is why everyone looks back to him to understand why we are in this position today. Unfortunately, it took decades for everyone to see the actual impact of his policies.

How can we learn from our mistakes if we do not study them? Many people are still talking about Sharia law for Pakistan (whatever that really means), they need to understand that some of the worst things in history have been born out of good intentions.

Learning from the mistakes is fine...But bringing it up as a blame therapy is not fine...What has anyone learned and not done since 1988? Blame Zia and then sit back and breathe! Did it change the situation? Nope!

 

[Fracker]

I thought there was a claim that learning Arabic will stop suicide bombings?

Clearly it is not based on facts.

dear, claim was based on study how terrorism is performed in Pakistan. It is 5 step process.

1) TTP recruite common poor family and offer food to their kids.
2) Kids are then shifted to So Called Madrassa for Islamic Education
3) They given quran, and days n night they only read Quran... All the external contacts are removed. They read quran, but don't understand it. (Here if they can read what's allowed in Islam, then they can stop)
4) Then a kid is selected to perform the suicide bombing, and been separate from others. They are being told that, iman is based on Niyyah, and if their niyyah is good they will go to Jannah. And Kaffir needs to be killed. (If they know Arabic, they can ready suicide is haram in Islam, and for Kaffirs nothing is written to kill them)
5) Last process they normally given drugs to concentrate more on the operation. If they know Arabic they will know drugs is not allowed.

PS: This all is written in the light that these kids perform this suicide bombing in the name of Islam, so don't give me this bullcrap that why Muslim still use drugs, or muslims do perform suicide etc.

I am not speaking for censorship i am simply reminding you that you don't need sharia or Zia-style strong-arming to enforce personal standards. So there is no contradiction i'm afraid.

Yes you are absolutely right that laws from Quran are sacrosanct, but how many specific laws are there in the Quran? The rest are deduced by people - and one should not trust any person to decide their imaan for them.

I don't think the wars you mentioned can be compared to peace time administrators like the taliban. The TTP are the taliban / supported by the Taliban, i don't think its an ideology any reasonable human being wants to live under.

(anyway i must dash, but an interesting discussion nonetheless)

Well, this is censorship as per shariah or zia's shariah whatever you call it.. You are bringing up the media as per allowed boundaries.

Yes Iman can't be judge by a person. Only Allah knows the level of Iman.

Taliban don't support TTP, this has been proven so many times.. in Mullah Umer's Interview to BBC, in envelopes spreaded in kunar against TTP, attacks on Mullah radio proofs that, and last thing just recent declaration from Mullah Umer also proofs that. There is only known reference is Masoud Tribes who help AT in Afghan war giving shelter to TTP and uzbeks. Other then that, I would say real Taliban did knew about these dummies..

 

[Dubious]

It's because our Ulema's are too scared to apply logic because the masses (and some backwards mullahs) only understand if things are explicitly stated in the Quran and Sunnah. If wise Ulema try to be 'too clever' they will be rejected.

Unfortunately that is the cycle we are in - and as you can probably tell, it will never let us develop properly.

This sounds like what happened when Christianity was on the rise!

Unfortunately we should have beaten that...Because the 1st word in Quran is Iqra: read with understanding

and all over the Quran it asks the reader to ponder....then we also know that Knowledge is very vast and that alot of Muslim (dont care if they were Arab, Turks or Persians) discovered basics and fundements from pondering!

 

[Vinod2070]

dear, claim was based on study how terrorism is performed in Pakistan. It is 5 step process.

1) TTP recruite common poor family and offer food to their kids.
2) Kids are then shifted to So Called Madrassa for Islamic Education
3) They given quran, and days n night they only read Quran... All the external contacts are removed. They read quran, but don't understand it. (Here if they can read what's allowed in Islam, then they can stop)
4) Then a kid is selected to perform the suicide bombing, and been separate from others. They are being told that, iman is based on Niyyah, and if their niyyah is good they will go to Jannah. And Kaffir needs to be killed. (If they know Arabic, they can ready suicide is haram in Islam, and for Kaffirs nothing is written to kill them)
5) Last process they normally given drugs to concentrate more on the operation. If they know Arabic they will know drugs is not allowed.

PS: This all is written in the light that these kids perform this suicide bombing in the name of Islam, so don't give me this bullcrap that why Muslim still use drugs, or muslims do perform suicide etc.

I understand. This fails to explain the very large number of Arab suicide bombers who do it for religious reasons as well.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I like to add one thing, if Arabic becomes our national language, and people start learning Arabic, suicide bombing can also be bring down. People has to go through TTP recuirement process to find our why it's good to understand what you read..

The biggest lie there is.

Arabic speaking world mostly is gutter of the world with few exceptions.

This sounds like what happened when Christianity was on the rise!

Unfortunately we should have beaten that...Because the 1st word in Quran is Iqra: read with understanding

and all over the Quran it asks the reader to ponder....then we also know that Knowledge is very vast and that alot of Muslim (dont care if they were Arab, Turks or Persians) discovered basics and fundements from pondering!

Tell this to TTP, the Mullah Mardoodi and Ayatullahs.

We the inclusivist Pakistanis already know it sister

We already forking know it

No need to continue bringing up Quran this or Quran that in a group that already knows,.

Go teach your lesson to the suicide bombers (would be bombers to be precise).

Thank you

 

[Fracker]

The biggest lie there is.

Arabic speaking world mostly is gutter of the world with few exceptions.

what ever you think about Arabic world is not my concern. But can you explain why you said it's lie? btw for detail knowledge why I said so, go n read my previous post, where I explain exactly what happens in madrassa.

I understand. This fails to explain the very large number of Arab suicide bombers who do it for religious reasons as well.

Dear, Can you stick to the topic.. Here we are talking about Pakistan, recruitment in Pakistan, when it comes to that part then we have to analyze there area for which I might need to study before even commenting.

 

[Sugarcane]

For example I came to know that in school book History starts from Muslim invasion without referring the cultural heritage of 5000 years. No reference of the great Gandhar era when Pakistan/Afghanistan showed path to whole India in the area of Art and Culture . It was also taught that all Hindus are bad and they are the reason of all problems/suffering of Muslim ( please correct me if wrong).

Now if a boy learned those in his school days in 1985, he is now a middle aged teacher in a school. How he will teach anything different. It is extremely difficult to unlearn even if you want.

It was Ayub's era when Govt. of Pakistan introduced the standard textbooks - and curriculum is more and less same even now.

 

[Vinod2070]

Dear, Can you stick to the topic.. Here we are talking about Pakistan, recruitment in Pakistan, when it comes to that part then we have to analyze there area for which I might need to study before even commenting.

Friend, it is just trying to question the premise behind your solution.

I think it is no solution because it is not lack of Arabic knowledge that causes the phenomenon of religiously motivated suicide bombers. Even if they were taught Arabic, they can still be motivated the same way the Arabs are.