Saddam Hussein
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your post is like saying europe is bad, you need to be more specific or there's nothing to talk about
Arabs have released an anti-Turkish TV series
- Thread starter GlobalMillitary96
- Start date
your post is like saying europe is bad, you need to be more specific or there's nothing to talk about
Timur
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whats more specific than putting saudis in the middle of my post.. ?
AmschelHonestvig
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Following up some strange claims by Turkish historians,
People seem to have black and white views of dynastic rule - Sauds, Ottomans, greeks, Romans, persians, Safavids, assyrians, Saasani, Pharonic, etc and many others in between,
It sems these views are Taken by people with less information and more emotion, clouds impartiality.
An impression of Turkey is that it is in a general a centre-right leaning electorate,
1. deep sentiments/sympathy for religious princples/figures and
2. Defence - armed forces.
3. Preference for larger element of free market economy as opposed to socdialism.
*not necesarily by practive of religion but in maintinang it's relevance and honour in key rites of passage,
In many ways thse factors makes its current circumstaces in common with Britain, Poland, Russia, Israel, KSA, USA and Pakistan, to name but a few- as opposed to states like France and Netherlands, Iran, venezuela
This explains its natural selection in beauracry's foreign outlook, and those of its neighbours/diplomacy-defence partners.
(not always the phantom media wife of the arab street but the behind the scnes real mistress it gets to buiness with)
KSA and turkey were very strong allies during 1970s, KSA bankrolled Turkey during the North Cyprus embargo, and accorgin to rumour the Saudi clergy were also instrumental to facilitate the escape of Turkish PM Erbakan from the gallows at last call.
Turkey and Israel have alot of fence mending to do as well - outside of the arab-israeli context, the current policy has forced Israel to deal with greece and cyprus ~ a non kosher and rather than non-traditional ally than Turkey, NATO's second largest army, a deal done in spite with greece and cyprus rather than natural bond.
Turkish- Israeli defence ties are a natural bond; due to russian intereferece in syria and french fudging in Lebanon - perhaps it can go back to pre-2008 better relations, its definately hurting turkey and also israel.
(Pakistan and Israel could be too- requires a more out of the box solution but its possible both nations are great at creative solutions against the odds)
Turkey May do well with a new strong-centre right party which avoids the mistakes of the Fanatic Kemalist and Fanatic Religious Apk'ists
The iron Lady Aksener's party has potential, although if its not going to be a re-cycle bin for washed out ultra-nationalist and Kemalists,shes tried to mend fences with Kurds, although the HDP is not a monolithic representative of Kurds, who despite trumps tweets are not a monolithic group
Although having said that , just like in Israel its either pick incompetent A, B, or C and both Ergoden and Netenyahu seem like the least of the worst lot, both done trmendouly well in econonmy, defence and allowing religious concessions ( imams in turkey and, Haredims exemptions is israel), the alternatives to these individual charsimatic populist leaders whi can deliver is very few,
The nearest competent rival to Ergoden, a charismatic Leader of the centre-right Idealists Youth/Grand Union Party was killed in a sabotaged Helicopter crash in 2009 under his watch, his police and whitewash - but he has not put out the report - yet he troll the Saudis daily about the journalist - the saudis have been very nice back to him when you think about this?
Some People are really lost in a dream world - according to an ukltra-natinoalist Turkish historicans claim referred to earlier - he claimed that the Ottoman Empire lost its legitimacy , accorgding to many others in 1700, and that being Turkish was not absolvement of anything - he compared 'Timurlane' to 'Memet the Conqueror.', saiying that blood wasnt definitive measure of competency or loyalty/ turks made mstake of taking arabs for granted as conquered people and tried to Turkify them (current APK Party Policy)
----------------
The most succesful Turkish empire seems to be around the (Slave) Mamluke Turks, like Bahri, Ghaznivids, Baibars, Saladin, when they were more inclusive, more reltive justice and less fanatical, and less fantasy, less mythical based practitioners of practical religion, charity mjustice etc.
These above empires were known to be very good to Israelites, and other minorities -as it seems their rulers were once taken in by mijorites of the oppositin ethnicity as prsioners of war and educated skilled in trade of warriorship and freed, so they kept this merfciful approach.
Even many secular nationlist Turks - Cite the Orkhon inscription claims original Turks were ultimately monothetisic, so it is no suprise that tribes such as Khazars chose between Judaism, Islam or christianity, and likewise the Oghuz branches of Turks did the same.
Ataturk reforms was it seems a Plan B set up by the Deep security Establishment of the Ottomans; set up new government in Ankara and follow the Japanese Meiji revolution type reforms, if it was any of the other Pasahas who succesded in this plan they would have also assumed the role of ATATURK,
Mustafa Kemal timed it early and was the first to delare and start the operation - he wasnt its mastermind. ( sorry to burst you bubble Kemalists)
It seems this plan was known to a few generals of the Ottoman Secret Service and the level of Turkish Nationlism Secularism would be tailored according to the
But Even if a religious conservative like the Celiph's son in law Enver Pasha was to come to power the laws and European identity of Turkey would be the exact same, although probably not as disciminatory to religion as Mustafa Kemal like tryin to Trukify rites of pasage like the funeral prayer or call to prayer - but yet not as free as today either.
Turkish nationalism was seen to be more faced to Europe and East to Societ Union where Turkestan/stan Repubics were under Soviet subjugation - and to avoid Subversion from Arab republics.
(*Saudi Arabia is the only major Middle Eastern Arab Country not to have the flag of Lawrences Arab Revolt, (the other was Gaddafi's Libya - plain green flag.), in fact they used the red ottoman flag evan after coming to power with religious Moslem verision of the Shema, and then it became green - the Arab revolt was a Secular Racialist-pan Arabist movement - Saudi oppose racial supremacy this on Religious grounds, but embrace bedouin arab cultural identity.)
Hence why KSA becam naturally ally for USA and Turkey at the time / whilst UK became natural ally of Arab Nationalist Gulf states UAE, Oman, and the like.
(Both powers wanted Oil - US got the better deal since KSA resented Churchill/arab revolt, not a jewish conspiracy - ON the ship US made 2 offers to KSA,
1. OIL | 2. Israel, KSA bitterly rejected US offer for recognising Israel -its in white house correspondence to the Saudis... however the new president did #2 since USSR recongnised Israel first - but the sads have been smart to realise Israel is here to Stay and brings value to the middle east (after loosing 4 very costly wars abnd being betrayed by the other arab states along the way )
----------------------------------------
SAUDI DRAMA :
Whats wrong with a harmelss Saudi Drama on the account of the fact the Turkish series regularly do the same - instead of projecting negative about Arabs aimed at Saudis.
The Saudi drama shows a historcal adaptation Turks killing Turks - whats new there, really like how the Saudis put the Mamluk/Kurdish CCC Flag to troll the Nationalist Turks - think its a necessary check to the APK movement?
The interesting points raised so far lets look at Dirilis Ertugrul Series:
1. The popular turkish histrory series does not include any promient Kurdish figures at all in signifance roles.
2. It completely ignores the Arab Origins /role of arabs and other non-Turks in the Ottoman Empire.
3. It has scenes in there, Falsifies which is really provoking the Arabs.
They purposefully try to use shiite leaning celebrations to taunt to the saudis and other arabs.
[In Osman series edebali is actually from the same Tamim tribe as BenWahab; so from a European perspective old wine new label..]
The state of the Ottoman Empire since 1700 especially since the face of Balkan rebellions was very weak, the attempts to Euuropeanise and reofrm were last ditch attempts survival mode for the Ottomans to try and survive, this isurrection especially from co-relgiionsists in the balnkans like today's Bosnia and Albania, and then Egypt.
The Sauds, Hashemites Egyptians Governor and Nejdi Rashids were in a powerplay in which the ottomans became collateral damage, and British were usefull sources of money and weapons - none of these grops actually preferred to be colonised by the british - simply wanted their weapons and money !
[ it wasnt long ago that a famous thing happend:
>Qatar wanted to add Indain Union to the grand Moslem arab League (OIC-ICO?) group and make it the head at Pakistanians expense, Turkey supoported Qatars move, Ergoden was the then turkish PM.
> The then Charismatic Pakistanian Dictator was going to walk off and leave ( accoriding to rumour for home, washington or Tel aviv) ... at which points the Qataris and Turks backed down.]
------------------------------
The Kurds fit in to this ionterestringly as they were the most favourabley patronised Ottoman group - but Ottoman europeanisation forced them to loose tribal supremacy over other non-moslem non-Turkish/Arab/Kurdish tribes they could collect taxes fom like Armenians, etc,
( a succesful small switzertland type Kurdistan in Iraq could actually work like azerbaijan does with Turks to stem Kurdish Insurgency - if it was managed well and it would not necesarily be a thorn for Turks but a switzerland as neighbour- Kurds seem to be very favourable for a Free Kashmir (despite huge Indian Union influnence in Kurdish media/military advisors) which is interesting since Pakistanians play butter and jame with both Turks and Kurds.. ?anyway digression...back to topic)
So the Kurds who had given up war for Intellectual pursuits were once again forced to take up arms - and they did so - thinking that they were protecting their regions from Europeanistaion not Turkification as is claimed, and from resurgent Iranian/Russian dominace coming from the east.
(* AKP of Ergoden stands for the : All Kurdish party - most of his support is Conservative kurds from the anatolian heartlands, some leftists Socialist and alevi prefer CHP, and mixed hertiage Armenian lenaing Kurds, leftists prefer HDP, from the avaiable research and polls there are... right wing are mixed between MHP and IYI)
One example is the 1856 Law of Homosexuality - the first Eurpean country to embtace this law was Ottoman empire - With a stamped seal of legitimacy from no less than the Grand Celiph of Istanbul, the Pope of the Turks/Arabs !!
Similarly, and now to break the glass mirage of some people on this website the Soldiers of General Allenby who shot at the Grand Celiph's Ottoman troops in Jerusalem 1919 were in fact the 55 Punjab reguiment ( todays successor is mostly Pakistan Army) Mostly Moslem troops, from the Frontier and Punjab !
Araturk was loosing commander in these Transjordan/Syrian Israel battles before anyone tries to rattle off how great he was, although he was a really charismatic Statesman pretty much like Ergoden, who isnt as messianic religious savious as his media PR would have you believe, but actually more Ataturk pragmatically in practice,
In the Third Reich there were a signigficant number of Jews, who sided with third Reich and massacred 8 million other Jews - so to look at history in simplistic terms is an insult to ones own inteliigence than anything else.
--------------------------------
So hiroty can be oversimplified, espeically anti-Saudi season
- Erdogan sits on a golden throne whilst his country owes Billions of dollars in Loans
-but Saudis have billions of dollars cash yet they cannot buy durable goods which wont rot or break to outlast the oil boom.
its likwe the poor man taking a loan for golden toilet but complaining the rich man has it and he deserves the rich mans money to have a golden toilet too! **Turks nknow exactly whhat news point im talking on.
There is a double standard which stinks of individual jealousy and the blamed on a particular people after the fish for a race or boogeyman top project insecurites about wealth on -
In roman catholic Europe, [long before the rothchilds and rockefellrs,] they did this lot to Jews for Millenia - its called anti-semitism; where even a household who cannot manage its own simple ample income of finances blames the poor Jew next door who out of good nature shares his bread as Tzedek and Tikkun Olam.
I thinks its game on to the Saudis - hopefully it will force the turks to become more inclusive in their Dramas of the positive roles of others, most dynasty neded other foreigners and ther were more trustable (ie less like to treason due to being known outsider than advorsos who were given proment posioins who were actually relations with feelings of entitlement, wronged and waiting for coup opportunity.)
Finally i think the turks bit off more than they can chew in syria - they had a chance for peace 9 months in but they chose to go for war - their idea for a North Syria (pro-western/Turkish,Saudi, qatar israel, kurds)/South Syria (socialist, shite,iranian block) was too late in the day - which would have actually wokred better for all of the Middle East - they had a natural Turkmen, pro-Turkey Kurdish tribes and
Indtead they looked to suck up all of Syria, bad idea - now he has gospodin Putin snuffing up his underwear..
----------------------------
History suggests that the turks should not think to go past Aleppo, otherwise the borders become indefensible, for Israel it can live with this as it would be a good counter balance to Iran in Medium term, and technological progressa dn realpolitik would secure Turkish- Israel relations.
A similar misjudgement of arabs by the turks mistake was made in Ottoman times ( according to that same historian) The Ottoman tried to Impose upon the arabs the Turkish language ( mostly corruptedbyzantiuma dn Persian terms until ataturk language reforms - when he brought back turkish words but also invented some of his own raki inspired non existant turkish words !!!)
The arabs were not conquered they welcomes the Turks- the Turks treated the arab lands like the Roman, Balkan and Byzantine lands; since 1947 Israel made the same mistake until Moshe Dayan
What is often forgotten in Israeli circles is that the cananite /resident transjordan arab tribes actually invited many many Jews to come and settle with them out of compassion and sympathy during the holocaust - Cousin come home, -
The similarity of kin is ways many overlap a significant number of Pakistani/Indian Punjabi Muslims is noticed side with Sikh over co-religionist in other places say, or Indian gunjarati muslims sympathise side with Indian hindus over
The same way a Turk sees a Turkish Kurd as closer than a Turkmen from say Afghanistan.
If the turks continue to forget this lesson and portray Arabs in the same way - then they will be loooking at very bad outcome - anyways its aplus for Saudi Arabia - since pretty women and men on a screen and increasing freedom will mean less influence in society of child abuse and exploitation.
------------------------------
Pakistan seems to be a conflicted place - it would do better as a unitary state - as its provincial issues keep pushing it all 4 different directions - possible then to have some better relatiouns with both arabs and israelis as the histroy of nationas at corss roads is empty without acnkoledging the contributuio and existens of other cultures.
Whats odd is Pakistan has not recongised any other culture - its pre-bsessed with Indian Union culture despite exiting the Raj in 1947 - its got a pre-occupation with trying to out-indinanise the Indian unioin
[ Pakistanians are really embarassed people when it comes to using their name for Restauraunts as pakistanian cuise, paskitanian movies - they even pass off and call their language Urdu ( very distinct language) as Hindi
have a real cultural gap to bridge - Imran khan is love figure amonght Israeli/Jews but Pakistanian havent shaken off their pagan/indnian image - the armed forces work togheter behind the scenes and diplomats on common interest so people should bridge the cultural divide too - English language historical Pakistanian Drama series?? ]
I saw a documentary by Israeli reasearcher which showed some aincient israelites used to live in Pakistan - eeven some of the tribal people acknowledged this - yet i think there seems to be cultural divide either side of the indus - east of the indua they prefer veduic culture and on the west they prefer Arabi/semetic and some persian influecnes. dotted with odd reference to greeks. ???
It would be really nice to see a similar drama in english of Pakistani origin in Israel (sure you can fit in an israelite jewish doctor, lawyer or businessman in there somewhere !!)
-----------------------------
Then you wouldnt have to argue over Ergodens skills as Shakespeare.. or Saudis as scriptwirters?
Any takers ?
People seem to have black and white views of dynastic rule - Sauds, Ottomans, greeks, Romans, persians, Safavids, assyrians, Saasani, Pharonic, etc and many others in between,
It sems these views are Taken by people with less information and more emotion, clouds impartiality.
An impression of Turkey is that it is in a general a centre-right leaning electorate,
1. deep sentiments/sympathy for religious princples/figures and
2. Defence - armed forces.
3. Preference for larger element of free market economy as opposed to socdialism.
*not necesarily by practive of religion but in maintinang it's relevance and honour in key rites of passage,
In many ways thse factors makes its current circumstaces in common with Britain, Poland, Russia, Israel, KSA, USA and Pakistan, to name but a few- as opposed to states like France and Netherlands, Iran, venezuela
This explains its natural selection in beauracry's foreign outlook, and those of its neighbours/diplomacy-defence partners.
(not always the phantom media wife of the arab street but the behind the scnes real mistress it gets to buiness with)
KSA and turkey were very strong allies during 1970s, KSA bankrolled Turkey during the North Cyprus embargo, and accorgin to rumour the Saudi clergy were also instrumental to facilitate the escape of Turkish PM Erbakan from the gallows at last call.
Turkey and Israel have alot of fence mending to do as well - outside of the arab-israeli context, the current policy has forced Israel to deal with greece and cyprus ~ a non kosher and rather than non-traditional ally than Turkey, NATO's second largest army, a deal done in spite with greece and cyprus rather than natural bond.
Turkish- Israeli defence ties are a natural bond; due to russian intereferece in syria and french fudging in Lebanon - perhaps it can go back to pre-2008 better relations, its definately hurting turkey and also israel.
(Pakistan and Israel could be too- requires a more out of the box solution but its possible both nations are great at creative solutions against the odds)
Turkey May do well with a new strong-centre right party which avoids the mistakes of the Fanatic Kemalist and Fanatic Religious Apk'ists
The iron Lady Aksener's party has potential, although if its not going to be a re-cycle bin for washed out ultra-nationalist and Kemalists,shes tried to mend fences with Kurds, although the HDP is not a monolithic representative of Kurds, who despite trumps tweets are not a monolithic group
Although having said that , just like in Israel its either pick incompetent A, B, or C and both Ergoden and Netenyahu seem like the least of the worst lot, both done trmendouly well in econonmy, defence and allowing religious concessions ( imams in turkey and, Haredims exemptions is israel), the alternatives to these individual charsimatic populist leaders whi can deliver is very few,
The nearest competent rival to Ergoden, a charismatic Leader of the centre-right Idealists Youth/Grand Union Party was killed in a sabotaged Helicopter crash in 2009 under his watch, his police and whitewash - but he has not put out the report - yet he troll the Saudis daily about the journalist - the saudis have been very nice back to him when you think about this?
Some People are really lost in a dream world - according to an ukltra-natinoalist Turkish historicans claim referred to earlier - he claimed that the Ottoman Empire lost its legitimacy , accorgding to many others in 1700, and that being Turkish was not absolvement of anything - he compared 'Timurlane' to 'Memet the Conqueror.', saiying that blood wasnt definitive measure of competency or loyalty/ turks made mstake of taking arabs for granted as conquered people and tried to Turkify them (current APK Party Policy)
----------------
The most succesful Turkish empire seems to be around the (Slave) Mamluke Turks, like Bahri, Ghaznivids, Baibars, Saladin, when they were more inclusive, more reltive justice and less fanatical, and less fantasy, less mythical based practitioners of practical religion, charity mjustice etc.
These above empires were known to be very good to Israelites, and other minorities -as it seems their rulers were once taken in by mijorites of the oppositin ethnicity as prsioners of war and educated skilled in trade of warriorship and freed, so they kept this merfciful approach.
Even many secular nationlist Turks - Cite the Orkhon inscription claims original Turks were ultimately monothetisic, so it is no suprise that tribes such as Khazars chose between Judaism, Islam or christianity, and likewise the Oghuz branches of Turks did the same.
Ataturk reforms was it seems a Plan B set up by the Deep security Establishment of the Ottomans; set up new government in Ankara and follow the Japanese Meiji revolution type reforms, if it was any of the other Pasahas who succesded in this plan they would have also assumed the role of ATATURK,
Mustafa Kemal timed it early and was the first to delare and start the operation - he wasnt its mastermind. ( sorry to burst you bubble Kemalists)
It seems this plan was known to a few generals of the Ottoman Secret Service and the level of Turkish Nationlism Secularism would be tailored according to the
But Even if a religious conservative like the Celiph's son in law Enver Pasha was to come to power the laws and European identity of Turkey would be the exact same, although probably not as disciminatory to religion as Mustafa Kemal like tryin to Trukify rites of pasage like the funeral prayer or call to prayer - but yet not as free as today either.
Turkish nationalism was seen to be more faced to Europe and East to Societ Union where Turkestan/stan Repubics were under Soviet subjugation - and to avoid Subversion from Arab republics.
(*Saudi Arabia is the only major Middle Eastern Arab Country not to have the flag of Lawrences Arab Revolt, (the other was Gaddafi's Libya - plain green flag.), in fact they used the red ottoman flag evan after coming to power with religious Moslem verision of the Shema, and then it became green - the Arab revolt was a Secular Racialist-pan Arabist movement - Saudi oppose racial supremacy this on Religious grounds, but embrace bedouin arab cultural identity.)
Hence why KSA becam naturally ally for USA and Turkey at the time / whilst UK became natural ally of Arab Nationalist Gulf states UAE, Oman, and the like.
(Both powers wanted Oil - US got the better deal since KSA resented Churchill/arab revolt, not a jewish conspiracy - ON the ship US made 2 offers to KSA,
1. OIL | 2. Israel, KSA bitterly rejected US offer for recognising Israel -its in white house correspondence to the Saudis... however the new president did #2 since USSR recongnised Israel first - but the sads have been smart to realise Israel is here to Stay and brings value to the middle east (after loosing 4 very costly wars abnd being betrayed by the other arab states along the way )
----------------------------------------
SAUDI DRAMA :
Whats wrong with a harmelss Saudi Drama on the account of the fact the Turkish series regularly do the same - instead of projecting negative about Arabs aimed at Saudis.
The Saudi drama shows a historcal adaptation Turks killing Turks - whats new there, really like how the Saudis put the Mamluk/Kurdish CCC Flag to troll the Nationalist Turks - think its a necessary check to the APK movement?
The interesting points raised so far lets look at Dirilis Ertugrul Series:
1. The popular turkish histrory series does not include any promient Kurdish figures at all in signifance roles.
2. It completely ignores the Arab Origins /role of arabs and other non-Turks in the Ottoman Empire.
3. It has scenes in there, Falsifies which is really provoking the Arabs.
They purposefully try to use shiite leaning celebrations to taunt to the saudis and other arabs.
[In Osman series edebali is actually from the same Tamim tribe as BenWahab; so from a European perspective old wine new label..]
The state of the Ottoman Empire since 1700 especially since the face of Balkan rebellions was very weak, the attempts to Euuropeanise and reofrm were last ditch attempts survival mode for the Ottomans to try and survive, this isurrection especially from co-relgiionsists in the balnkans like today's Bosnia and Albania, and then Egypt.
The Sauds, Hashemites Egyptians Governor and Nejdi Rashids were in a powerplay in which the ottomans became collateral damage, and British were usefull sources of money and weapons - none of these grops actually preferred to be colonised by the british - simply wanted their weapons and money !
[ it wasnt long ago that a famous thing happend:
>Qatar wanted to add Indain Union to the grand Moslem arab League (OIC-ICO?) group and make it the head at Pakistanians expense, Turkey supoported Qatars move, Ergoden was the then turkish PM.
> The then Charismatic Pakistanian Dictator was going to walk off and leave ( accoriding to rumour for home, washington or Tel aviv) ... at which points the Qataris and Turks backed down.]
------------------------------
The Kurds fit in to this ionterestringly as they were the most favourabley patronised Ottoman group - but Ottoman europeanisation forced them to loose tribal supremacy over other non-moslem non-Turkish/Arab/Kurdish tribes they could collect taxes fom like Armenians, etc,
( a succesful small switzertland type Kurdistan in Iraq could actually work like azerbaijan does with Turks to stem Kurdish Insurgency - if it was managed well and it would not necesarily be a thorn for Turks but a switzerland as neighbour- Kurds seem to be very favourable for a Free Kashmir (despite huge Indian Union influnence in Kurdish media/military advisors) which is interesting since Pakistanians play butter and jame with both Turks and Kurds.. ?anyway digression...back to topic)
So the Kurds who had given up war for Intellectual pursuits were once again forced to take up arms - and they did so - thinking that they were protecting their regions from Europeanistaion not Turkification as is claimed, and from resurgent Iranian/Russian dominace coming from the east.
(* AKP of Ergoden stands for the : All Kurdish party - most of his support is Conservative kurds from the anatolian heartlands, some leftists Socialist and alevi prefer CHP, and mixed hertiage Armenian lenaing Kurds, leftists prefer HDP, from the avaiable research and polls there are... right wing are mixed between MHP and IYI)
One example is the 1856 Law of Homosexuality - the first Eurpean country to embtace this law was Ottoman empire - With a stamped seal of legitimacy from no less than the Grand Celiph of Istanbul, the Pope of the Turks/Arabs !!
Similarly, and now to break the glass mirage of some people on this website the Soldiers of General Allenby who shot at the Grand Celiph's Ottoman troops in Jerusalem 1919 were in fact the 55 Punjab reguiment ( todays successor is mostly Pakistan Army) Mostly Moslem troops, from the Frontier and Punjab !
Araturk was loosing commander in these Transjordan/Syrian Israel battles before anyone tries to rattle off how great he was, although he was a really charismatic Statesman pretty much like Ergoden, who isnt as messianic religious savious as his media PR would have you believe, but actually more Ataturk pragmatically in practice,
In the Third Reich there were a signigficant number of Jews, who sided with third Reich and massacred 8 million other Jews - so to look at history in simplistic terms is an insult to ones own inteliigence than anything else.
--------------------------------
So hiroty can be oversimplified, espeically anti-Saudi season
- Erdogan sits on a golden throne whilst his country owes Billions of dollars in Loans
-but Saudis have billions of dollars cash yet they cannot buy durable goods which wont rot or break to outlast the oil boom.
its likwe the poor man taking a loan for golden toilet but complaining the rich man has it and he deserves the rich mans money to have a golden toilet too! **Turks nknow exactly whhat news point im talking on.
There is a double standard which stinks of individual jealousy and the blamed on a particular people after the fish for a race or boogeyman top project insecurites about wealth on -
In roman catholic Europe, [long before the rothchilds and rockefellrs,] they did this lot to Jews for Millenia - its called anti-semitism; where even a household who cannot manage its own simple ample income of finances blames the poor Jew next door who out of good nature shares his bread as Tzedek and Tikkun Olam.
I thinks its game on to the Saudis - hopefully it will force the turks to become more inclusive in their Dramas of the positive roles of others, most dynasty neded other foreigners and ther were more trustable (ie less like to treason due to being known outsider than advorsos who were given proment posioins who were actually relations with feelings of entitlement, wronged and waiting for coup opportunity.)
Finally i think the turks bit off more than they can chew in syria - they had a chance for peace 9 months in but they chose to go for war - their idea for a North Syria (pro-western/Turkish,Saudi, qatar israel, kurds)/South Syria (socialist, shite,iranian block) was too late in the day - which would have actually wokred better for all of the Middle East - they had a natural Turkmen, pro-Turkey Kurdish tribes and
Indtead they looked to suck up all of Syria, bad idea - now he has gospodin Putin snuffing up his underwear..
----------------------------
History suggests that the turks should not think to go past Aleppo, otherwise the borders become indefensible, for Israel it can live with this as it would be a good counter balance to Iran in Medium term, and technological progressa dn realpolitik would secure Turkish- Israel relations.
A similar misjudgement of arabs by the turks mistake was made in Ottoman times ( according to that same historian) The Ottoman tried to Impose upon the arabs the Turkish language ( mostly corruptedbyzantiuma dn Persian terms until ataturk language reforms - when he brought back turkish words but also invented some of his own raki inspired non existant turkish words !!!)
The arabs were not conquered they welcomes the Turks- the Turks treated the arab lands like the Roman, Balkan and Byzantine lands; since 1947 Israel made the same mistake until Moshe Dayan
What is often forgotten in Israeli circles is that the cananite /resident transjordan arab tribes actually invited many many Jews to come and settle with them out of compassion and sympathy during the holocaust - Cousin come home, -
The similarity of kin is ways many overlap a significant number of Pakistani/Indian Punjabi Muslims is noticed side with Sikh over co-religionist in other places say, or Indian gunjarati muslims sympathise side with Indian hindus over
The same way a Turk sees a Turkish Kurd as closer than a Turkmen from say Afghanistan.
If the turks continue to forget this lesson and portray Arabs in the same way - then they will be loooking at very bad outcome - anyways its aplus for Saudi Arabia - since pretty women and men on a screen and increasing freedom will mean less influence in society of child abuse and exploitation.
------------------------------
Pakistan seems to be a conflicted place - it would do better as a unitary state - as its provincial issues keep pushing it all 4 different directions - possible then to have some better relatiouns with both arabs and israelis as the histroy of nationas at corss roads is empty without acnkoledging the contributuio and existens of other cultures.
Whats odd is Pakistan has not recongised any other culture - its pre-bsessed with Indian Union culture despite exiting the Raj in 1947 - its got a pre-occupation with trying to out-indinanise the Indian unioin
[ Pakistanians are really embarassed people when it comes to using their name for Restauraunts as pakistanian cuise, paskitanian movies - they even pass off and call their language Urdu ( very distinct language) as Hindi
have a real cultural gap to bridge - Imran khan is love figure amonght Israeli/Jews but Pakistanian havent shaken off their pagan/indnian image - the armed forces work togheter behind the scenes and diplomats on common interest so people should bridge the cultural divide too - English language historical Pakistanian Drama series?? ]
I saw a documentary by Israeli reasearcher which showed some aincient israelites used to live in Pakistan - eeven some of the tribal people acknowledged this - yet i think there seems to be cultural divide either side of the indus - east of the indua they prefer veduic culture and on the west they prefer Arabi/semetic and some persian influecnes. dotted with odd reference to greeks. ???
It would be really nice to see a similar drama in english of Pakistani origin in Israel (sure you can fit in an israelite jewish doctor, lawyer or businessman in there somewhere !!)
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Then you wouldnt have to argue over Ergodens skills as Shakespeare.. or Saudis as scriptwirters?
Any takers ?
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Oublious
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AmschelHonestvig
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Friend, which point do you find objectionable, or not understandable or requiring clarity ?
(*all of it is not a sensible answer - then its obvious and realise its the israel, KSA or Kurdistan you are phobic to or intense need for APKliler to defend Qatar, even against its own interests.)
bsruzm
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I was wondering the same. And, what is that provocational title as well? You people never learn...
Oublious
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What is the part you do understand or what is the part you take offence to, deem incorrect :
(Either English is not our first language / or the typos and lenght distract...)
It actually makes more sense for the Saudis to fund an already succesful series like Dirlis or similar - unless they are always the butt end of the jokes, with very clear revisionism going on in the Series.
1. Any Kurdish Characters in the Dirlis /Osman Turkish Series; forget positive or negative ?
The Symbolism of the yellow flag with the three crescents is actually a masterstoke by the Saudis to the Akp - it means both Kurdistan and Mamluke, both clear messages to the AKP that they can also repsond in kind.
1. Baibars was an escaped Uzbek Prince in exile brough up by Ayyubid Kurd,
(*didnt feature in the entire series v Mongols since Baibars was always flanked by his Kurdish Cleric Ben Harrani who was the only cleric brave enough in the moselm world to stand up to the Mongols and edict against them !)
Also, I brought up Erdogans golden toilet - yet when the Saudis have its evil, but when messianic erdogan has it is okay ! (* big sin ) or the Prostitution laws in Turkey where police
It shows ignorance and jealousy against Saudis, who saved your ex PM Erbakan (father of your current robotics defence Industry)
I also brought up the Kashogi case and 10 year old Yazicioglu report ( his mother/widow still wants it !) - or lack of it - who will hold erdogan and his police state accountable for the death of the main opposition leader to Ergoden under his watch as all powerful PM?
My long point in short it Turks criticising Saudis is Pot calling Kettle black.
- self righteousness was not a charecteristic of any succesful nation.
If a Eurpoean nation made the film you couldnt do nothing not even a word of protest - in fact Ergoden kissed the hand of Europrean leaders who wrote poems against the Turkish people, he only seems to get his people exicted against israel and KSA, and last week it was pakistan turns for not turning up to malaysia
Im sure the europeans all have twitter accounts to sent the Lira into Free-fall with...
where he incidentally snubbed his host the malay PM and had dininer in the turkish embassy with the ex-Pm of malaysia - the bitter rival of the host.
I think it would have been better for Turks to include saudis in their projects -
1. Osman series the Sheekh Edebali was from the banu tamim tribe same tribe as BenWahab of the Sauds.
Also the Sauds funded the Turkish ecnonmy against sanctions during the Cyprus Invasion - so the turks should acknoeldge this in their films instead of having a howling wolfdog everywhere - and preojects she did the miracle and contuinuing the Euriopean narrative and projecting in films as all Arabs as bandits.
bsruzm
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Hurshit, is that you?
AmschelHonestvig
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He must a crazy new member, me no understand...
Revised version below
had to google that : whatever "Hurshit" it is definately not that
bsruzm
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It's okay, have fun. You seem you are going to get banned
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AmschelHonestvig
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Do you have any answers to the freindly questions (not allegations) ?
Or is the answer
1.There are no Kurds only Mountain turks.
2. Turkey needs no freinds or partnerships with neighbouring states ; Asena's howl will be the savouir to all evils.
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Addtional Easier questions :
1. Why do AKP not take any offence to Indian Union (bollywood or Bullysh**wood) films on TRT and Turkish Tv in general, which repeatedly Glorify the Indian Union and its very Brutual Occupation of Kashmiris, of almost holocaust-eqsue practice and soon to be proportions.
2. Turk Productions on other Turkish Empires do not feature - any mention of the Gaznavid Empire does not pass the censor board due to objections from the Indian Union. Yet it is common history that the seljuks were the traitors of; / or off-shots of the Gaznavids.
(or is it because He, (Emperor Gaznavid) had patronised merit and accepted Accomplished Jewish & Israelite into his court even as arbitrators )
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Why Turks got into a psycholiogical fit over Saudis but do not Object to :
1. Kurds being depiccted to be shown as Smugglers and Criminals in most modern dramas ( or clowns)
2. Arabs being shown as bandits and regious fanatics...in continuation of Hollywood and Bollywood.
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In Eurpoe it is common place for Turks to be portayed as Barbarian Heathen , the second class citizen; and this is very digestable to Turks.
**Yet when an Arab looks at History - they are castigated - Please be reminded that the ottoman rule has ended.
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The true reason (it seems) the Kurds and Arabs are never shown positively is because within Turkey there is unfortunately cultural level a sub-consciuous popular demand and unhealthy apetite for them to be shown negatively.
Blonde haired blue eyed turk ( like Kemal) hero - arab looking Kurd, Afgan or Arab villain... Yet in the presence of Euriopeans you are all the same - Villains !
>And since this is a pakistnians forum turkish tv Never shows their films, only broadcasts disgusting Indian Union ones
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- looks like Euoprean/Qatari spell over flying Monkeys (Wizard of Oz)has taken Turkey in to do its bidding ...
or have i missed a trick ??
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