Arab pressure working against Hindu radicals?

[Joe Shearer]

Checks and balances were poor in India to begin with, for a variety of reasons. Under this government, every institution has been compromised. The upright were transferred out or dismissed, and lackeys were installed.

The first part is quite unfair; we were in reasonable shape for a country of our antecedents.

As far as the second part is concerned, it remains to be seen if this process is irreversible. You seem to have a fixed view. Allow me the luxury of seeking more evidence.

A Muslim can't be as nuanced as you since the current party running the state for a fixed period of time is out to get them for votes and power.

If everybody observing the situation was as hysterical as you, the conclusions for the onlooker would be quite easy. Is it your conclusion that the Muslims are today cannon-fodder to the entirety of their population?

LOL you've been feeding Indian Muslims this talk for decades now and they walked right into multiple riots and pogroms. Don't tell me that this position is bad for me.

Why not? It certainly seems so from where we are standing. As I said before, it is for you to set your moral compass.

 

[prashantazazel]

Whatever land India claims, you will find in the subcontinent itself. We don't bother with far away lands.

 

[Hiptullha]

If everybody observing the situation was as hysterical as you,

Haha, yes I'm being hysterical. I wish more Indian Muslims were as hysterical as me. Imagine if the Muslim in Gujarat were hysterical enough to believe that the state government might one day turn on them and start giving out their addresses to rioters. Maybe they might have stockpiled some arms and less of them would have died or lost their property.

 

[xeuss]

Haha, yes I'm being hysterical. I wish more Indian Muslims were as hysterical as me. Imagine if the Muslim in Gujarat were hysterical enough to believe that the state government might one day turn on them and start giving out their addresses to rioters. Maybe they might have stockpiled some arms and less of them would have died or lost their property.

@Joe Shearer

You must admit that you are looking at events from your privileged position in society. This is the majoritarian privilege that we, Muslims in India, do not have the luxury of.

 

[SrNair]

They will believe whatever they want to believe. Facts are as you stated.

What Arab pressure anyway, a few tweets from some low level Arabs means nothing. OIC has been howling about Kashmir for decades and no one gave a damn here. Why would anyone do now. Communal harmony is good for India and it's good that right wing politicians and journalists are realising that.

All of rightwing parties and Hindus only give ear to the words of PM and RSS .
They dont care what other parasites like Hindu MahaSabha ,VHP says in current condition.

The irresponsible act of TJ really made most of Indians angry .If they change their ways to more modern , its better.

And Arabs ,look the tweets of those Arab individuals now .
All of the time India friend friend.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

All of rightwing parties and Hindus only give ear to the words of PM and RSS .
They dont care what other parasites like Hindu MahaSabha ,VHP says in current condition.

The irresponsible act of TJ really made most of Indians angry .If they change their ways to more modern , its better.

And Arabs ,look the tweets of those Arab individuals now .
All of the time India friend friend.

Yeah and the members here are conveniently ignoring their latest tweets.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Haha, yes I'm being hysterical. I wish more Indian Muslims were as hysterical as me. Imagine if the Muslim in Gujarat were hysterical enough to believe that the state government might one day turn on them and start giving out their addresses to rioters. Maybe they might have stockpiled some arms and less of them would have died or lost their property.

Perhaps. Do you want me to join the Hindutva-vadis, and start reciting the massacres of Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and Christians that they bring out to justify their hate today? You probably do, but for me, my moral compass is set. I hated those who had done the damnable things you mention above from the day they did it, and have opposed them as best as I could. My conscience is clear.

Just as I will never consciously build up hate within myself for those long-past murders that the Hindutva-vadi dwells on with such loving detail to each bloody act, I will never stop from urging you to move away from condemning all Hindus, all Indians for the actions of some. It is for you to clear your conscience. I will not, cannot, must not do it or do anything more than draw your attention to this.

@Joe Shearer

You must admit that you are looking at events from your privileged position in society. This is the majoritarian privilege that we, Muslims in India, do not have the luxury of.

I do not deny that first. But I draw your own attention to the fact that there is nothing, no rock-like entity called Muslims in India. There are those who occupy and will always occupy privileged positions in society. There are those those who have faced oppression and remember that their strongest allies and supporters came from the majority, from within the community that sought to oppress them. There are those, finally, who have given up, and fallen into the easy attitudes and mental positions of the victim, and will do nothing to help their community or those from other communities, but spend their time beating their breasts and wailing.

Can I, from my privileged position, choose for them? Or for my co-religionists, however they might be defined? Does being marked out for my privileged position make any difference in this situation, other than to try to isolate me and seek to drown my voice?

You must do what you feel is right. May Providence give you the patience and wisdom to see what is right.

 

[Hiptullha]

Do you want me to join the Hindutva-vadis, and start reciting the massacres of Hindus

No, I don't want to you to start reciting Hindu grievances. I already know your countrymen have problems with Love Jihad and Adhaan.

justify their hate today?

Where did I say anything about justifying hate? I just said Indian Muslims should be wary about their own state and government because it's controlled by people who've used it to kill them in the past.

Just as I will never consciously build up hate within myself for those long-past murders that the Hindutva-vadi dwells on with such loving detail to each bloody act

It says a lot about you when you think that I'm trying to build up hate by mentioning the Gujarat riots. What did you think about the anti-CAA protestors? Did you think they were being too problematic and Islamist when they were chanting the Shahada during their demonstrations?

 

[Joe Shearer]

No, I don't want to you to start reciting Hindu grievances. I already know your countrymen have problems with Love Jihad and Adhaan.

Not my countrymen. Only those who believe in these illusory differences created by puppet-masters, and choose to be puppets. Here is the core of my objections to your posts.

Where did I say anything about justifying hate? I just said Indian Muslims should be wary about their own state and government because it's controlled by people who've used it to kill them in the past.

You will not like this, but this is the line used by Hindutva-vadis, and those horrible creatures whose incendiary speeches during the Delhi elections led to their puppet rabble starting the Delhi riots.

It says a lot about you when you think that I'm trying to build up hate by mentioning the Gujarat riots.

I certainly hope it does. I stand for silencing both choruses of hatred, not one, not the other, but both.

What did you think about the anti-CAA protestors? Did you think they were being too problematic and Islamist when they were chanting the Shahada during their demonstrations?

I strongly supported, and strongly support the anti-CAA protestors. However, by introducing the Shahada into their slogans, they managed to confuse and to put off a lot of sympathetic people. While I personally understand the pent-up feelings that caused this, not everyone did.

 

[xeuss]

I do not deny that first. But I draw your own attention to the fact that there is nothing, no rock-like entity called Muslims in India. There are those who occupy and will always occupy privileged positions in society. There are those those who have faced oppression and remember that their strongest allies and supporters came from the majority, from within the community that sought to oppress them. There are those, finally, who have given up, and fallen into the easy attitudes and mental positions of the victim, and will do nothing to help their community or those from other communities, but spend their time beating their breasts and wailing.

Can I, from my privileged position, choose for them? Or for my co-religionists, however they might be defined? Does being marked out for my privileged position make any difference in this situation, other than to try to isolate me and seek to drown my voice?

You must do what you feel is right. May Providence give you the patience and wisdom to see what is right.

You have said a lot of right things, that I cannot but agree with. Your description of Muslims being a non-monolithic entity is certainly welcome on this forum, where often Indian Muslims are regarded as a monolithic single minded entity that seeks the destruction of India. When reality is, most of us are just trying to eke out a meager living and survive, among the hate that is being peppered around.

You and your kind are sadly, a dying breed in India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You have said a lot of right things, that I cannot but agree with. Your description of Muslims being a non-monolithic entity is certainly welcome on this forum, where often Indian Muslims are regarded as a monolithic single minded entity that seeks the destruction of India. When reality is, most of us are just trying to eke out a meager living and survive, among the hate that is being peppered around.

You and your kind are sadly, a dying breed in India.

I sincerely hope you are wrong, and I hope that those who think like me, beyond caste, creed and religion, will thrive and prosper in the future. Meanwhile, I will speak for my Muslim compatriots as long as I can, as much as I can, as I hope to speak for others facing unfair treatment as well.

A very personal comment: we have been discussing the frictions due to religion. What I cannot share is the personal agony that caste differences have caused me, and many millions more. That is far more toxic, far more painful than anything than you can imagine. Before you conclude that this is about personal oppression due to an underprivileged position, that is not it. I come from a privileged position in my society. That was not good enough to protect me. You can imagine what happens to those who do come from underprivileged social positions.

I want to make it clear to those whom I have opposed vehemently on this thread that this opposition is on principle, and is not personal. I have searched my heart, and there is no hatred for those whom I have criticised. Passion, yes, a thousand times yes, we of our race are known to hold deep feelings and to hold back nothing. Hatred, no, a thousand times no, a million times no. @Hiptullha has not been kind to my community; that is due to not having heard an alternative point of view that he can recognise as human and sane and rational. @masterchief_mirza and @xeuss are in reaction; I dread to say of what. What they are saying and writing here is completely contrary to the rationality they have displayed elsewhere, and this is to be brushed aside as the resentment of a moment.

These are transients; nothing lasting and nothing permanent about them. I hold that mankind is essentially good and falls into error, and this is not predicated on their religious beliefs.

To those who are observant, warm good wishes in this month of introspection and reflection; to those of my own community, let us put the best side forward, as others have already started doing. Let those who believe otherwise see us at our best, not, as they have become inured to, our worst.

 

[Nilgiri]

I sincerely hope you are wrong, and I hope that those who think like me, beyond caste, creed and religion, will thrive and prosper in the future. Meanwhile, I will speak for my Muslim compatriots as long as I can, as much as I can, as I hope to speak for others facing unfair treatment as well.

A very personal comment: we have been discussing the frictions due to religion. What I cannot share is the personal agony that caste differences have caused me, and many millions more. That is far more toxic, far more painful than anything than you can imagine. Before you conclude that this is about personal oppression due to an underprivileged position, that is not it. I come from a privileged position in my society. That was not good enough to protect me. You can imagine what happens to those who do come from underprivileged social positions.

I want to make it clear to those whom I have opposed vehemently on this thread that this opposition is on principle, and is not personal. I have searched my heart, and there is no hatred for those whom I have criticised. Passion, yes, a thousand times yes, we of our race are known to hold deep feelings and to hold back nothing. Hatred, no, a thousand times no, a million times no. @Hiptullha has not been kind to my community; that is due to not having heard an alternative point of view that he can recognise as human and sane and rational. @masterchief_mirza and @xeuss are in reaction; I dread to say of what. What they are saying and writing here is completely contrary to the rationality they have displayed elsewhere, and this is to be brushed aside as the resentment of a moment.

These are transients; nothing lasting and nothing permanent about them. I hold that mankind is essentially good and falls into error, and this is not predicated on their religious beliefs.

To those who are observant, warm good wishes in this month of introspection and reflection; to those of my own community, let us put the best side forward, as others have already started doing. Let those who believe otherwise see us at our best, not, as they have become inured to, our worst.

@xeuss if you solidfy your argument like you just did and dont resort to counter identity-politics...you will find more sustained quality support. It is easy to band together in certain mobs here, just because they extend you a temporary venting or purported common cause. You must ascend over those, take it from one that had his fair share of that here and has mostly regrets in hindsight.

You should know nothing is a complete monolith, be it the attacker or the attacked. Such monoliths are just projected as long as they are useful for a few. Please have a read of this thread:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-importance-of-religious-tolerance.663553/

@Joe Shearer I miss some dearly in this forum, maybe more than you can know too:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/brea...y-base-in-kashmir.453108/page-22#post-8763500

 

[Hiptullha]

Not my countrymen.

Yes they are lol, stop being in denial. Not only are they your countrymen, but they have more political power and representation than you.

You will not like this, but this is the line used by Hindutva-vadis, and those horrible creatures whose incendiary speeches during the Delhi elections led to their puppet rabble starting the Delhi riots.

So? When I say it, I'm giving sincere advice to Indian Muslims. When they say it, it's because they're threatening Indian Muslims and warning them about what's going to happen to them. Either way, listening to me/them is more sensible than going along with you and trusting a state which has already been captured.

However, by introducing the Shahada into their slogans, they managed to confuse and to put off a lot of sympathetic people. While I personally understand the pent-up feelings that caused this, not everyone did.

This is what I'm talking about. Even the "sympathetic" Hindus will start getting put off when they hear the shahada and realize that every Indian Muslim isn't a clone of APJ Kalam. These are the people Indian Muslims should entrust their future to.

that is due to not having heard an alternative point of view that he can recognise as human and sane and rational

No, I've heard your kind of viewpoints before. They're just not interesting or realistic to me anymore.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Many Arabs are part of Tableegh. They join from Khaleej and other countries. Most ijtema have Arab translations and separate lectures in Arabic.

When I went to Raiwind, I met many Arabs there sitting and studying Islam under Pakistani and Arab instructors.

In US, many places have mostly Arab Tableegh, since Pakistanis are much less here.

No, I've heard your kind of viewpoints before. They're just not interesting or realistic to me anymore.

Quaid e Azam set the golden standard for us to follow, he properly understood the mindset which was succeeding the British. Hindus were nurtured to rule and lord over minorities, most pitiable for the Muslims, who earned their most potent wrath.

A false history was concocted,, a history where no Muslim ruler could be seen as just and honorable.. each of them were villains and deserved the unbridled hate of the masses. In their secular groups, behind closed doors they revealed their true sectarian selves. Quaid e Azam understood it. The words behind the words.

Today, the brave and honest Pakistani outlook is a threat to this Hindutva menacs, but not only them, to the liberal seculars of Congress too. Both have kept Muslims from achieving self-sufficiency. @xeuss

Why is Pakistan hated so much by both camps? Why was the fear of Pakistan ramped up progressively over 70 plus years? Pakistan represents a clean break from India and Hindu-ness. It is an alternate mindset. Muslims do not have to live under Hindus or other Non-Muslims.

Indeed, it suits a Muslim not to sacrifice his freedom of religion and independence to others. This was the ideology of Allama Iqbal. Muslim must be able to open his wings and soar like an eagle, looking up towards the sky, towards Allah swt.

Even among the hyper-secularists, the anti-Hindutva brigade, we see the oozing Islamophobic mindset. @masterchief_mirza @Hiptullha

Quaid e Azam said it right, "The Hindu is incorrigible." Hindu na kable islah he.

And he was a man who once had been the ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity, under his mentor Ghopalacharya. If he saw this, then it must most certainly be true.

 

[SrNair]

You have said a lot of right things, that I cannot but agree with. Your description of Muslims being a non-monolithic entity is certainly welcome on this forum, where often Indian Muslims are regarded as a monolithic single minded entity that seeks the destruction of India. When reality is, most of us are just trying to eke out a meager living and survive, among the hate that is being peppered around.

You and your kind are sadly, a dying breed in India.

Clamp down the powerful parasites among your community.
Look at the anti CAA protestors,they even managed to book Deepika Padukone to address them.
You mean all this is for free.
How much they spend for this protest?
Why they didnt use that money for welfare of poor people among their community ?
The end result of that protest and slogans was that
more suspicion among non Muslims, majority people .And those who even supported also with draw their support later.

These parasites only want money and political power .When that affects other communities there will be a reaction .The profound rightwing achievements is because of that reaction.
Clampdown them and take care of yourselves .
The entire nation will support you

Yeah and the members here are conveniently ignoring their latest tweets.

Look at the latest , they want medical support from us .
Fact is that angry tweets from the individuals from royal family didnt go well with Indian circles ,even though they are silent.
The moron Indian was wrong and got what he deserve but publicity didnt go well.
They knew it .
That is why this damage control mode