Arab and Muslim supporters of democracy and Israel

[Developereo]

You're in the wrong thread; put it in the correct one and I'm willing to discuss there.

No, It IS the right thread,

Your whole victimhood parade is based on the false conflation of anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism (Israel), and my post is intended to highlight the fact that opposition to Israel is NOT automatically anti-Semitism.

Your title and, especially, post #2 betrays this attempt at deception.

 

[Solomon2]

Apniii baradariii ke loggg hain aaakhir !

Private jokes about me? Isn't that really pathetic?

No, It IS the right thread, Your whole victimhood parade -

I defy you to find me putting on any kind of "victimhood parade" here.

post #2 betrays this attempt at deception.

Discuss.

 

[Developereo]

The argument isn't that Arabs and Muslims need to be pro-Zionists out of concern for Zionists: the argument is that Arabs and Muslims need to be pro-Zionists out of concern for Arabs and Muslims to establish the kind of decent democratic society so many of them yearn for.

True democracy cannot happen without liberalism, and Zionism is antithetical to liberalism since, by definition, it elevates the rights of one group over others.

Notice the contortions Zionists need to go through to preserve the "Jewish" character of Israel while maintaining the fiction of an egalitarian society.

P.S. To give you one example, Israeli law requires all members of the Knesset to affirm that Israel is a Jewish state. Can you imagine the uproar if the Egyptian MB required a similar oath from the Egyptian coptic members?

 

[Developereo]

Discuss.

Your argument rests on a logical fallacy: just because some anti-Israel people are motivated by anti-Semitism doesn't mean that all anti-Israel people are so motivated.

Your claim is that acceptance of Israel is a prerequisite to democracy in the Middle East. I pointed out that, quite to the contrary, to many of us, Israel is no different than other colonial impositions. Democracy requires that people of the Middle East accept their Jewish citizens as equals, but this has nothing to do with accepting Israel.

 

[Solomon2]

Your argument rests on a -

Please don't refer to other people's arguments as "mine". Even if I post an article or video of theirs. One, because I may not agree with them 100%. Two, because it's all-too-easy to loose track of who said what and whose opinion is whose.

 

[Desert Fox]

So you agree with my analysis but don't want to deal with it.

Dealing with extremism will require some political maneuvering. But in the current political set up in Pakistan, there is no hope since the major political parties tow the lines of their foreign masters rather than take their own initiatives. This is especially true in Pakistan. I thought you'd know this already?

Ah, but when you embrace Zionism that solves everything, doesn't it? Everybody is now tolerated. No more politicians squirming to avoid some terrorists while employing others, but politicians vowing and actively working to eliminate militancy as part of the human rights everyone deserves in Pakistan.

So you HAVE to embrace Zionism to eliminate extremism, sectarianism, crime, ethnocentrism, corruption, militancy, etc???

If that was the case then US of A would be heaven on Earth ain't it?

Pakistanis are for sale, yes. Pakistanis are also skilled at not delivering full value. So I don't accept this as an excuse.

This isn't a excuse, it is a fact. I'm not putting the entire blame on foreign entities, but you cannot say that they are not a factor in this mess.

Don't confuse ME with whatever prejudices you have, nor confuse elections with democracy: it isn't democracy if it's one-man-one-vote-but-only-once. Still, by your own admission we can class you in the "anti-democrat" column.

Don't take my words for it, i'm only calling it what the media and news outlets call it. You might not consider it a "democratic" method but it was all a part of G W. B's "Democracy promoting" in the M.E.

I assumed you might hold the same views that majority of Zionists or Zionist influenced media outlets (which is all of them) hold of the Hamas victory in Palestinians elections.

You've already agreed with me that you're no democrat; now you're arguing that it's possible to defeat the fanatics without democracy. What country has that kind of track record, Algeria? Do you realize how much war and death and corruption afterwards you're talking about?

Pakistan, under the "democracy" for the past seven years has seen enough war, death, corruption, sectarianism, militancy, lawlessness, so much so that areas where crime was almost unheard of people no longer venture out anymore even during the day. "Democratic" politicians are inept, incompetent, and only interested in filling their own pockets. Why should they bother to solve the problems of a country which they will flee once their tenure is over?


"Democracy" has so many flaws that i really don't know where to begin, but lets leave that for another thread.

Pakistan has attempted the anti-Zionist yet pro-nationalist route for over seventy years. At what point will you say continued failure become an adequate demonstration?

Really? I can't recall. Secondly, why does Pakistani Nationalism have to be Anti-Zionism or even pro-Zionism?

Why should we choose a side?

Private jokes about me? Isn't that really pathetic?

Translation of what he said: They are your kindred after all.

Baradari, derived from the Persian word Baradar, means Brother, or kin.

 

[Developereo]

Private jokes about me? Isn't that really pathetic?

Just to clarify, his comment only meant that Jews and Muslims are people of the same "neighborhood", meaning we are the same peoples.

 

[Solomon2]

...in Pakistan, there is no hope since the major political parties tow the lines of their foreign masters rather than take their own initiatives. This is especially true in Pakistan. I thought you'd know this already?

Your priority seems to be how to profit from the current system rather than change and improve it.

So you HAVE to embrace Zionism to eliminate extremism, sectarianism, crime, ethnocentrism, corruption, militancy, etc???

Every country has problems with crimes like theft, murder, fraud, etc. Judaism does, however, put a premium on impartial justice over law-and-order and that's reflected in both Israel's laws and America's.

As for the other items listed, what country has succeeded in these things WITHOUT embracing Zionism? I can't think of one. But you have a good point in that I'm pretty focused and to a hammer everything looks like a nail.

If that was the case then US of A would be heaven on Earth ain't it?

I'm not putting the entire blame on foreign entities, but you cannot say that they are not a factor in this mess.

I know the Gulf Arabs have a large hand in crafting Pakistan's education agenda. I also know that it's Pakistanis who make the decisions and thus have the prime moral responsibility for negative consequences, not foreigners: no one forces you to sell your souls for material gain.

I assumed you might hold the same views that majority of Zionists or Zionist influenced media outlets (which is all of them) hold -

You already know that your schools are strongly influenced by foreigners and that Pakistanis lovingly accept bribes. Why haven't you figured out yet that these same foreigners are often willing to pay for the coverage they want, adding a little extra for the reporter or columnist to blame "Zionists" to provide themselves with cover?

Pakistan, under the "democracy" for the past seven years has seen enough war, death, corruption, sectarianism, militancy, lawlessness, so much so that areas where crime was almost unheard of people no longer venture out anymore even during the day. "Democratic" politicians are inept, incompetent, and only interested in filling their own pockets. Why should they bother to solve the problems of a country which they will flee once their tenure is over?

The solution to that is new leaders - or, perhaps, old leaders with sharply different agendas and supporters.

Really? I can't recall. Secondly, why does Pakistani Nationalism have to be Anti-Zionism or even pro-Zionism?

Anti-Zionism has been a foundation for Pakistan's leaders since before partition, back when Indian Muslims accepted the blandishments of the Arabs and decided to adopt anti-Zionism back in the 1920s. At that moment religious bigotry was elevated over civil rights - and so the long decay began.

Translation of what he said: They are your kindred after all.

Funny!

 

[Solomon2]

If that was the case then US of A would be heaven on Earth ain't it?

For Pakistanis without YouTube, "Heaven is a Place on Earth" lyrics:

Oh, baby do you know what that's worth?
Oh, Heaven is a place on Earth.
They say in Heaven, love comes first
We'll make Heaven a place on Earth
Oh, Heaven is a place on Earth

When the night falls down,
I wait for you, and to come around
And the world's alive
With the sound of kids on the street outside
When you walk into the room
You pull me close and we start to move
And we're spinnin' with the stars above
And you lift me up
In the wave of love

Oh, baby do you know what that's worth?
Oh Heaven is a place on Earth
They say in Heaven, love comes first
We'll make Heaven a place on Earth
Oh, Heavne is a place on Earth

When I feel alone, I reach for you and to bring me home
When I'm lost at sea
I hear your voice, and it carries me
In this world we're just beginning
To understand the miracle of living
Baby, I was afraid before
I'm not afraid, any more

Oh, baby do you know what that's worth?
Oh, Heaven is a place on Earth
The say in Heaven, love comes first
We'll make Heaven a place on earth
Oh, Heaven is a place on Earth

In this world we're just beginning
To understand the miracle of living
Baby I was afraid before
I'm not afraid, any more

Oh, baby do you know what that's worth?
Oh, Heaven is a place on Earth
They say in Heaven, love comes first
We'll make Heaven a place on Earth
Oh, Heaven is a place on Earth ​

Her song describes the life Thomas Jefferson envisioned in the Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness -

 

[Solomon2]

So you HAVE to embrace Zionism to eliminate extremism, sectarianism, crime, ethnocentrism, corruption, militancy, etc???

Now consider this moderator's words:

... I reiterate.. without the right change agents to change the key essence that powers institutional change..there is little other to do than fanciful dreams or plans based on the idea the leadership or good governance will emerge miraculously.

 

[Armstrong]

Private jokes about me? Isn't that really pathetic?

If you can't understand Urdu why presume ? It had nothing to do with you nor were you mentioned in it even in an indirect way; its a private joke between the lad I quoted & myself.

More red herrings. Humane behavior is not about "Humanity" per se. Of course if you work at it you can convince yourself who is right and who is wrong. I know you don't want to spend time on it. But it isn't my society that crafts Friday sermons and then political platforms dedicated to anti-Zionism, is it? And enforcing such platforms involves the same distortions of truth and fact as destroys a society's ability to sustain democratic values - that's my conclusion as well as that of the people I quote here who have lived through it.

Had I believed that you guys weren't using the same platforms, albeit of a different nature, to distort truths & facts I would've supported you but because I think you're as culpable of the same lies, exaggerations, conjectures & half-truths that you accuse the Palestinians of - I don't support either !

At any rate if neither the Arabs nor the Israelis are showing any empathy over my issues (I'm a Kashmiri) I don't see why I should reciprocate otherwise ?

 

[Armstrong]

Just to clarify, his comment only meant that Jews and Muslims are people of the same "neighborhood", meaning we are the same peoples.

Not quite; I meant how one of the origin myths of us Kashmiris & Pukhtoons is that we're One of the Lost Tribes of Israel - Naturally its never been proven & no one's really bothered to prove it anyhow, but @Hyperion & I often joke about with one another on how we should support Israel because Netanyahu might be his or my cousin twice removed !

 

[Battle of Kursk]

The modern state of Israel is a colonial imposition on indigenous peoples.

Opposition to Israel is in the same vein as opposition to British colonial rule, or French colonial rule, or Dutch colonial rule.

It's just that, because the colonialists here happen to be Jewish, they hide behind the anti-Semitism card.

This is lies. This is propaganda.
The Arabs are not the indigenous people of Sammaria and Judea. The Arabs have come into the land of Israel as conquerors and occupiers.
* The Jews had three independent states in this land before the establishment of Israel, the Arabs had ZERO.
* There was always a Jewish population in Israel despite the prosecution by the Greeks, Romans, Crusaders and Muslims.
* The vast majority of Arabs who live in this land immigrated into Israel in the last few centuries, just like the vast majority of the Jews came here in the last few centuries as well. Before that this land has been described as barren.
* Genetically it has been proven in every study that the origin of Ashkenazi ("European") Jews is from the Middle east.
* The Palestinians had no historical heritage earlier than this century, they name is twisted from the Tribal Philistines who were of Greek origin and not Arab, many of whom are described as gingers.
* Colonialism is what the Muslims did to Israel, but since then many centuries have past and we accept your presence and wish to work together for a better future, while many of the Arabs/Muslims choose sadly to nurture hate, which based on lies and propaganda. just like your piece right here.
* Arab countries controlled the West Bank and Gaza for 17 years, they never even considered to give autonomy to the Arabs who lived there (now called Palestinians), not to mention independence neither did the Arabs asked for this, since most of them were descendents of immigrants from Egypt and Jordan anyway.

It saddens me that an intelligent person like yourself chooses to tell lies. Or was the brainwashing really that successful? well that's a reason for sorrow as well.

 

[Developereo]

This is lies. This is propaganda.

There are Israeli historians who claim that the modern Jews in Israel are not descended from the ancient Hebrews of Palestine, but from other regional converts.

Shlomo Sand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Invention of the Jewish People

 

[Pakistanisage]

Whatever mr. zionist.

This Zionist clown @Solomon2 forgets that the total supporters of the Zionist State of Israel are the US, its lackey Canada, The Czech Republic and five tiny islands including names you have never heard of like Palau, Nauru, Panama, Micronesia and Marshall Islands. These are the 8 entities who voted in support for Israel in the General Assembly.


There were no Arab Supporters. Three countries and 5 tiny Islands was all the support State of Israel got, plus its own vote.


Now Solomon was a Wise King but do not confuse the Wisdom of King Solomon with this self deluded and self declared Clown who calls himself Solomon2. This is narcissism at its peak. What a BOZO ?