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Any questions Regarding India

Could it because there were many prophets every one thought concept of god same but later people deviated from it?

Let us return to your question in a moment. Some of the points to be made are interconnected; taking them in sequence might make things simpler all around.
 
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Do the Indians agree with this statement, made by Gene D. Matlock.

Another problem that western scholars have in identifying the Indo-Europeans as Indians is that India was not then and never was a nation. Furthermore, it is not “India.” It is Bharata, and even Bharata is not a nation. Bharata is a collection of nations, just as Europe is a collection of nations, presently held together by the real or perceived threat of Moslem expansionism. Indian scholars have told me that when and if this expansionism ever disappears, the “Bharata Union” will again splinter into many smaller nations.


Abraham = Brahma; Sarah =Saraswati « Hindu focus


The Indians would agree or disagree with a statement if it is made by someone who is widely known and that person's remarks are widely known. Quoting some obscure idiot and asking if "Indians" agree with him or not is quite pointless. Gene D. Matlock seems to be one of those self-taught scholars who has picked up all that he has over the Internet or from TV programmes on this, that and the other subject, or from popularizing books of the History for Dummies model.

May one ask, what is your motive in quoting a stupid blogger, making some very negative statements, and projecting it as a question to be asked? Are you using this opportunity to vent all your pent-up spleen and dislike? Do you understand that repeatedly taking advantage of the freedom to ask questions and using such opportunities to make sly and not so sly digs just causes ill will, and adds nothing to what you know?

Please disregard ALL that you have read of the blogger Matlock.
 
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I have a question regrading Indians:

Why harbour soo much hate for Pakistan? Why not let go and move on!

At 1 point you are fighting about IVC, at 1 point how Pakistan was not meant to be Muslim and then you go on and on about terrorist attacks in Pakistan- clearly you know how much crap and frustration we are in...WHY NOT CUT US SOME CRAP?!

Do we not deserve some slack? How can some sick minded people think we are enjoining all this terrorist atacks let alone funding it! Before any of you open your ****** mouths I have a cousin who got his legs injured because he sat in a bus which had a bomb...I am an everyday Pakistani and I AM NOT A TERRORIST...We suffer and yet get accused of crap we suffer from?!

NO, Pakistan would not have been a better place if .........

Please try to understand some fundamentals.k

There is no uniform "Indian" point of view, on any subject. The diversity of opinions within any given group of Indians, except some borderline extremist fringe elements belonging to various religions, is so noticeable that two books have been written about this trait, Haroun and the Sea of Stories, and The Argumentative Indian. Both are very readable. However, I suggest you do NOT read the first, as it will make unpleasant reading for those who comprehend and who are Pakistani. The point is that Indians are diverse in their views, and some of your causes for complaint may stem from those diversities.

First, about Pakistan and its creation; partition of British India. Some Indians regret partition.

One group regrets the bloodshed, another regrets the dislocation of people from their ancient homes, a third set regrets the separation of land and people from a whole that should not, according to them, have been broken up to give room for growth for adherents of a religion that is alien to India.

This third group also dislikes Pakistan whatever Pakistanis and the state of Pakistan might or might not do. Their dislike is ideological, and is not affected by phenomena like facts.

Other Indians dislike the state of Pakistan for the evil things that it is thought to do, or to sponsor, and perhaps fanatic Pakistanis who mean harm to India, but not to Pakistanis in general. A third group is different from the second, because it is sentimentally attached to those Pakistanis who would have been neighbours if the country had not got partitioned. A fourth group could not care less about such sentimentality,but feel close to Pakistanis of their sort, liberal, not obsessed with religion, cherishing democracy, wishful for development of their respective countries and not inclined to rake up the issues of the past.

Take the matter of being held up for scornful comments, even though your country suffers from bomb attacks as much, or in fact, much, much more than Indians do.

The plain truth is that many Indians do not make a public noise about it, but believe that the difference between a bomb going off in Pakistan and one going off in India is that Pakistan's state establishment has a history and a track record of using terrorism as a military strategy, of encouraging private individuals to train and deploy terrorist squads, and of refusing to act against these individuals when they and their activities are brought to the attention of the Pakistani authorities. Since the Indian state does not encourage Indians to train people in violence, to give them guns and ammunition, to guide them across the boundaries and borders, and to offer them safe haven if they are running from the affected country's security services, such Indians do not hesitate to complain about Pakistan although bombs are going off in Pakistan as well; to them, this is just an outcome of the terribly wrong things done by Pakistani authorities against the state and the innocent people of India.

Just to clarify, there are very few people who think that a terrorist group plans and plots against India during the day and Pakistan during the night. Not so. They know that there are different groups of terrorists floating around. One group of groups concentrate on terrorizing India and
Indians; other groups concentrate their vile activities on killing people from other sects. Some more attack Pakistan and Pakistanis as part of their war against the Americans. This is known, but people want to know when Pakistan will crack down on these activities, and help herself as much as helping neighbours.

So, please do not generalize and talk about how "Indians" offend you.
 
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Its not the only one. In vedas the basic Gods were fortunate to have international recognition. For example the name Ouranos,the Greek god of sky is similar to Varuna,the God of water bodies. Parjanya,another God of Sky can be related to Perkunas,God of thunder and rain in Lithuania. There are others too.

Another point of view: these names are from a common stock of names, used by an older set of people, not necessary genetic ancestors of the later people but those who were using the same language or earlier versions of the language.

So, there seem to have been wandering tribes, of mixed ethnic background, wandering between Anatolia that is now called Turkey and what is now Tajikistan. They spoke a language that evolved over hundreds of years. Groups who split from these tribes, and wandered off in their own direction, carried the language with them, and the old names of the Gods, and changed them in their own ways as they travelled, some of them making up their own myths as they went along.

If this view is correct, the first split was between two broad groups, one of which spoke a variation of that old language called the 'centum' group of languages, the other speaking the 'satam' languages. Those who first spoke the centum languages later developed into five broad streams of languages, Germanic, Celtic, Italian, Greek and Slavic. Those who spoke the satam languages later developed into the Iranian and Indo-Aryan languages.

The same names were carried by those who later developed their version of the old language into Greek, and those who developed their version into Indo-Aryan. There were others as well, but this is the simplest way to explain. Another frequently used example is Jupiter, the chief of the Gods for the Romans, who was Zeus for the Greeks, and Dyaus-Pitar for the Indo-Aryans.

Does this help?

Its not the only one. In vedas the basic Gods were fortunate to have international recognition. For example the name Ouranos,the Greek god of sky is similar to Varuna,the God of water bodies. Parjanya,another God of Sky can be related to Perkunas,God of thunder and rain in Lithuania. There are others too.


Linguists believe that some old versions of Lithuanian are the closest to the ancient language that gave rise to all the others, the language that is now called Proto-Indo-European by scholars.
 
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Could it be coincidence as our ancestors once upon a time were one and similarities in languages is common? Or is there really someone working on proving this? Just curious to know...I love history and mythologies like the Greek mythologies never fail to attract my attention!


This is a really tough one, and the interpretation has made monkeys out of a lot of us who think that we know a lot. Therefore, for what is to follow, you owe me a banana.

Our languages, in certain cases, were one. Not all languages. Arabic, and Hebrew, for instance, are very closely related, and they do not relate to English,German, Dutch, French, Italian, Spanish and the rest of that. Or to Iranian or any of the north indian languages, or, separately, to the Dravidian languages, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada or Malayalam. Or to Chinese. Or to Japanese. Or to the languages spoken in south Africa.

There are different 'language groups' used by scholars to group languages that they consider similar. These groups are highly controversial. Linguists do not agree completely on which language goes into which group, or how much a group should cover. There are languages which do not fall into any group at all, and have no resemblance to any other. One, Burashaski, spoken in Pakistan has no known connections. Others, Finnish and Magyar, spoken by the Hungarians, are close to each other, but to no other language. Perhaps one of the stablest and most robust groups, because languages within them have remarkable resemblances, is the Indo-European group of languages. In India and in Pakistan, this includes Punjabi, Sindhi, Pushto; Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati - in fact, most of the languages well known in north India.

That was the easy part. Now comes the difficult part.

People speaking the same language are not necessarily related to one another, or descended from common ancestors. They just happen to be speaking the same language.

We do not know for certain who brought the first of the Indo-European languages into India. This was Indo-Aryan, known more commonly as Vedic Sanskrit. it might have been an individual, or a single family, or a group of families, or a tribe, or a group of tribes, or a whole people, including all its tribes. At the moment, by reading the Vedas carefully and analyzing its contents, it seems that there may have been a group of tribes, who seem to have had connections with tribes that they left behind on the other side of the Hindu Kush, and kept up these connections for several hundreds of years after they first separated.

What happened to those who came into India? They vanished. They were relatively so small in numbers compared to those already staying there that in a few centuries, they mingled completely with the original inhabitants. Now, to make out who came from where, it needs blood analysis of a very sophisticated type to figure things out.

Rather than putting things in place right down to the last comma, it seems preferable to let people draw their own conclusions.
 
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Linguists believe that some old versions of Lithuanian are the closest to the ancient language that gave rise to all the others, the language that is now called Proto-Indo-European by scholars.

Thank you for your valuable input.
I have one question. Has the research in the two books by Bal Gangadhar Tilak 1.orion 2.the arctic home of vedas about the timing and origin of aryans in India been accepted by other researchers in this field? I have read a very small part of the second book and found his arguments very much logical.
There are also some very readable books. Let us confuse one thing at a time.
Can you please refer some books?
 
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Thank you for your valuable input.
I have one question. Has the research in the two books by Bal Gangadhar Tilak 1.orion 2.the arctic home of vedas about the timing and origin of aryans in India been accepted by other researchers in this field? I have read a very small part of the second book and found his arguments very much logical.

Can you please refer some books?

Tilak has been read extensively by most researchers in the field, but most seem to flinch from his rather extreme conclusions. Somehow the astronomy based approach he has taken does not find much support. I would not like to comment beyond my own capacity to answer, and do not want to comment on the merits and demerits of his arguments.

The book I would refer to you, individually, since you seem to be very well read already, is a quirky and very edgy approach, Ka, by Roberto Calasso. Extraordinary. Not recommended for beginners.
 
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I have a questrion regarding the education system of India.

We have different boards of Education here for Secondary and Higher Secondary Education.We have CBSE,ICSE/ISC and then comes the state-boards.My opinion is we should have a uniform system across the country.
I myself had been in the receving end to some extent.I had my higher-secondary education in a state board affiliated school.But then I realize that the National level competitive exams have a different syllabus altogether,and a slightly different approach as well(more objective than subjective).

What is your take on the matter?Why do we even have all these different boards ?
 
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Do the Indians agree with this statement, made by Gene D. Matlock.

Indian scholars have told me that when and if this expansionism ever disappears, the “Bharata Union” will again splinter into many smaller nations.

Hmm..no. I disagree. The unity of this land goes much much beyond the threat of Muslim expansionism.

To summarize in few lines:

Hinduism is deeply tied to this land (India). Nearly every river, mountain, plain, village etc. is holy and plays into the mythology. Nearly every Hindu in India lives within the actual settings of their mythology, walks the same ground as their Gods, Rishis, Gurus and all his epics take place within the geographical boundaries of this country. It's very hard to sever that spiritual relationship with time and space.
 
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We do not know for certain who brought the first of the Indo-European languages into India. This was Indo-Aryan, known more commonly as Vedic Sanskrit. it might have been an individual, or a single family, or a group of families, or a tribe, or a group of tribes, or a whole people, including all its tribes. At the moment, by reading the Vedas carefully and analyzing its contents, it seems that there may have been a group of tribes, who seem to have had connections with tribes that they left behind on the other side of the Hindu Kush, and kept up these connections for several hundreds of years after they first separated.

What happened to those who came into India? They vanished. They were relatively so small in numbers compared to those already staying there that in a few centuries, they mingled completely with the original inhabitants. Now, to make out who came from where, it needs blood analysis of a very sophisticated type to figure things out.

The Aryan Invasion Theory has undergone many changes over the years. When first proposed, it presumed that North Indians (including Pakistan) were Aryans & the South Indians were Dravidians & that the races were different. They even suggested that facial characteristics of North & South Indians were different as proof. When sample sizes were increased, it was proved that there was no particular distinction between the "Aryans" & "Dravidians". When that happened, more head scratching followed but they stuck to the guns. However when Genetic studies proved that the Indian population had a common genetic character going back some 40000 years, this holding on to the theory of a mass migration became untenable & some came up with the idea that the Aryans were small in number & were absorbed into existing population leaving no traces except their languages. Possible? May be, who knows? It is a theory constantly changing to suit the facts. The Aryan Invasion theory is a strange, strange part of history because it is the only reading of history not supported by archaeological evidence but by linguistics. A case of history sought to be written by linguists & not, as normally done, by archaeologists. Which is why most archaeologists are mighty suspicious(to put it mildly) of this "history".

What we know

The Aryan languages of the sub continent are related to other languages of Iran & Europe.
There is a distinct connection between Aryan culture of India & Aryan culture of Iran.

What we don't know/ can't explain

How a group of people so few in number (supposedly) that they were absorbed by a larger residing population leaving behind no traces of their existence could somehow completely wipe clean huge area of any other linguistic & cultural influence, how they would so dominate a culture that the people so dominated would completely forget their past & remember themselves solely as Aryans & follow their religion & call the land "Aryavarta" meaning abode of the Aryans.

The second part we don't know is the timeline. Various theories of a time line for this "invasion" have been put forward with most proponents putting it around 1500 BCE which is also the time line given for the composition of the Rg Veda.

Problems with the above timeline :

Sarasvati:

The most important river in the Rg veda mentioned more times than any other river including the Ganges & the Indus. The river is a problem because it is regarded in the Rg Veda as being in full flow which by the time of the Mahabharata was a dying river. Though attempts connecting it to the Helmand river (Haraxvaiti) in Afghanistan have been made (to fit in with the AIT), there are enough references to put it in Northern India, flowing through Haryana on into the Rann of Kutch, thought to be the Ghaggar-Hakra system. There is some evidence from Satellite imagery that the Yamuna & the Sutlej originally flowed into it which would explain why it was more mighty than either the Indus or the Ganges & also explain its disappearance when tectonic shifts cause those rivers to flow to the Ganges & the Indus respectively.

The question is when exactly did this river disappear? That would be important to date the Rg Veda which was largely composed on its banks. The theory is that the river dried out between 2500 BCE -1900 BCE though some( Henri-Paul Francfort )have suggested that this is a pre-Harappan river drying out in the 4th millemium BCE (3800 BCE). What is clearly known in that painted Grey Ware sites (dated 1000 BCE) have been found in the river bed (not on the banks) of the Ghaggar-Hakra river suggesting that the river was long dried before then.

The Mitanni:

They are the other problem for the dating of the arival of the "Aryans" since they ruled areas of Iraq,Turkey & Syria around 1500 BCE & were connected linguistically & religiously to the Indo-Aryans specifically & not to the more general Indo-Iranians which would mean they separated or had some connection to the "Aryans" of India proper which would then push back the supposed arrival of the Aryans.

The dating of the Aryan arrival is important because there has to be a connection with the other related linguistic groups who supposedly separated from each other. The History for those people is somewhat difficult to prove beyond this date, actually even to this date, this being the latest (1500 BCE)that the Aryans of India can supposedly be dated. Even proven history for an Iranian civilisation does not go that back. Hence the dates are an important point.

Rg Veda:

The Rg Veda remains the oldest evidence of an Aryan composition but strangely for a people who mentioned everything & remembered it in the orally transmitted tradition for hundreds of years, they have no knowledge of this supposed great migration. There are no references in the Rg veda to any lands outside the Indian sub-continent & Afghanistan & no references to any non-Aryan language encountered in the Indian sub continent . A difficult proposition to believe that people learnt to remember things only after coming to India & not before.

The above is mentioned, not in support of any other theory, certainly not the OOI (out of India) theory which has no archaeological/historical support either but just that this is a far more unexplained piece of history than what is generally suggested.

Rather than putting things in place right down to the last comma, it seems preferable to let people draw their own conclusions.

I agree.
 
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I have always found Hinduism complicated! Every time I ask a Hindu he thinks I am mocking him and refuses to answer ANYTHING related!

Since I follow monotheism I do not understand the concept of having soo many gods who can fight, reproduce and kill each other...How can a gods reproduce or die?

For Greek mythology I liked it because it was no one's religion in today's world so I took it as a story book! But if I did that to Hinduism it would be sort of insulting the religion...

Here it will be easier to understand if Hinduism is seen as a religion that went through phases.

First, it was the religion of steppe wanderers, who worshipped nature, and put names to natural phenomena - the thunder and lightning, sunshine, moonlight, the dawn, fire, the wind, water; these were Indra, Surya, Chandra, Ushas, Agni, Vayu, Varuna. This was the religion celebrated in the exuberant verses of the Vedas. The Vedas, btw, were divided according to purpose; if you are not planning a formal, academic programme of study, only the Rig Veda need interest you.

Next, for reasons nobody has managed to explain, it sat down and became a collection of philosophical explorations and speculation about cosmogony. This phase, marked by the books of the Brahmanas, Aranyakas and the Upanishads, dealt with cosmic order. It describes the universe being born, or created through a cosmic sacrifice, and how, to keep it going, a series of rituals and sacrifices have to be performed.

On the one hand, very fine minds explored the meaning of the universe, but it was on the other hand a recommendation to thie oîrdinary citizen to help to keep the universe in good order. That part of it and the greed of the priests made it a tense time, just ripe for a religious revolution.

This second phase was also the phase when old poems and folk tales were put together to form two epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, the latter huge compared to the former.

The story of the first is simple, how a king kills a boy accidentally, how he is cursed by the boy's father, how he loses his son to the curse and dies of grief, and the son's adventures in exile, in the forest, along with his wife, who refused to leave him, or his loyal half-brother. In the forest, the wife was abducted by a demon king, who swept her away to his distant kingdom. The rest of the story is about how the young prince gathered allies, raised a strange army and attacked and defeated the demon king, before returning home to his own kingdom. It has very dark patches, and also very moral homilies about the nature of man, the duties of a king, faith and loyalty, treachery and courage - in fact, almost every human emotion has its role. I hate reading it because the prince I was named after is murdered while he was praying, unarmed.

The story of the second is again simple, but the story itself starts telling other stories! A royal family is plagued by accidents and by strokes of misfortune through several generations. The story opens with two sets of cousins playing together, training together and finally, fighting together. Clearly, this could not last, so, during a game of dice, one set of cousins, the sons of the king then on the throne, teased and provoked the others to higher and higher stakes, till they had lost everything and had to go into exile. On their return, they asked for their kingdom back, were refused and fought for their rights in a titanic battle that lasted for seventeen days.

This was the phase, perhaps roughly between 1000 BC and 500 BC, where, on the one hand, the philosophers took their thinking to very high, lofty levels, and thought of the nature of the universe, and of creation in ways that still impinge on the thoughts of contemporary society; on the other hand, the Gods were participants in the affairs of men, and were in and out of these epics, just as they were in The Iliad and The Odyssey.

In the third phase, which came after the long period of Buddhism and Jainism, it was a philosophical counter-attack by the brilliant thinker, Sankaracharya, a deep thinker and theoretician about the singular unity of God and creation, of Advaita, that put a focus to the efforts of Hindu revivalists throughout India, and gradually weakened Buddhism. From this ninth century onwards, Buddhism lingered on with less and less influence on society, until the attacks by the Turks killed off most of the monks and saw the destruction of their monasteries and what we call their universities. They still lingered until the 14th century. It was a religion which had millions following it, and did not vanish overnight.

It was at this time, late in the day, that temples appeared, and idols began to be worshipped, ironically, just before their biggest enemies appeared on the scene. It was here, with the amalgamation of northern and southern practices, that the contemporary Hindu pantheon was more or less established, that place was found, with a little juggling, for the Buddha to become another avatar of Vishnu, and the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, creator, preserver and destroyer, took hold of popular imagination. Indra and the old nature gods of the steppes were far less prominent and petered out. They had not come out of their pages in the epics with a great deal of credit and it was difficult to bend in worship to a god who did not behave with great dignity or godlike aloofness.

It was also at this stage that the Bhakti movement started and took hold. This was a movement by reformers who questioned the slide back to ritual that the Hindu revival brought in its wake, and presented a far more personal view of God, a God who cared, and who rewarded the love of his (or her) disciples with love. Here God was represented by princes and players from the epics and by goddesses from the Buddhist practice of Tantra, which elevated goddesses from their earlier subsidiary roles to eminence. Much of this went on developing and growing right to the sixteenth, perhaps, in some senses, even the seventeenth century. It culminated very strangely but brightly, with the Sikh religion.

As for the period between the fourteenth to sixteenth century and today, it was a period when Hinduism went through much of what other religions have experienced, a reversion to fundamentalism, but fortunately for everybody, a fundamentalism without real teeth. In the absence of good thinkers and philosophers among the fundamentalists, they have not been able to represent any stark and austere version of the relaxed religion that they thought Hinduism had become, and so failed to really bring out the lunatic in people.

These are the four broad phases into which you might see the growth and development of Hinduism. This may help you understand why the Rg Veda sings of Indra, but there are no temples to him to be seen. But what you probably want is a made-easy, a Guide to Hinduism without Tears. I could do worse than refer you to the Amar Chitral Katha comics, which are more or less accurate, convey the prejudices and foibles more or less intact, and comes in bite sizes.

Please ask for clarifications as I don't know how much depth would be appropriate.
 
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The Aryan Invasion Theory has undergone many changes over the years. When first proposed, it presumed that North Indians (including Pakistan) were Aryans & the South Indians were Dravidians & that the races were different. They even suggested that facial characteristics of North & South Indians were different as proof. When sample sizes were increased, it was proved that there was no particular distinction between the "Aryans" & "Dravidians". When that happened, more head scratching followed but they stuck to the guns. However when Genetic studies proved that the Indian population had a common genetic character going back some 40000 years, this holding on to the theory of a mass migration became untenable & some came up with the idea that the Aryans were small in number & were absorbed into existing population leaving no traces except their languages. Possible? May be, who knows? It is a theory constantly changing to suit the facts. The Aryan Invasion theory is a strange, strange part of history because it is the only reading of history not supported by archaeological evidence but by linguistics. A case of history sought to be written by linguists & not, as normally done, by archaeologists. Which is why most archaeologists are mighty suspicious(to put it mildly) of this "history".

What we know

The Aryan languages of the sub continent are related to other languages of Iran & Europe.
There is a distinct connection between Aryan culture of India & Aryan culture of Iran.

What we don't know/ can't explain

How a group of people so few in number (supposedly) that they were absorbed by a larger residing population leaving behind no traces of their existence could somehow completely wipe clean huge area of any other linguistic & cultural influence, how they would so dominate a culture that the people so dominated would completely forget their past & remember themselves solely as Aryans & follow their religion & call the land "Aryavarta" meaning abode of the Aryans.

The second part we don't know is the timeline. Various theories of a time line for this "invasion" have been put forward with most proponents putting it around 1500 BCE which is also the time line given for the composition of the Rg Veda.

Problems with the above timeline :

Sarasvati:

The most important river in the Rg veda mentioned more times than any other river including the Ganges & the Indus. The river is a problem because it is regarded in the Rg Veda as being in full flow which by the time of the Mahabharata was a dying river. Though attempts connecting it to the Helmand river (Haraxvaiti) in Afghanistan have been made (to fit in with the AIT), there are enough references to put it in Northern India, flowing through Haryana on into the Rann of Kutch, thought to be the Ghaggar-Hakra system. There is some evidence from Satellite imagery that the Yamuna & the Sutlej originally flowed into it which would explain why it was more mighty than either the Indus or the Ganges & also explain its disappearance when tectonic shifts cause those rivers to flow to the Ganges & the Indus respectively.

The question is when exactly did this river disappear? That would be important to date the Rg Veda which was largely composed on its banks. The theory is that the river dried out between 2500 BCE -1900 BCE though some( Henri-Paul Francfort )have suggested that this is a pre-Harappan river drying out in the 4th millemium BCE (3800 BCE). What is clearly known in that painted Grey Ware sites (dated 1000 BCE) have been found in the river bed (not on the banks) of the Ghaggar-Hakra river suggesting that the river was long dried before then.

The Mitanni:

They are the other problem for the dating of the arival of the "Aryans" since they ruled areas of Iraq,Turkey & Syria around 1500 BCE & were connected linguistically & religiously to the Indo-Aryans specifically & not to the more general Indo-Iranians which would mean they separated or had some connection to the "Aryans" of India proper which would then push back the supposed arrival of the Aryans.

The dating of the Aryan arrival is important because there has to be a connection with the other related linguistic groups who supposedly separated from each other. The History for those people is somewhat difficult to prove beyond this date, actually even to this date, this being the latest (1500 BCE)that the Aryans of India can supposedly be dated. Even proven history for an Iranian civilisation does not go that back. Hence the dates are an important point.

Rg Veda:

The Rg Veda remains the oldest evidence of an Aryan composition but strangely for a people who mentioned everything & remembered it in the orally transmitted tradition for hundreds of years, they have no knowledge of this supposed great migration. There are no references in the Rg veda to any lands outside the Indian sub-continent & Afghanistan & no references to any non-Aryan language encountered in the Indian sub continent . A difficult proposition to believe that people learnt to remember things only after coming to India & not before.

The above is mentioned, not in support of any other theory, certainly not the OOI (out of India) theory which has no archaeological/historical support either but just that this is a far more unexplained piece of history than what is generally suggested.



I agree.

If I might lodge a caveat.

Historians have never dealt with the Aryans as being strictly part of Indian history, but as proto-history. Indian history really starts with the Mauryas; even the king-lists of the Puranas are largely speculative derivations from literary information that was never intended to be archival in nature, or even to represent any kind of annals.

It is everybody else who takes the passages tacked onto the beginning of history texts and runs amok with them.

I shall be writing shortly to the Society for Prevention of Excessive and Egregious Cruelty to Historians, whose acronym is not representative of its character, strongly protesting the silence to these repeated hijackings.
 
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Here it will be easier to understand if Hinduism is seen as a religion that went through phases.

First, it was the religion of steppe wanderers, who worshipped nature, and put names to natural phenomena - .

Again the Aryan Invasion theory. :disagree:

You could do better saying it "might" have been and not it "was". I tend to believe the latter given the lack of facts supporting the AIT best exemplified in post 1195.


It was at this time, late in the day, that temples appeared, and idols began to be worshipped, ironically, just before their biggest enemies appeared on the scene.

There are many temples in Tamil Nadu, for example, that date much before the 14th century time line you have given - for example Pragadeeswarar temple, the Shore temple, the Madurai Meenakshi Amman temple, the Natarajar temple, the Kamakshi Amman temple, Ramanathaswamy temple (Rameswaram) to name a few.

And how come Mahmud of Ghazni gets to plunder Somnath temple in the 11th century when temples appeared only in the late 14th century. Or have I got your intended timeline wrong ?

Except that a good overview. :tup:
 
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Again the Aryan Invasion theory. :disagree:

You could do better saying it "might" have been and not it "was".




There are many temples in Tamil Nadu, for example, that date much before the 14th century time line you have given - for example Pragadeeswarar temple, the Shore temple, the Madurai Meenakshi Amman temple, the Natarajar temple, the Kamakshi Amman temple, Ramanathaswamy temple (Rameswaram) to name a few.

And how come Mahmud of Ghazni get to plunder Somnath temple in the 11th century when temples appeared only in the late 14th century. Or have I got your intended timeline wrong ?

Except that a good overview. :tup:

Actually 10th century. I didn't want to confuse them by pointing out that Sankaracharya was 9th century and the Hindu revival more or less began with him.

Fair enough, legitimate criticism, I shall amend the note on return (around 4'o'clock - another damn' meeting).
 
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Another point, the Hindu pantheon of Shiva,Vishnu and Brahma were established much before that timeline too for the simple reason they were mentioned as such in the epics - Ramayana and Mahabharatha which were written much before that as you had mentioned in the post.
 
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