Ancient Man and His First Civilizations.Proving Aryan Invasion Theory is a myth and severe lie

[KingMamba]

Aryan may mean "one who does noble deeds; a noble one" in Sanskrit but initially it was used to designate the worshippers of the Vedic God, Indra , who followed the Vedic culture (performance of fire sacrifice.)

However, in the Zoroastrian Avesta , airyo/airya is an ethnic group,

airyāfi; daiŋˊhāvō " Iranian lands, peoples",
airyō.šayanəm "land inhabited by Iranians",

Both in the Avesta and Vedas Aryans migration out of Airyana Vaeja/ Arya Vrata (Aryan Homeland), thus increasing the lands occupation of the Aryans get mentioned

1. Worship with oblation Yama the King, son of Vivasvat,
the assembler of people,
who departed from the deep to the heights,
and explored the road for many

2. Yama was the first who found for us the route.
This home is not to be taken from us.
Those who are now born,
(go) by their own routes
to the place whereunto our ancient forefathers emigrated.

(Rig and Atharva Veda)

Iran means land of the Aryans, even today they use the term in a non ethnic way. There are Iranians who are Arabs and even Turks. Also even if Darius meant it in an ethnic manner for himself doesn't change the way the term was used during the vedic period of South Asia.

 

[bronxbull]

Which books were destroyed? Do you have anything concrete to cite, apart from urban legend? Can you name a single history? Furthermore, the oral tradition was not, demonstrably, orthogonal to the written. Even the holiest of the holy books was reduced to writing. How likely is it that there were works - of history, about which nothing is known,

The Nalanda library that was burnt down by Bakhtyar Khilji?

Tipu Sultan's invasion and ransacking of Malabar?

I agree that Oral history need not be orthogonal to written history but it can be also.

Ultimately the facts can exist anywhere.

There is a book called the Chachnama written in the 13th centurt villifying Raja Dahir making him a villain and justifying the invasion of Md Bin Qasim.

Even a Bacha Bacha can see this bogusnama written 4 centuries later.

 

[bronxbull]

Nothing contradictory there. The Persians used the word in the same sense, a nobleman, and they obviously inherited the word from their predecessor language, Indo-Iranian; that would explain how the word got into Indo-Aryan as well, and in the same sense. It is more or less accurate to say that the chieftains, the leading warriors and the priests called themselves Arya.

The others in the tribe, the herdsmen, the butchers, the weavers, the carpenters, the dairymen, the grooms, the common soldiery, the scouts were all the rest of the tribe. When they began to settle down, farmers joined their number; presumably, some kind of storekeepers as well. One could go on from any list of occupations from any wandering tribes in human history.

Nothing contradictory between this and the hypothesis that Indians are not Aryans. Indians (=south Asians) are not; as @shan points out, an Indian, any Indian is constituted of two different genetic stems, the ANI and the ASI, at least from the last five thousand years; earlier, the population was even more homogeneous, especially after a wave of emigration around 40,000 years ago.

Much of the mysterious Indian genetic material to be found elsewhere, much earlier than they had a right to be, must have come from that earlier wave outwards. What was it due to? A change in climate?

These migrations just around the time of the decline of the IVC and towards the dates of the Vedas, are testified to only by genetic studies and by linguistic records. There is not a single archaeological record, unfortunately, until we come to the 8th century phase of Sanskritisation in Tamilakam, which has been researched so brilliantly by a set of historians from India and abroad (post-colonial, one might add; some leftist, many not, one might add). There the sequence that has been established is of tribal society, of meagre surpluses, and of an injection of Brahmins from 'elsewhere', who converted tribes to castes, radically altered the pantheon, introduced the Vedic (strictly, the post-Puranic) pantheon, introduced agamic worship, insisted on the kingdom as the only acceptable political model, and led to the rise of the kingdoms of the deep south. They also re-organised the agrarian system.

These events are well recorded by epigraphs, and the work done on them is exemplary. They offer us a tempting parallel to what might have happened two millennia earlier, around 1500 BC and earlier, in north India. The gap between the two blocs of time, it is tempting to speculate, might have been filled in by the Sanskritisation of the Deccan; of what is today Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh.

It is notable that where the common folk, the non-Arya component of the migrants were the least, from the earliest books on the subject, the tribes adopted into the caste system were the most, for instance in Bengal and east, in south India, meaning the Deccan, and in Maharashtra. As a result, in north India, the genetic difference between Brahmin and other is minimal; in these parts, it is maximal.

But there is no proof, no concrete evidence, no archaeological or historical record, so we are forced to leave these speculations to proto-history and to pre-history.

Yeah but all this happened organically.

Brahmins didn't introduce the varna system,they merely decided who ll be the Kings/Rajputs just like intelligentsia all over does,

My own family was invited by Raja Raja Chola from Karnataka to take care of a temple he built in 900 AD.

The proof is there of that.

Moreover occupational segregation is just normal,thats how people get social security.

Thats why today we have all these groups American Civil Engineers Association/Doctors association/Movie workers guild and so on........to trade unions/mafia etc.

Today TN has no Business class apart from a few chettiars and thats visible in TN.

 

[Black Widow]

@Black Widow .. who told you that ISLAM says "civilization begin 1500 years ago" ???
Never say ISLAM until or unless you r quoting from "Quran"or "Hadith" n that too with complete reference. Ok.. ??
Some of facts tht Quran told us are:
# All human are from one Father n Mother
# Earth n all other heavenly bodies are in motion
# Earth n others are moving in their orbits in a way tht they can't catch each other
# Human ws created with water.

These are not quoted words. Means not a translation. In fact I have explained them in my own words. If you want to see these things in original words of Quran. Then go and get Quranic translation by MUHAMMAD ASAD.

I have never said that Quran quote it. I am just refferring attitude of Muslims. Muslim believe that Civilization started with Islam, before that people were living in Caves.

Some of facts tht Quran told us are:
# All human are from one Father n Mother (BS. Either Quran is illinformed or interpretation is wrong)
# Earth n all other heavenly bodies are in motion (Much before Quran many other scholar said it, Infact Author of Koran copied it from old knowledge)
# Earth n others are moving in their orbits in a way tht they can't catch each other (same as above comment)
# Human ws created with water. (And my a$$ is created with fire, When I fart Napalm comes out.)


I wonder people believe in black magic..

 

[Mujraparty]

200-year-long drought wiped out Indus Valley: Study | Business Standard

 

[Joe Shearer]

The Nalanda library that was burnt down by Bakhtyar Khilji?

Good point, but do you mean to say that the evidence of absence, to twist a well-known logical dictum, is the evidence of possible presence? Because we know that manuscripts were burnt, do we therefore conclude that those manuscripts included a type of manuscript never found before and never found after?

Tipu Sultan's invasion and ransacking of Malabar?

An even better point.

I have the following to say about this:

1. Why is there no single Indian narrative about it, dating from the times?
2. Why are all the historical accounts of the incident written by Europeans, or by Indians writing long after the incident, and as part of nationalist or post-nationalist histories, the kind modelled ultimately on European histories?

Please take a look at the sources used by an evidently anti-Muslim, anti-Tipu and anti-INC person, writing on the Internet (admittedly not the best source for historical references; I will add more once I can find a good text on the subject):

All the available records such as Malabar Manual of William Logan, Historical Sketches of Col. Wilks, Voyage to East Indies of Fra Bartolomaeo, histories of Kerala written by K.P. Padmanabha Menon and Sardar K.M. Panicker, historical research papers of Elamkulam Kunjan Pillai, official reports of the English Company, and the records of Chirackal, Zamorin and Palghat royal families besides those from Trichur, Guruvayoor, Thirunavaya and Perumanam temples,

Please note: two types of sources are cited, histories of the modern type, thus:

1. Malabar Manual by William Logan;
2. Historical Sketches by Col. Wilks;
3. Voyage to East Indies by Fra Bartolomaeo;
4. History of Kerala by K. P. Padmanabha Menon;
5. History of Kerala by Sardar K. M. Panicker
6. Historical research papers of Elamkulam Kunjan Pillai (one of the most well-known and influential of the contemporary writers on Kerala - JS)

and original sources and records which provide material for writing an history, such as:

1. Official reports of the English Company (sic);
2. Records of Chirackal, Zamorin and Palghat royal families;
3. Temple records of
   1. Trichur
   2. Guruvayoor
   3. Thirunavaya
   4. Perumanam

My point, to put things beyond any reasonable doubt, is that there is no Indian history before the Muslims and the Europeans started writing. This should not be taken to mean that there are no historical records; just that those records have not been used to write history before the outsiders came in.

I agree that Oral history need not be orthogonal to written history but it can be also.

Actually, I said the opposite: that oral history is orthogonal, that is, at right angles to written history, completely at odds. My argument is that oral history cannot substitute for written history.

Ultimately the facts can exist anywhere.

There is a book called the Chachnama written in the 13th centurt villifying Raja Dahir making him a villain and justifying the invasion of Md Bin Qasim.

Even a Bacha Bacha can see this bogusnama written 4 centuries later.

Not disputed.

It is when the facts are not converted into history that there is a vacuum.

The Chachnama can serve as an historical record, at best, as much as can any literary composition: Chand Bardai's work comes to mind as an almost exact equivalent.

Yeah but all this happened organically.

Brahmins didn't introduce the varna system,they merely decided who ll be the Kings/Rajputs just like intelligentsia all over does,

My own family was invited by Raja Raja Chola from Karnataka to take care of a temple he built in 900 AD.

The proof is there of that.

Moreover occupational segregation is just normal,thats how people get social security.

Thats why today we have all these groups American Civil Engineers Association/Doctors association/Movie workers guild and so on........to trade unions/mafia etc.

Today TN has no Business class apart from a few chettiars and thats visible in TN.

I don't think anybody objects to freely changeable occupational groups, which are not tightly restricted by birth. The argument is not against occupational differentiation, it is against occupational differentiation rigidly defined at birth, by birth. To argue that a voluntary association of civil engineers equates to the Indian caste system is extraordinary; I would rather not degrade the quality of the conversation by adding to that. Do you seriously believe it yourself?

Aryan may mean "one who does noble deeds; a noble one" in Sanskrit but initially it was used to designate the worshippers of the Vedic God, Indra , who followed the Vedic culture (performance of fire sacrifice.)

However, in the Zoroastrian Avesta , airyo/airya is an ethnic group,

airyāfi; daiŋˊhāvō " Iranian lands, peoples",
airyō.šayanəm "land inhabited by Iranians",

Avesta and Vedas , mentions Aryan migration out of Airyana Vaeja/ Arya Vrata (Aryan Homeland), thus increasing the lands occupation of the Aryans

1. Worship with oblation Yama the King, son of Vivasvat,
the assembler of people,
who departed from the deep to the heights,
and explored the road for many

2. Yama was the first who found for us the route.
This home is not to be taken from us.
Those who are now born,
(go) by their own routes
to the place whereunto our ancient forefathers emigrated.

(Rig and Atharva Veda)

memories of earlier homelands notions were fading in the RV.

Hmmm.

Do you happen to know the role of Yama in Indian mythology? What these references to path-finding are?

 

[manlion]

Hmmm.
Do you happen to know the role of Yama in Indian mythology? What these references to path-finding are?

Yama - is the god of death, Justice etc and the guardian of the South as per Vedic .literature

References ? Please refer to link

History Of The Ancient Aryans

 

[Vinod2070]

‘There is no evidence to show that the distinction between
Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction’
—Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar
By Dr BR AMBEDKAR
Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar’s original works are rarely studied by students of modern Indian history, his theories and worldview still buried from wider exposure and scrutiny... His writings clearly reveal that he totally debunked the Aryan theory of race. Excerpts:

That the theory of the Aryan race set up by Western writers falls to the ground at every point goes without saying. This is somewhat surprising since Western scholarship is usually associated with thorough research and careful analysis. Why has the theory failed? … Anyone who cares to scrutinise the theory will find that it suffers from a double infection. In the first place, the theory is based on nothing but pleasing assumptions and inferences based on such assumptions. In the second place, the theory is a perversion of scientific investigation. It is not allowed to evolve out of facts. On the contrary the theory is preconceived and facts are selected to prove it.

The theory of the Aryan race is just an assumption and no more. It is based on a philological proposition put forth by Dr. Bopp in his epoch–making book called Comparative Grammar, which appeared in 1835. In this book, Dr. Bopp demonstrated that a greater number of languages of Europe and some languages of Asia must be referred to a common ancestral speech. The European languages and Asiatic languages to which Bopp’s proposition applied are called Indo–Germanic. Collectively, they have come to be called the Aryan languages largely because Vedic language refers to the Aryas and is also of the same family as the Indo–Germanic. This assumption is the major premise on which the theory of the Aryan race is based.
From this assumption are drawn two inferences: (1) unity of race, and (2) that race being the Aryan race. The argument is that if the languages have descended from a common ancestral speech then there must have existed a race whose mother tongue it was and since the mother tongue was known as the Aryan tongue the race who spoke it was the Aryan race. The existence of a separate and a distinct Aryan race is thus an inference only. From this inference, is drawn another inference which is that of a common original habitat. It is argued that there could be no community of language unless people had a common habitat permitting close communion. Common original habitat is thus an inference from an inference.

The theory of invasion is an invention. This invention is necessary because of a gratuitous assumption, which underlies the Western theory. The assumption is that the Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representatives of the original Aryan race. Its first home is assumed to have been somewhere in Europe. These assumptions raise a question: How could the Aryan speech have come to India? This question can be answered only by the supposition that the Aryans must have come into India from outside. Hence the necessity for inventing the theory of invasion.

The third assumption is that the Aryans were a superior race. This theory has its origin in the belief that the Aryans are a European race and as a European race it is presumed to be superior to the Asiatic races. Having assumed its superiority, the next logical step one is driven to is to establish the fact of superiority. Knowing that nothing can prove the superiority of the Aryan race better than the invasion and conquest of native races, the Western writers have proceeded to invent the story of the invasion of India by the Aryans and the conquest of native races, and the conquest by them of the Dasas and Dasyus.

The fourth assumption is that the European races were white and had a colour prejudice against the dark races. The Aryans being a European race, it is assumed that it must have had colour prejudice. The theory proceeds to find evidence for colour prejudice in the Aryans who came into India. This it finds in the Chaturvarnya – an institution by the established Indo–Aryans after they came to India and which according to these scholars is based upon Varna which is taken by them to mean colour.
Not one of these assumptions is borne out by facts. Take the premise about the Aryan race. The theory does not take account of the possibility that the Aryan race in the physiological sense is one thing and an Aryan race in philological sense quite different, and that it is perfectly possible that, the Aryan race, if there is one, in the physiological sense may have its habitat in one place and that the Aryan race, in the philological sense, in quite a different place. The theory of the Aryan race is based on the premise of a common language and it is supposed to be common because it has a structural affinity. The assertion that the Aryans came from outside and invaded India is not proved and the premise that the Dasas and Dasyus are aboriginal tribes of India is demonstrably false.

CC current issue

Of course, Dr. Ambedkar was a tool of the "Brahmin advocates" as well one would assume.

 

[Vinod2070]

BTW, I see that all the right boxes can be ticked for some "leftist historians". They fit the definition to the T.

 

[Fattyacids]

‘There is no evidence to show that the distinction between
Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction’
—Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar
By Dr BR AMBEDKAR
Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar’s original works are rarely studied by students of modern Indian history, his theories and worldview still buried from wider exposure and scrutiny... His writings clearly reveal that he totally debunked the Aryan theory of race. Excerpts:
The European languages and Asiatic languages to which Bopp’s proposition applied are called Indo–Germanic. Collectively, they have come to be called the Aryan languages largely because Vedic language refers to the Aryas and is also of the same family as the Indo–Germanic. This assumption is the major premise on which the theory of the Aryan race is based.

The theory of invasion is an invention. This invention is necessary because of a gratuitous assumption, which underlies the Western theory. The assumption is that the Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representatives of the original Aryan race. Its first home is assumed to have been somewhere in Europe. These assumptions raise a question: How could the Aryan speech have come to India? This question can be answered only by the supposition that the Aryans must have come into India from outside. Hence the necessity for inventing the theory of invasion.

Of course, Dr. Ambedkar was a tool of the "Brahmin advocates" as well one would assume.

Like you, Dr Ambedkar proves to be another dumb and complex ridden hindu nationalist, brahmin or not.
Ancient Aryan weren't Germanic people, they came from Caucasus region, Eastern Europe.

"The assumption is that the Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representatives of the original Aryan race. Its first home is assumed to have been somewhere in Europe."

Sanskrit and Persia's Avestan came from Old Slavic, it is not a Germanic language.

"The European languages and Asiatic languages to which Bopp’s proposition applied are called Indo–Germanic."

 

[LURKER]

Like you, Dr Ambedkar proves to be another dumb and complex ridden hindu nationalist, brahmin or not.
Ancient Aryan weren't Germanic people, they came from Ural region, near Eastern Europe.

"The assumption is that the Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representatives of the original Aryan race. Its first home is assumed to have been somewhere in Europe."

Dr Ambedkar was neither a Brahmin nor a Hindu, he was a Dalit ( scheduled caste ) and certainly more smarter than you .

 

[Fattyacids]

Dr Ambedkar was neither a Brahmin nor a Hindu, he was a Dalit ( scheduled caste ) and certainly more smarter than you .

LOL, then he must be a poorly educated dalit.

 

[LURKER]

LOL, then he must be a poorly educated dalit.

He studied in Mumbai University , Colombia University, London University and London School of Economics . Like i said certainly more smarter than you

 

[Fattyacids]

He studied in Mumbai University , Colombia University, London University and London School of Economics . Like i said certainly more smarter than you

I'm judging him by what he wrote, not where he attended school. George W Bush attended Yale n Harvard

It's Columbia university, not Colombia. There's no London university, it's University of London.
I'm smarter than you, that's for sure.

 

[Joe Shearer]

‘There is no evidence to show that the distinction between
Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction’
—Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar
By Dr BR AMBEDKAR
Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar’s original works are rarely studied by students of modern Indian history, his theories and worldview still buried from wider exposure and scrutiny... His writings clearly reveal that he totally debunked the Aryan theory of race. Excerpts:

That the theory of the Aryan race set up by Western writers falls to the ground at every point goes without saying. This is somewhat surprising since Western scholarship is usually associated with thorough research and careful analysis. Why has the theory failed? … Anyone who cares to scrutinise the theory will find that it suffers from a double infection. In the first place, the theory is based on nothing but pleasing assumptions and inferences based on such assumptions. In the second place, the theory is a perversion of scientific investigation. It is not allowed to evolve out of facts. On the contrary the theory is preconceived and facts are selected to prove it.

The theory of the Aryan race is just an assumption and no more. It is based on a philological proposition put forth by Dr. Bopp in his epoch–making book called Comparative Grammar, which appeared in 1835. In this book, Dr. Bopp demonstrated that a greater number of languages of Europe and some languages of Asia must be referred to a common ancestral speech. The European languages and Asiatic languages to which Bopp’s proposition applied are called Indo–Germanic. Collectively, they have come to be called the Aryan languages largely because Vedic language refers to the Aryas and is also of the same family as the Indo–Germanic. This assumption is the major premise on which the theory of the Aryan race is based.
From this assumption are drawn two inferences: (1) unity of race, and (2) that race being the Aryan race. The argument is that if the languages have descended from a common ancestral speech then there must have existed a race whose mother tongue it was and since the mother tongue was known as the Aryan tongue the race who spoke it was the Aryan race. The existence of a separate and a distinct Aryan race is thus an inference only. From this inference, is drawn another inference which is that of a common original habitat. It is argued that there could be no community of language unless people had a common habitat permitting close communion. Common original habitat is thus an inference from an inference.

The theory of invasion is an invention. This invention is necessary because of a gratuitous assumption, which underlies the Western theory. The assumption is that the Indo-Germanic people are the purest of the modern representatives of the original Aryan race. Its first home is assumed to have been somewhere in Europe. These assumptions raise a question: How could the Aryan speech have come to India? This question can be answered only by the supposition that the Aryans must have come into India from outside. Hence the necessity for inventing the theory of invasion.

The third assumption is that the Aryans were a superior race. This theory has its origin in the belief that the Aryans are a European race and as a European race it is presumed to be superior to the Asiatic races. Having assumed its superiority, the next logical step one is driven to is to establish the fact of superiority. Knowing that nothing can prove the superiority of the Aryan race better than the invasion and conquest of native races, the Western writers have proceeded to invent the story of the invasion of India by the Aryans and the conquest of native races, and the conquest by them of the Dasas and Dasyus.

The fourth assumption is that the European races were white and had a colour prejudice against the dark races. The Aryans being a European race, it is assumed that it must have had colour prejudice. The theory proceeds to find evidence for colour prejudice in the Aryans who came into India. This it finds in the Chaturvarnya – an institution by the established Indo–Aryans after they came to India and which according to these scholars is based upon Varna which is taken by them to mean colour.
Not one of these assumptions is borne out by facts. Take the premise about the Aryan race. The theory does not take account of the possibility that the Aryan race in the physiological sense is one thing and an Aryan race in philological sense quite different, and that it is perfectly possible that, the Aryan race, if there is one, in the physiological sense may have its habitat in one place and that the Aryan race, in the philological sense, in quite a different place. The theory of the Aryan race is based on the premise of a common language and it is supposed to be common because it has a structural affinity. The assertion that the Aryans came from outside and invaded India is not proved and the premise that the Dasas and Dasyus are aboriginal tribes of India is demonstrably false.

CC current issue

Of course, Dr. Ambedkar was a tool of the "Brahmin advocates" as well one would assume.

The point of the entire discussion was that Aryan and Dravidian are language categories, not races.

And it took you 506 messages to find out.

Like you, Dr Ambedkar proves to be another dumb and complex ridden hindu nationalist, brahmin or not.
Ancient Aryan weren't Germanic people, they came from Caucasus region, Eastern Europe.


Sanskrit and Persia's Avestan came from Old Slavic, it is not a Germanic language.

Not from Old Slavic, but from Indo-Iranian, a root language for both Sanskrit, through the intermediate Indo-Aryan, and Avestan, through the intermediate Iranian.

BTW, I see that all the right boxes can be ticked for some "leftist historians". They fit the definition to the T.

You would be infinitely better off reading and improving your knowledge than ticking off boxes.