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Featured Anatolian Eagle 2021 - JF-17 To Pitch Against Rafale and Vipers

If the QEAF Rafales came to Pakistan - the entire Indian nation will die in one massive co-ordinated heartvattack ... (worth it just to see tht if you ask me ).

I don't doubt if Indians would have already paying heavily and asking French to convince or influence Qatar for no more of such exercises. Indians don't mind going below 5he belt if it serves their purpose.
 
Second that. Loved to read it as it reminds about CAS words with almost similar meaning that TFX may well be as what PAF wants. That ramjet reference is a perfect example. Hope you can share the fair observation given how much you would you like to share on topic.

From a very disconnected position to the PAF and industry today - I think the AZM project was born not out of 5th generation requirements but more so of finding frustration when trying to get equipment for the JF-17. Even with the Chinese there are red tape and costs to customization that end up making a lot of programs unaffordable or missing their targets.

The other side of this is that requirements are changing so rapidly that unless you are able to innovate and present new solutions within a very compressed timeframe the market and scenarios change rapidly too. Cars and cellular phones are great examples, what was once the lifecycle for 10-12 years on a model now barely lasts 3-4 before consumers demand and technology warrants changes.

The F-35 is a great example where it may be curbed for a different platform while a 6th Gen is planned out. Not because the F-35 is a bad aircraft or that it wont be relevant; but because the technology that is being introduced is outpacing the growth roadmap for a particular aircraft. Which is why the USAF (through Lockmart) has achieved the spectacular success of designing , testing and flying the NGAD demonstrator within a year. I cannot understate how massive that development is because it essentially means they can keep retailoring that aircraft out again and again and that the NGAD is more focused on software than hardware - almost taking a cue from Tesla. @JamD and another member had a fairly good and informative discussion on it in light of radar or EW systems at some point for those who want to search for it.

Moreover, it also means that project relevance now has to planned out based upon rapid (I dare say agile) development processes using more and more common architecture patterns rather than purpose built ones.
The JF-17 may not be relevant in 10 years compared to the original estimate of 15-20 and the PAF may be seeing that and looking for next steps. Fortunately, the PAF (and PN) look be now focused less on prestige projects on the local front and more on what is required to tackle the threats. If it means moving on from a project which you may have sunk funds into for a longer term goal. That doesn't mean the project is a failure, but that the product from it may not be relevant anymore. So the JF-17 being capped at 150 doesn't mean the project failed: the aircraft from 2008 to now have added to the defense and performed fairly well in the roles and duties expected from them. But, the threat dynamic may be changing to where those 150 or 200 would be enough and the PAF now needs a different solution for changing threats from the east.

Speaking of the east, the Tejas is a great example of knowing when to quit and reassess although the project is looking to finally get back on track. Those resources should have been committed to the AMCA or another clean slate design - they are doing the exact steps I highlighted some 8-10 years ago(prepared to search and provide reference lest we become a barray mian who keeps harping on his gospel from 10 years ago or how the PAF are traitors ;)) on using the MNCs and private sector.

The TFX timelines look defined until 2030 and they have taken into account very advanced ADGE's - which mirrors the requirements Pakistan will face in that same timeframe.
 
From a very disconnected position to the PAF and industry today - I think the AZM project was born not out of 5th generation requirements but more so of finding frustration when trying to get equipment for the JF-17. Even with the Chinese there are red tape and costs to customization that end up making a lot of programs unaffordable or missing their targets.

The other side of this is that requirements are changing so rapidly that unless you are able to innovate and present new solutions within a very compressed timeframe the market and scenarios change rapidly too. Cars and cellular phones are great examples, what was once the lifecycle for 10-12 years on a model now barely lasts 3-4 before consumers demand and technology warrants changes.

The F-35 is a great example where it may be curbed for a different platform while a 6th Gen is planned out. Not because the F-35 is a bad aircraft or that it wont be relevant; but because the technology that is being introduced is outpacing the growth roadmap for a particular aircraft. Which is why the USAF (through Lockmart) has achieved the spectacular success of designing , testing and flying the NGAD demonstrator within a year. I cannot understate how massive that development is because it essentially means they can keep retailoring that aircraft out again and again and that the NGAD is more focused on software than hardware - almost taking a cue from Tesla. @JamD and another member had a fairly good and informative discussion on it in light of radar or EW systems at some point for those who want to search for it.

Moreover, it also means that project relevance now has to planned out based upon rapid (I dare say agile) development processes using more and more common architecture patterns rather than purpose built ones.
The JF-17 may not be relevant in 10 years compared to the original estimate of 15-20 and the PAF may be seeing that and looking for next steps. Fortunately, the PAF (and PN) look be now focused less on prestige projects on the local front and more on what is required to tackle the threats. If it means moving on from a project which you may have sunk funds into for a longer term goal. That doesn't mean the project is a failure, but that the product from it may not be relevant anymore. So the JF-17 being capped at 150 doesn't mean the project failed: the aircraft from 2008 to now have added to the defense and performed fairly well in the roles and duties expected from them. But, the threat dynamic may be changing to where those 150 or 200 would be enough and the PAF now needs a different solution for changing threats from the east.

Speaking of the east, the Tejas is a great example of knowing when to quit and reassess although the project is looking to finally get back on track. Those resources should have been committed to the AMCA or another clean slate design - they are doing the exact steps I highlighted some 8-10 years ago(prepared to search and provide reference lest we become a barray mian who keeps harping on his gospel from 10 years ago or how the PAF are traitors ;)) on using the MNCs and private sector.

The TFX timelines look defined until 2030 and they have taken into account very advanced ADGE's - which mirrors the requirements Pakistan will face in that same timeframe.
Does this mean AZM is dead on arrival?
 
So the JF-17 being capped at 150 doesn't mean the project failed: the aircraft from 2008 to now have added to the defense and performed fairly well in the roles and duties expected from them. But, the threat dynamic may be changing to where those 150 or 200 would be enough and the PAF now needs a different solution for changing threats from the east.

Exactly.

Even it can be related to why PAF ordered only 50 Block-III. I say that, by the time Block III is operational, a goal will be set to achieve given the rapid change and advancement of technology and so the level of threat requiring new counter into arena. I really hope that as the baseline is set, people will understand that caping an order for specific number doesn't mean of unsatisfactory performance but new emerging tech and threat. These 50 will be spearhead being latest in tech and weaponry along with Radar EW/ECW etc unless there will be a new challenge and being a home grown product and baseline, PAF can play around.

150 numbers provided us enough defence. Not just provided us experience and opportunity to enter fighter jet market and build our own but also, replacing the ageing fleet of 3rd gen fighter jets. Infact, updated and advance PAF due to JF-17 Thunder. The futuristic approach pretty suggest TFX kind of project that fits the PAF most.
 
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Does this mean AZM is dead on arrival?
Depends on timelines and requirements built in. If they design a platform capable of rapid growth then even if introduced by 2030 it would be relevant.
However, if you put it as a project that is focused on tackling a specific threat then you run into chances of being less effective for the roles envisioned when the time the project comes in.
Today’s design tools and good HW/SW development timeframes mean that what took 10 years before should not take that long.
 
Depends on timelines and requirements built in. If they design a platform capable of rapid growth then even if introduced by 2030 it would be relevant.
However, if you put it as a project that is focused on tackling a specific threat then you run into chances of being less effective for the roles envisioned when the time the project comes in.
Today’s design tools and good HW/SW development timeframes mean that what took 10 years before should not take that long.
They can always go the JF17 route and decouple airframe and avionics (and EW Suite). And when the flight testing approaches, those elements can be adopted based on the threats at the time.
 
Pak have done right to ggain a experience of pros and cons of rafale but fact is thunder cannot beat rafale neither our f 16 balance of air power shifted to india if india plays dump like sending migs again but they will not repeat stupud mistake

F 16 love affair should be forgotten ss soon better for paf

We need to get j 20 in small number will do a better for short term for stop gap
Ok🙂
 
They can always go the JF17 route and decouple airframe and avionics (and EW Suite). And when the flight testing approaches, those elements can be adopted based on the threats at the time.
Avionics is just one aspect - power plant has to have growth built in, the airframe has to have growth built in. The JF-17 airframe is pretty much maxxed out after Block-III until you end up taking larger and expensive modifications that dont make it affordable.
 
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