America’s whipping boy

[Levina]

Actually, i didnt knew. Will surely go through this now once the debate here is over it ALWAYS takes some time when its me and @Syed.Ali.Haider Now @Kaptaan sb is in it as well so it will be a few more posts i suppose

Let me get my popcorns. hehe
Its getting interesting.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Why is Pakistan still spending money on hosting so-called US dignitaries on weekly basis.

In case you missed this little fact - although given your in Canada I wonder how you managed that America is the sole superpower. One sneeze and it sends ripples across the world. Of all the money Pak "wastes" this money is well spent.

@Levina @Syed.Ali.Haider @Arsalan

Ladies and gents I have to break off from this interesting discussion. Real life needs my time.

 

[Arsalan]

It's very simple. Both countries have failed to converge their interests. In that sense it is just simple diplomatic failure. What is diplomacy about? Finding common ground that two parties can be satisfied with. Failure of that would lead to divergance and total failure can sometimes mean matters are sorted out by war which often is cited as diplomacy by other means.

.

And it seems we are coming to some conclusion here.
Totally agree with this part. But are you really from Pakistan and still talking about diplomacy? We SUCK at diplomacy!! Hell we don't even have a foreign minister right now
Still, jokes and pun aside, we surely have failed to some extent at finding some also pursuing them together and that is effecting both of us. To be true, both are equally responsible for this failure as well and diplomacy seem to be the ONLY way out of this situation.

In this context of hard business like negotiation there is no room for crying and wailing or using language like this ex diplomat is using. All he is doing is making diplomcy ever more difficult by grooming the pathetic ignorant class of Pakistan's who will think with emotions and vent their thinking by dousing petrol over flags in centre of Islamabad. This narrows the legroom for future policy makers. Mature countries don't do this. Take a lesson from China

We are an emotional nation. However as far as i have observed, it is us Pakistanis who want to go the diplomatic way who are more concerned about our stupid brothers burning US flags, the US public don't give 5hit about that. There policy makers wont make decision based on these little things and as long as we can both find some common objectives and start pursuing them honestly, thing will be all good again.

Ladies and gents I have to break off from this interesting discussion. Real life needs my time.

 

[VCheng]

You really want to call it "capitalize"? well even that is not that bad. I would even go for "exploit" as long as it serves us, wont face any shame in it either. As you say,, there are no "innocents" in this, lets face it. This is a world of give and take. We became the front line against Soviet expansion, not just out of love for US but because that served our purpose of keeping the bear away as well. We did gain some good from that but we also did lose a lot too, some because of the frustration of the "supporters" and more because of our own lack of planning.

Same is the case here. We were forced into this war but even if we weren't we would have got involved sooner or later. We had too. This is our basic geography! Now since we are IN it there is no shame is asking and accepting help from others involved and even making noise when they do not deliver as per there claims. Just as they make noise about us not doing enough. We are in this together, for now. We will be as long as the US and EU are here in Afghanistan. Some day, they will pack bag and call it a day. We still will be here.

I can agree with the above. There is no shame in international geopolitics, only the relentless pursuit of national interests. By all countries. Always.

As for your statement about the "train being not as regular or rich" we know that. However that train isn't the richest in the world anymore. One reason for this shrinking support is that the players are also losing there significance or at least there are new players coming in the picture. As you say, a new era is dawning and i as a Pakistani can jut wish and hope that we enter this with a well formulated plan that serves our national interest. There is always a time when things can change for good and there is no harm in trying and hoping that this is that time.

I think that Pakistan's recent steps with China are ample proof that it is trying to prepare for momentous changes that are only just beginning to dawn in the region, and even worldwide. The only problems I see are due to its internal threats and weaknesses, since it will be able to play the international geopolitical game as good as anyone else.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

And it seems we are coming to some conclusion here.
Totally agree with this part. But are you really from Pakistan and still talking about diplomacy? We SUCK at diplomacy!! Hell we don't even have a foreign minister right now
Still, jokes and pun aside, we surely have failed to some extent at finding some also pursuing them together and that is effecting both of us. To be true, both are equally responsible for this failure as well and diplomacy seem to be the ONLY way out of this situation.


We are an emotional nation. However as far as i have observed, it is us Pakistanis who want to go the diplomatic way who are more concerned about our stupid brothers burning US flags, the US public don't give 5hit about that. There policy makers wont make decision based on these little things and as long as we can both find some common objectives and start pursuing them honestly, thing will be all good again.

good governance and good diplomacy are the name of the game.
if we successfully present ourselves to be a viable, stable and reliable country then everyone will be willing to do business with us. we are whipping boy because of our own indecisive and rudderless nature.

I am avoiding the civilian/ Military rule bashing on purpose. whoever rules Pakistan .. should be one who is seen as one in control. our political analysts and commentators mourn the American attitude of having better relations with "dictators" but the reasons are simple. they deliver and get the job done.

 

[VCheng]

good governance and good diplomacy are the name of the game.
if we successfully present ourselves to be a viable, stable and reliable country then everyone will be willing to do business with us. we are whipping boy because of our own indecisive and rudderless nature.

I am avoiding the civilian/ Military rule bashing on purpose. whoever rules Pakistan .. should be one who is seen as one in control. our political analysts and commentators mourn the American attitude of having better relations with "dictators" but the reasons are simple. they deliver and get the job done.

USA will work with anyone in power in Pakistan as long as its own national interests are served. That is the correct approach. It is up to Pakistan to devise and improve its internal governance structures as it wishes to do according to its own needs.

I have previously suggested a realpolitik solution here:

https://defence.pk/threads/eight-good-people.398364/

 

[Arsalan]

good governance and good diplomacy are the name of the game.

if we successfully present ourselves to be a viable, stable and reliable country then everyone will be willing to do business with us. we are whipping boy because of our own indecisive and rudderless nature.


I am avoiding the civilian/ Military rule bashing on purpose. whoever rules Pakistan .. should be one who is seen as one in control. our political analysts and commentators mourn the American attitude of having better relations with "dictators" but the reasons are simple. they deliver and get the job done.

It is actually as simple as that!!

It is time we stop shying away from the mistakes we made. We can only FIX them once we recognize there existence. However as i have said repeatedly, those who think that is is ONLY us who are to be blamed are as wrong as those who feel that we are the victims here. It is a two way traffic. We both have made mistakes and now need to learn from them. There is no denying the fact that we need US and world support as much as they need us to be there on the front line (in fact, even more). West also need to understand where they lost the plot and try to make amends. IF we are in this together, all parties involved have to play it together and that can only be achieved by good diplomacy.

I can agree with the above. There is no shame in international geopolitics, only the relentless pursuit of national interests. By all countries. Always.

So that concludes that!

I think that Pakistan's recent steps with China are ample proof that it is trying to prepare for momentous changes that are only just beginning to dawn in the region, and even worldwide. The only problems I see are due to its internal threats and weaknesses, since it will be able to play the international geopolitical game as good as anyone else

Well i can just wish you are right and people at the top management are proven that intelligent. With this major geopolitical shift, the future is not as bleak as it had started to look in previous few years, i would rather call it brighter then most. Thing is, it is us, WE that need to act to capitalize on that. That includes addressing any internal weakness as you mentioned and working one a solid diplomacy as @Irfan Baloch suggested.

 

[VCheng]

Well i can just wish you are right and people at the top management are proven that intelligent. With this major geopolitical shift, the future is not as bleak as it had started to look in previous few years, i would rather call it brighter then most. Thing is, it is us, WE that need to act to capitalize on that. That includes addressing any internal weakness as you mentioned and working one a solid diplomacy as @Irfan Baloch suggested.

Only time will tell. We shall see how well Pakistan adapts and flourishes with these new changes (or not) as a result of its decisions.

 

[WAJsal]

A rubbish article intended for retarded readers. The only "whipping" I see here is the anti American setiment amongst the unthinking citizens of Pakistan by a senior diplomat who should know better. Then again I guess he only reflects his readers.

I think it is quite an accurate and a good article, not the best but can't be classified as rubbish. It is actually enforcing and highlighting our stance. Will go in more details in the second part of my post.

THE kings of yore often kept a whipping boy who could be used to vent their frustrations on and be blamed for their mistakes and misfortune. Today, America appears to have adopted Pakistan as its favourite whipping boy.

Correct, and to go more in detail:
My 10 year old brother has a book, 'Prince and the Pauper'...you have got the Prince of England, a young child along with a Pauper who lives in Fish street. Both of them share similarities and one thing leads to another they get mixed up, actually they switch lives as both of them as sick of things. Anyway the Prince has a teacher who teaches him Latin, Maths and etc, etc, and whenver the Prince makes a mistake the teacher whips a poor boy. Thus the name 'Whipping boy'.
It's the Prince who makes the mistake and guess who gets punished? and in this case USA is the Prince, Pakistan being the whipping boy, along side with all the problems such as Afghanistan, terrorism etc, etc being the Teacher.
Long story short, the USA punishes Pakistan for it's mistakes.
Article touches on three main points and the writer has also given proper details alongside stating how the whipping boy(Pakistan) cannot be blamed for all it's mistakes.

The demand for Afridi’s release may be designed to secure continued publicity for US ‘success’ in killing Bin Laden and to assure current and potential CIA spies that they will enjoy American ‘protection’.

Answer to the point...

The expectation that Pakistan would override its own judicial system and overlook Afridi’s treasonous behaviour reflects the normal American arrogance. Unfortunately, there are precedents where Pakistan has allowed other traitors to exit the country. Many known foreign agents roam free in Pakistan.

In Afridi’s case, it has become difficult for Pakistan to compromise on its ‘principles’ because of public American coercion. Perhaps some gestures from Washington, such as finally offering a formal apology and adequate compensation for the ‘accidental’ killing of 29 Pakistani soldiers by US gunships in November 2011, may have enabled Afridi’s quiet extraction on ‘humanitarian’ grounds.

The American pressure to take action against the Haqqanis is a more serious issue.

Answer to the point:

The network has become an important component of the Afghan Taliban after Sirajuddin Haqqani was appointed as deputy to Mullah Mansour, the new Taliban leader. President Ashraf Ghani’s declaration that he no longer wants Pakistan to bring the Afghan Taliban to the negotiating table but only to attack them is an expression of frustration and desperation. The international consensus remains that a negotiated settlement between Kabul and the Afghan Taliban remains the only road to peace in Afghanistan. Pakistan’s prime minster rightly pointed out during his last visit to Washington, that “Pakistan cannot be asked to bring the Afghan Taliban to the table and kill them at the same time”.

The design seems to be to have Pakistan fight the US and Kabul’s fight against the Haqqanis.
In any event, Pakistan’s Zarb-i-Azb operation has destroyed the infrastructure of the several militant groups which were located in North Waziristan, including the Haqqanis. Most of the group’s fighters and commanders have moved into the adjacent areas of Afghanistan. Some remnants may be holed up in the forests and valleys along the border.

The cross-border flow of fighters, whether Afghan Taliban or Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), can be restricted significantly by fences and other barriers along the Pak-Afghan border. However, Pakistan’s plan to fence the border at certain points has been vigorously opposed by the Kabul government. Nor has Kabul (or the US) been forthcoming in responding to Pakistan’s proposals to establish an effective coordination mechanism to control cross border movements.

The design seems to be to have Pakistan fight the US and Kabul’s fight against the Haqqanis, and if it does not, to blame it for their military reversals and failure to halt the Taliban’s ascendancy in Afghanistan. At the same time, Kabul at least, if not the US, wants to keep the border open, thus enabling the TTP — which is apparently sponsored and supported by Afghan and Indian intelligence — to continue its cross-border attacks in Pakistan from its safe havens in Afghanistan.

It is notable that the areas where the TTP has established safe havens were vacated by the US and Afghan forces just as Pakistan was launching its Zarb-i-Azb operation. Islamabad cannot but conclude that the US demand regarding the Haqqanis not only lacks a coherent political and military rationale, but amounts to a measure of complicity in the Indian design to destabilise Pakistan’s frontier regions.

US pressure on Pakistan to halt the deployment of tactical or theatre nuclear weapons amounts to a pre-emptive strike to prevent Islamabad’s response to India’s Cold Start doctrine which prescribes a sudden and massive attack against Pakistan.

Answer to the point...

At the recent (and final) US-sponsored nuclear security summit, President Obama admonished India and Pakistan for “moving in the wrong direction” (in their strategic programmes). Yet, the pressure for restraint is applied only against Pakistan. If the desire is to avoid a dangerous nuclear scenario, priority ought to be accorded to addressing the cause of Pakistan’s planned deployment of theatre nuclear weapons: the Indian ‘operationalisation’ of its Cold Start doctrine. Indian strike units have been moved to forward positions and equipped with the capabilities to undertake a rapidly mobilised general offensive against Pakistan.

Pakistan can display restraint on theatre nuclear weapons only if India reverses this process of operationalisation of this aggressive posture. Far from dissuading India, Washington is vying to supply it with all manner of advanced arms and technologies which will inevitably further enhance New Delhi’s capacity for military aggression against Pakistan. The US is thus attempting to prevent a crisis which it is itself helping to create.

In response to the US demarches, Pakistan should clearly outline what steps of restraint and reversal it expects India to take in order to convince Islamabad to hold back from deploying the theatre nuclear weapons. Since the US has intervened on this issue with Pakistan, it can be asked, in the absence of a Pakistan-India dialogue, to secure India’s agreement to such measures of restraint which would be reciprocated by Pakistan.

Despite America’s slings and arrows, Pakistan is obliged to avoid a confrontation with Washington. On the other hand, the US would be ill advised to continue bullying Pakistan into compromising its vital interests. In extremis, even a whipping boy can ‘turn’ on his tormentor.

Long story short Pakistan cannot be blamed for all the problems arising from the situation in Afghanistan or other issues. The US should stop playing the blame game and should accept their mistake. Same case is in Iraq, Syria, Lybia or any other place US has destroyed. It blames others for it's failures. Others can't always be the whipping boy. US has double standards, it has different set of rules for every other country. And this we can't go on with, or allow. Forget about our mistakes(which are very minor compared to yours), take a look at all you have done. And even then you continue to live in a delusion.
The whipping boy needs the Prince to be replaced by the humble Pauper(remember they switch places), to get free from all the punishment. Yes we are suffering. Title is self-explanatory, article is short but to the point. I wonder what @Kaptaan Khan finds rubbish in the article.

All the firepower i can provide @Arsalan ...

@Joe Shearer ,@Manticore ,@Irfan Baloch ,@HRK ,@WebMaster ,@Horus , @nair ,@scorpionx ,@saiyan0321 ,@Mr.Meap and others

@anant_s ...

 

[Arsalan]

I think it is quite an accurate and a good article, not the best but can't be classified as rubbish. It is actually enforcing and highlighting our stance. Will go in more details in the second part of my post.

Correct, and to go more in detail:
My 10 year old brother has a book, 'Prince and the Pauper'...you have got the Prince of England, a young child along with a Pauper who lives in Fish street. Both of them share similarities and one thing leads to another they get mixed up, actually they switch lives as both of them as sick of things. Anyway the Prince has a teacher who teaches him Latin, Maths and etc, etc, and whenver the Prince makes a mistake the teacher whips a poor boy. Thus the name 'Whipping boy'.
It's the Prince who makes the mistake and guess who gets punished? and in this case USA is the Prince, Pakistan being the whipping boy, along side with all the problems such as Afghanistan, terrorism etc, etc being the Teacher.
Long story short, the USA punishes Pakistan for it's mistakes.
Article touches on three main points and the writer has also given proper details alongside stating how the whipping boy(Pakistan) cannot be blamed for all it's mistakes.

Answer to the point...




Answer to the point:


Answer to the point...



Long story short Pakistan cannot be blamed for all the problems arising from the situation in Afghanistan or other issues. The US should stop playing the blame game and should accept their mistake. Same case is in Iraq, Syria, Lybia or any other place US has destroyed. It blames others for it's failures. Others can't always be the whipping boy. US has double standards, it has different set of rules for every other country. And this we can't go on with, or allow. Forget about our mistakes(which are very minor compared to yours), take a look at all you have done. And even then you continue to live in a delusion.
The whipping boy needs the Prince to be replaced by the humble Pauper(remember they switch places), to get free from all the punishment. Yes we are suffering. Title is self-explanatory, article is short but to the point. I wonder what @Kaptaan Khan finds rubbish in the article.

All the firepower i can provide @Arsalan ...

@Joe Shearer ,@Manticore ,@Irfan Baloch ,@HRK ,@WebMaster ,@Horus , @nair ,@scorpionx ,@saiyan0321 ,@Mr.Meap and others

@anant_s ...

Nicely put. I will summarize it all AGAIN as this;
We, both US and Pak have made mistakes but the problem with both of us is that rather then addressing our own short comings we love to blame each other. Our public will cry out about any thing that goes wrong "jo krwa raa ha amreka krwaa raha ha" attitude. They, with all there military might will blame us for there failures in Afghanistan. BOTH need each other in the long run and both will need to correct there actions, we because we have more to gain from all this and US because there blunders have been the bigger ones and they will have to live up to there reputation of Golbal super power. Specially in wake of the rapidly changing geo-political alliances.

 

[VCheng]

Nicely put. I will summarize it all AGAIN as this;
We, both US and Pak have made mistakes but the problem with both of us is that rather then addressing our own short comings we love to blame each other. Our public will cry out about any thing that goes wrong "jo krwa raa ha amreka krwaa raha ha" attitude. They, with all there military might will blame us for there failures in Afghanistan. BOTH need each other in the long run and both will need to correct there actions, we because we have more to gain from all this and US because there blunders have been the bigger ones and they will have to live up to there reputation of Golbal super power. Specially in wake of the rapidly changing geo-political alliances.

The best thing about international geopolitics is that nothing remains the same. The present downs in the US-Pak relationship will be just as temporary as the highs in the past, as the cycles repeats.

 

[Arsalan]

The best thing about international geopolitics is that nothing remains the same. The present downs in the US-Pak relationship will be just as temporary as the highs in the past, as the cycles repeats.

What we need to LEARN to change and keep pace with these changing cycles. STOP blaming some of the decision of the past that might well have been made in accordance of the situation at that time and use that energy in formulating your action for now and tomorrow.

 

[VCheng]

What we need to LEARN to change and keep pace with these changing cycles. STOP blaming some of the decision of the past that might well have been made in accordance of the situation at that time and use that energy in formulating your action for now and tomorrow.

Much of what people see as Pakistan being "whipped" is actually by its own choice.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You really want to call it "capitalize"? well even that is not that bad. I would even go for "exploit" as long as it serves us, wont face any shame in it either. As you say,, there are no "innocents" in this, lets face it. This is a world of give and take. We became the front line against Soviet expansion, not just out of love for US but because that served our purpose of keeping the bear away as well. We did gain some good from that but we also did lose a lot too, some because of the frustration of the "supporters" and more because of our own lack of planning.

Same is the case here. We were forced into this war but even if we weren't we would have got involved sooner or later. We had too. This is our basic geography! Now since we are IN it there is no shame is asking and accepting help from others involved and even making noise when they do not deliver as per there claims. Just as they make noise about us not doing enough. We are in this together, for now. We will be as long as the US and EU are here in Afghanistan. Some day, they will pack bag and call it a day. We still will be here.

As for your statement about the "train being not as regular or rich" we know that. However that train isn't the richest in the world anymore. One reason for this shrinking support is that the players are also losing there significance or at least there are new players coming in the picture. As you say, a new era is dawning and i as a Pakistani can jut wish and hope that we enter this with a well formulated plan that serves our national interest. There is always a time when things can change for good and there is no harm in trying and hoping that this is that time.


Actually, i didnt knew. Will surely go through this now once the debate here is over it ALWAYS takes some time when its me and @Syed.Ali.Haider Now @Kaptaan sb is in it as well so it will be a few more posts i suppose.

Apart from everything else, @Arsalan , you don't seem to appreciate that this three-way conversation of yours has given us a rare conversation of very high quality. It is a treat to read and sample the cut and parry of these rational arguments exchanged by very articulate and mature gentlemen.

I think it is quite an accurate and a good article, not the best but can't be classified as rubbish. It is actually enforcing and highlighting our stance. Will go in more details in the second part of my post.

Correct, and to go more in detail:
My 10 year old brother has a book, 'Prince and the Pauper'...you have got the Prince of England, a young child along with a Pauper who lives in Fish street. Both of them share similarities and one thing leads to another they get mixed up, actually they switch lives as both of them as sick of things. Anyway the Prince has a teacher who teaches him Latin, Maths and etc, etc, and whenver the Prince makes a mistake the teacher whips a poor boy. Thus the name 'Whipping boy'.
It's the Prince who makes the mistake and guess who gets punished? and in this case USA is the Prince, Pakistan being the whipping boy, along side with all the problems such as Afghanistan, terrorism etc, etc being the Teacher.
Long story short, the USA punishes Pakistan for it's mistakes.
Article touches on three main points and the writer has also given proper details alongside stating how the whipping boy(Pakistan) cannot be blamed for all it's mistakes.

Answer to the point...




Answer to the point:


Answer to the point...



Long story short Pakistan cannot be blamed for all the problems arising from the situation in Afghanistan or other issues. The US should stop playing the blame game and should accept their mistake. Same case is in Iraq, Syria, Lybia or any other place US has destroyed. It blames others for it's failures. Others can't always be the whipping boy. US has double standards, it has different set of rules for every other country. And this we can't go on with, or allow. Forget about our mistakes(which are very minor compared to yours), take a look at all you have done. And even then you continue to live in a delusion.
The whipping boy needs the Prince to be replaced by the humble Pauper(remember they switch places), to get free from all the punishment. Yes we are suffering. Title is self-explanatory, article is short but to the point. I wonder what @Kaptaan Khan finds rubbish in the article.

All the firepower i can provide @Arsalan ...

@Joe Shearer ,@Manticore ,@Irfan Baloch ,@HRK ,@WebMaster ,@Horus , @nair ,@scorpionx ,@saiyan0321 ,@Mr.Meap and others

@anant_s ...

Personally, speaking ONLY for myself, I think that this is an excellent thread in which to shut up and enjoy high quality reasoned argument. Pity @Kaptaan had to leave.

 

[MastanKhan]

Not really. Pakistani courts overturned Dr. Afridi's sentence three years ago. No retrial is scheduled. Thus it is Pakistani, not American, arrogance that is overriding Pakistan's own judicial system to keep Dr. Afridi in jail.

Hi,.

How about Jonathan Pollard and Mordechai Vanunu---?

Shakeel had his chance to leave---nicely and quietly---but he chose to thumb his nose at the authorities---. The U S warned him not to stay---but he said fck you to the U S by staying and fck you to pakistan by openly roaming around after the operation.

Hi,

Pakistan just needs to quietly move away from the U S camp---no protests---no complaints---no nothing---.

I would have liked a better media campaign---just like the ministers are protecting Nawaz---I wish they invested that energy towards warding off the united states.

 

[VCheng]

Hi,

Pakistan just needs to quietly move away from the U S camp---no protests---no complaints---no nothing---.

I would have liked a better media campaign---just like the ministers are protecting Nawaz---I wish they invested that energy towards warding off the united states.

Nobody can prevent Pakistan from doing so, as it wishes to move away, or closer to, any other world power, or indeed any country. The fact that it chooses not to do so with USA is a clear indication of its own decisions.