America’s whipping boy

[Arsalan]

The US is thus attempting to prevent a crisis which it is itself helping to create.

So whats new?
This is so true to the American nature/attitude.

So when is Pakistan getting $100 billion that it claims it lost due to the WoT?

I though you knew better then that.
"lost $100 billion" is not like $100 billion dollars notes were stolen!!
I KNOW you know better then this.

 

[VCheng]

Come on!
America has not been victimized yet, or it would not have retained the hegemony.

The gist of his post was, Pakistan always expects others to help it, be it America or China, which is true...or so I believe.
TBH, if America was not the super power that it is, then the media would have hectored America for all its wrong doings.

The key is that not only Pakistan expects others to help it out, it gets its way. Isn't that success?

 

[VCheng]

I though you knew better then that.
"lost $100 billion" is not like $100 billion dollars notes were stolen!!
I KNOW you know better then this

But isn't the expectation that Pakistan be reimbursed for the losses that it claims? Clearly, Pakistan regards the CSF payments as not being enough.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The claims count

They may or may not. The exact figures will never be known. Exact records are not Pakistan's forte. However the question you should be asking is USA obliged to compensate for the loss? I am not sure about that. Everyday countries make foreign policies that go on to impact others in myriad of ways. Financial loss is one of them but I can't see any legal requiremant to compensate.

Many companies and countries lost lucrative contracts when Saddam was overthrown in Iraq. I can't see any of them making claims or getting any compensation for the loss suffered. Help is not privalage or a right but a favour that the other country might decide to extend based on it's interests.

 

[Arsalan]

But isn't the expectation that Pakistan be reimbursed for the losses that it claims? Clearly, Pakistan regards the CSF payments as not being enough.

Its an assumption, deduction of a conclusion about "what it means". This in an ongoing war, it may not be about reimbursement at all, it may be about stepping up the work being done here against the terrorists. What about this meaning "Pakistan saying that not enough effort is being put in to eliminate these threats to world peace"

We must call a spade a spade but there is no spade here. It is all about perspective. This is one open debate and one can defend anyone they want to, there are enough supporting arguments for everyone involved. Heck some people may find this to be true for even Taliban!!

Oh and for your comments about US help to Pakistan, those who think that that is non-existent or even non-important are WRONG. It is there, we have gotten a lot from them too and i wont term US as the ultimate evil in the larger game. The hate speech against US that we get to listen from some corners is mostly from miss guided public who are being used politically. We have suffered a lot cause of them as well but no doubt we have gained much too.

However the question you should be asking is USA obliged to compensate for the loss? I am not sure about that. Everyday countries make foreign policies that go on to impact others in myriad of ways. Financial loss is one of them but I can't see any legal requiremant to compensate.

They are not!!
But
Do they have the right to interfere with how we carry out our state affairs?

It is not one way traffic sir.

 

[VCheng]

What about this meaning "Pakistan saying that not enough effort is being put in to eliminate these threats to world peace"

In others words, Pakistan wants more "support" from the international community since it regards itself as fighting to help world peace. But what Pakistan fails to realize is that it is fighting a war for its very existence and not for others. A few more F-16s or a few more billions of dollars will not help unless this basic change in perspective happens, Sir.

Do they have the right to interfere with how we carry out our state affairs?

Pakistan, as a sovereign state, has every right to pursue its own national interests. As best as it can. Other nations will of course do the same.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

right to interfere with how we carry out our state affairs?

No they don't have right but that has never stopped any country from interfering with another. You know it is and always has been "dog eat dog" world out there. Did it or has it ever stopped Pakistan interfering in the affairs of other countries like say Afghanistan? Interferance is bread and butter of every countries foreign policy. The only caveat is how and to what degree they can interfer. Pakistan can certainly interfer more than tiny Bhutan. USA can certainly do it more than Pakistan.

Don't confuse with being able to intefer with, not being able to interfer with and not interfering through choice.

 

[Arsalan]

In others words, Pakistan wants more "support" from the international community since it regards itself as fighting to help world peace. But what Pakistan fails to realize is that it is fighting a war for its very existence and not for others. A few more F-16s or a few more billions of dollars will not help unless this basic change in perspective happens, Sir.



Pakistan, as a sovereign state, has every right to pursue its own national interests. As best as it can. Other nations will of course do the same.

Well i have never been of the view of "there war or our war" we are neck deep in it now. No matter when and where it started and who or what was responsible for that, it is our problem now, i though we discussed that before as well. You do know me this much by now right?
The issue here is that the "world peace brokers" claim that they are working to ensure peace in the region. We ask for help against these claims. As far as i see, this is how the world works now, your problems are no more yours alone!! If that was the case we wont be watching half of the world bombing Syria right now. A few more F16s and a few more dollars are asked for only because the brokers say they are willing to do anything to ENSURE world peace.
Come on, we cannot have one player play innocent and other play clever in this game.

No they don't have right but that has never stopped any country from interfering with another. You know it is and always has been "dog eat dog" world out there. Did it or has it ever stopped Pakistan interfering in the affairs of other countries like say Afghanistan? Interferance is bread and butter of every countries foreign policy. The only caveat is how and to what degree they can interfer. Pakistan can certainly interfer more than tiny Bhutan. USA can certainly do it more than Pakistan.

Don't confuse with being able to intefer with, not being able to interfer with and not interfering through choice.

Exactly!!
I was talking about "not interfering by choice". That is not the case here.
For me, the problem here is that both Pak and US are making mistakes and all they are BOTH doing is blaming each other for these mistakes rather then working to right the wrongs.

 

[Levina]

The key is that not only Pakistan expects others to help it out, it gets its way. Isn't that success?

In that case it should have got help from every quarter, but it did not. In short, only those with vested interests helped Pakistan.

So whats new?
This is so true to the American nature/attitude.

I did not contradict this fact.

 

[Arsalan]

I did not contradict this fact.

From what little i know about you,, YOU WONT contradict this fact.

 

[VCheng]

Well i have never been of the view of "there war or our war" we are neck deep in it now. No matter when and where it started and who or what was responsible for that, it is our problem now, i though we discussed that before as well. You do know me this much by now right?
The issue here is that the "world peace brokers" claim that they are working to ensure peace in the region. We ask for help against these claims. As far as i see, this is how the world works now, your problems are no more yours alone!! If that was the case we wont be watching half of the world bombing Syria right now. A few more F16s and a few more dollars are asked for only because the brokers say they are willing to do anything to ENSURE world peace.
Come on, we cannot have one player play innocent and other play clever in this game.

So Pakistan wants to capitalize on the premise that the world will do anything to ensure peace in the region? There are no innocents on any side in this matter, that much is clear. Of course Pakistan is entitled to milk the situation to its advantage as much as is possible, but the gravy train that has been rolling in from the West may not be as regular or rich as it has been in the past. May be this is where China will step in to mutual advantage, as a new era dawns in international geopolitics.

 

[Levina]

From what little i know about you,,

I don't know if you know, that I am the author of this...
The new enemy

lol

 

[xyxmt]

Why is Pakistan still spending money on hosting so-called US dignitaries on weekly basis.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pak and US are making mistakes and all they are BOTH doing is blaming each other

It's very simple. Both countries have failed to converge their interests. In that sense it is just simple diplomatic failure. What is diplomacy about? Finding common ground that two parties can be satisfied with. Failure of that would lead to divergance and total failure can sometimes mean matters are sorted out by war which often is cited as diplomacy by other means.

In this context of hard business like negotiation there is no room for crying and wailing or using language like this ex diplomat is using. All he is doing is making diplomcy ever more difficult by grooming the pathetic ignorant class of Pakistan's who will think with emotions and vent their thinking by dousing petrol over flags in centre of Islamabad. This narrows the legroom for future policy makers. Mature countries don't do this. Take a lesson from China.

 

[Arsalan]

So Pakistan wants to capitalize on the premise that the world will do anything to ensure peace in the region? There are no innocents on any side in this matter, that much is clear. Of course Pakistan is entitled to milk the situation to its advantage as much as is possible, but the gravy train that has been rolling in from the West may not be as regular or rich as it has been in the past. May be this is where China will step in to mutual advantage, as a new era dawns in international geopolitics.

You really want to call it "capitalize"? well even that is not that bad. I would even go for "exploit" as long as it serves us, wont face any shame in it either. As you say,, there are no "innocents" in this, lets face it. This is a world of give and take. We became the front line against Soviet expansion, not just out of love for US but because that served our purpose of keeping the bear away as well. We did gain some good from that but we also did lose a lot too, some because of the frustration of the "supporters" and more because of our own lack of planning.

Same is the case here. We were forced into this war but even if we weren't we would have got involved sooner or later. We had too. This is our basic geography! Now since we are IN it there is no shame is asking and accepting help from others involved and even making noise when they do not deliver as per there claims. Just as they make noise about us not doing enough. We are in this together, for now. We will be as long as the US and EU are here in Afghanistan. Some day, they will pack bag and call it a day. We still will be here.

As for your statement about the "train being not as regular or rich" we know that. However that train isn't the richest in the world anymore. One reason for this shrinking support is that the players are also losing there significance or at least there are new players coming in the picture. As you say, a new era is dawning and i as a Pakistani can jut wish and hope that we enter this with a well formulated plan that serves our national interest. There is always a time when things can change for good and there is no harm in trying and hoping that this is that time.

I don't know if you know, that I am the author of this...
The new enemy

lol

Actually, i didnt knew. Will surely go through this now once the debate here is over it ALWAYS takes some time when its me and @Syed.Ali.Haider Now @Kaptaan sb is in it as well so it will be a few more posts i suppose.