American Sailors attacked in Turkey

[Indian Patriot]

This sentence says a lot about you.

Headscarves was always there just banned in state institutions alongside other religious symbols such as cross for exsample which was obviously violating the freedom of religion paragraph in our constitution. Now that the ban is lifted doesnt mean everybody will wear headscarves, someone who didnt wear headscarve in her private life wont also wear it in school so no comeback in sight.
You would be the first one to jump up if the same ban was applied on Hindu Turban, hypocracy at its best.

I wisited Turkey this summer after 4 years, it looked like the opposite to me.

He was afraid of a coup, its all struggle for power, nothing to do with religion, you need to know about Gülen organization to have a discussion with me about the subject so forget it and dont even start pls.

I just refuted your biased arguments and the data is from April 2013 and again pls stop talking about topics you have no clue about.

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

1. And what does your and your fellow compatriots sentences tell about you? Don't be a hypocrite. If you can't take it then don't dish it.

2. Maybe you are not from Turkey or not born in Turkey. Headscarves and any religious symbolism was banned under Ataturk. Forget headscarves men in government positions were not allowed to wear skull caps and keep beard. The current mad man you have as a PM is doing the exact opposite of Ataturk.

3. Erdognan's wife openly flaunts her headscarf and in many pics erdognan was photographed praying when he was on official visits. These are not accident. The man is trying to portray himself as a staunch muslim leader and not a secular PM.

And Hindus have no love for turbans. Turbans are a legacy of the Mughal rule. Sikhs wear Turban as a religious obligation. Hindu priests actually have a shaven head. LOL!! Atleast learn your facts before you troll.

4. So I was right in my assumption. You are not native to Turkey.

5. He was afraid of a coup but why. The military in Turkey are the only remaining guardians of Ataturk's legacy of secularism. And Erdognan got the thorn out of his side by arresting the top Turkish generals before they had any chance to act. Now nobody dares to oppose him.

If you feel embarrassed to answer the truth then just ask yourself. Does Erdognan enjoy absolute power in Turkey? Is there anybody in Turkey who dares to oppose him? Is his policies in line with Ataturk's idea of secularism or against? Is it wrong to say that under Erdognan there is a major revival of islam in public life of Turkey?

If you honestly answer these questions you will know who is right.

 

[xenon54 out]

2. Maybe you are not from Turkey or not born in Turkey. Headscarves and any religious symbolism was banned under Ataturk. Forget headscarves men in government positions were not allowed to wear skull caps and keep beard. The current mad man you have as a PM is doing the exact opposite of Ataturk.

There is still dress code in state institutions, headscarve, beard or anything else is still forbidden in jobs that require a Uniform such as police or military, now you learned something new.

3. Erdognan's wife openly flaunts her headscarf and in many pics erdognan was photographed praying when he was on official visits. These are not accident. The man is trying to portray himself as a staunch muslim leader and not a secular PM.

What he or his wife are doing/wearing isnt my business, that Erdogan isnt a secular is no secret, Turkey is still the most secular country in ME, even more than your beloved Israel in that matter.

And Hindus have no love for turbans. Turbans are a legacy of the Mughal rule. Sikhs wear Turban as a religious obligation. Hindu priests actually have a shaven head. LOL!! Atleast learn your facts before you troll.

Ok lets say Sikhs, you still would jump up as first, my point is your hypocracy.

4. So I was right in my assumption. You are not native to Turkey.

@Sinan is native, ask him if anything im saying is wrong here.

5. He was afraid of a coup but why. The military in Turkey are the only remaining guardians of Ataturk's legacy of secularism. And Erdognan got the thorn out of his side by arresting the top Turkish generals before they had any chance to act. Now nobody dares to oppose him.

The military did coups on everyone opposed them before, as i said you dont have deep knowledge about the subject and its connection to Gülen organization so leave it.
Secularism is one of the core elements of Turkish constitution noone can touch it.

If you feel embarrassed to answer the truth then just ask yourself.

I will refute every single of your superficial arguments why should i be embrassed to answer you? It really isnt hard to counter your arguments to be honest.

Does Erdognan enjoy absolute power in Turkey? Is there anybody in Turkey who dares to oppose him?

I dont deny it.

Is his policies in line with Ataturk's idea of secularism or against?

Not in line but also not against, he didnt brought a single law that isnt conform with secularism.

Is it wrong to say that under Erdognan there is a major revival of islam in public life of Turkey?

Yes it is, he might use religion to get votes from the conservative part of socieity but Islam was always there, there are people who are more or less religious, his policy didnt changed anything about peoples faith.

 

[Indian Patriot]

There is still dress code in state institutions, headscarve, beard or anything else is still forbidden in jobs that require a Uniform such as police or military, now you learned something new.

What he or his wife are doing/wearing isnt my business, that Erdogan isnt a secular is no secret, Turkey is still the most secular country in ME, even more than your beloved Israel in that matter.

Ok lets say Sikhs, you still would jump up as first, my point is your hypocracy.

@Sinan is native, ask him if anything im saying is wrong here.

The military did coups on everyone opposed them before, as i said you dont have deep knowledge about the subject and its connection to Gülen organization so leave it.
Secularism is one of the core elements of Turkish constitution noone can touch it.

I will refute every single of your superficial arguments why should i be embrassed to answer you? It really isnt hard to counter your arguments to be honest.

I dont deny it.

Not in line but also not against, he didnt brought a single law that isnt conform with secularism.

Yes it is, he might use religion to get votes from the conservative part of socieity but Islam was always there, there are people who are more or less religious, his policy didnt changed anything about peoples faith.

Irrespective of dress code or uniform. During the time of Ataturk all religious signatures were removed. No headscarves, no beards, no skull cap anywhere in public space. This was true until the man erdognan came in power.

What he and his wife is doing does matter because he and his wife is doing that in their official visits. A PM getting photographed in prayer while on an official visit holds a lot of symbolic meaning. Erdognan is making a statement that he is deeply religious and this religious man is shaping up Turkey in his image. He is not countering Ataturk, he is replacing him.

And I doubt a polytheist would feel safe in Turkey as compared to Israel.

Conservative Sikhs yes. But many urban Sikhs in India and abroad voluntarily do away with their religious identity. Religion is strong only among one community in India.

Military did coup to uphold the ideals of Ataturk. And will the constitution remain the same when Ataturk occupies 90% and more of Turkish parliament. The man is more smart than that. He is slowly and slowly invoking Islam.

All his civil laws, the laws that govern society are opposite to secularism. You agree that he is using religion to use it to get votes. This would have been normal thing in say Pakistan which is an openly Islamic country. But a politician demanding votes on basis of religion in a secular country is ironic. And the fact that he is winning every election with thumping majority also proves that the idea of secularism is not so strong in Turkish society as you would like to believe.

 

[xenon54 out]

Irrespective of dress code or uniform. During the time of Ataturk all religious signatures were removed. No headscarves, no beards, no skull cap anywhere in public space. This was true until the man erdognan came in power.

Ok heres an exsample, Turkey isnt only secular but also laicistic which is the strict separation between state and religion, the women with headscarve couldnt attend universities in Turkey but they could do so in France which is also laicistic, does that make France a religious state?

What he and his wife is doing does matter because he and his wife is doing that in their official visits. A PM getting photographed in prayer while on an official visit holds a lot of symbolic meaning. Erdognan is making a statement that he is deeply religious and this religious man is shaping up Turkey in his image. He is not countering Ataturk, he is replacing him.

Yeah replacing him...

Do you think replacing Atatürk is that easy?

And I doubt a polytheist would feel safe in Turkey as compared to Israel.

Why not elaborate pls.

Military did coup to uphold the ideals of Ataturk. And will the constitution remain the same when Ataturk occupies 90% and more of Turkish parliament. The man is more smart than that. He is slowly and slowly invoking Islam.

At this rate Turkey will be islamist in 200 years.

All his civil laws, the laws that govern society are opposite to secularism.

Its easy to come up with claim, show me the particular law that isnt conform with constitution or secularism.

You agree that he is using religion to use it to get votes. This would have been normal thing in say Pakistan which is an openly Islamic country. But a politician demanding votes on basis of religion in a secular country is ironic.

Source: American Sailors attacked in Turkey | Page 6

Many people arent voting for his religious agenda but the fact that he did many good things for the counry, there are even seculars voting for him for the simple fact that there is no good alternative to him, the islamist card is just for brownie points.

Lets hear it from a hardcore secularist why people are voting for Erdogan, dont skip the video hes explaining very well.

And the fact that he is winning every election with thumping majority also proves that the idea of secularism is not so strong in Turkish society as you would like to believe.

Well hes getting around 50% of votes, it doesnt mean that everyone whos voting for him is anti secular.

There was a poll in Turkey done by Ministry of Religious affairs where around 90% supported the current secular democratic republic and around 60 or 70% (im not sure about exact number) who said that laicite is the guarantee of religious freedom.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Ok heres an exsample, Turkey isnt only secular but also laicistic which is the strict separation between state and religion, the women with headscarve couldnt attend universities in Turkey but they could do so in France which is also laicistic, does that make France a religious state?

Yeah replacing him...

View attachment 152990

Do you think replacing Atatürk is that easy?

Why not elaborate pls.

At this rate Turkey will be islamist in 200 years.

Its easy to come up with claim, show me the particular law that isnt conform with constitution or secularism.

Many people arent voting for his religious agenda but the fact that he did many good things for the counry, there are even seculars voting for him for the simple fact that there is no good alternative to him, the islamist card is just for brownie points.

Lets hear it from a hardcore secularist why people are voting for Erdogan, dont skip the video hes explaining very well.

Well hes getting around 50% of votes, it doesnt mean that everyone whos voting for him is anti secular.

There was a poll in Turkey done by Ministry of Religious affairs where around 90% supported the current secular democratic republic and around 60 or 70% (im not sure about exact number) who said that laicite is the guarantee of religious freedom.

1. Secularism in itself means the separation of church and state. France is a secular state but at present the entire EU is going through a lacunae. They are scared to touch anything that has to do with Islam. France fined women wearing burkhas, what happened? Secular people like you called it an attack on religious freedom. Saudi Arabia on the other hand busts down mosques and builds malls in their country and not murmur of protest in islamic world. The France example is wrong because France, UK etc. are scared little cats now. In UK you can have muslims do protest march, but it is banned for Christians.

Turkey is slowly but surely returning to Islamic era.

2. 100 years ago the question would have been "Do you think it is so easy to overthrow the Ottomans?"

3. There has been attacks on religious minorities in Turkey. And I don't mean the urban centres but Turkey which includes urban, rural, rich and poor sections all.

4. Rather than 200 I think it would be 20. Firstly the man won his elections on a religious drive, something no Turk can deny. His overwhelming victory proves that Turks have no issue with his open flaunting of religion. Secondly his foreign policies are dictated arbitarily. It could be a co-incidence but since erdognan came to power relations between Turkey and Israel, west has deteriorated.

5. The allowance of veils in itself is against your secular constitution.

6. But why the need to play the islamist card if he is such a good leader? Isn't it against the law to demand votes in name of religion? He is playing the muslim card to bolster support among the masses. And the fact that the masses are happy to see a "muslim" PM instead of a secular one defeats the claim that Turkey by nature is secular.

7. I believe he is getting much more than 50% votes.

 

[xenon54 out]

1. Secularism in itself means the separation of church and state. France is a secular state but at present the entire EU is going through a lacunae. They are scared to touch anything that has to do with Islam. France fined women wearing burkhas, what happened? Secular people like you called it an attack on religious freedom. Saudi Arabia on the other hand busts down mosques and builds malls in their country and not murmur of protest in islamic world. The France example is wrong because France, UK etc. are scared little cats now. In UK you can have muslims do protest march, but it is banned for Christians.

Secularism and Laicite are similar but there are still some differences, Secularism also applies to peoples thinking but laicite is a policy and Turkey is one of few countrys that is declared as a laicist state.

Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Laïcité - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. There has been attacks on religious minorities in Turkey. And I don't mean the urban centres but Turkey which includes urban, rural, rich and poor sections all.

There are few countrys where there arent small attacks on minoritys.

4. Rather than 200 I think it would be 20. Firstly the man won his elections on a religious drive, something no Turk can deny. His overwhelming victory proves that Turks have no issue with his open flaunting of religion.

You didnt watched the video, whats the point in discussing with you when you are going to ignore my arguments? The reason for Erdogan victory is much much more than just religion, think a little bit critical.

Secondly his foreign policies are dictated arbitarily. It could be a co-incidence but since erdognan came to power relations between Turkey and Israel, west has deteriorated.

Relation with west is the same as always, in 70s it was much worse when a secular president was on power, Erdogan started the EU negotiations and applied many laws as EU adaption, just for your info.

5. The allowance of veils in itself is against your secular constitution.

No its not, how is headscarve against secularism? Secularism doesnt mean anti religious.

But lets hear it from Erdogan himself.

“Secularism is definitely not atheism. I, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, am Muslim, not secular. But I am the prime minister of a secular country. In a secular regime people have the freedom to be religious or not,” he continued. “Don’t be afraid of secularism. I hope the new regime in Egypt will be secular.”

“Don’t Be Afraid Of Secularism...” How Erdogan’s Egypt Tour Looks In Turkey

6. But why the need to play the islamist card if he is such a good leader? Isn't it against the law to demand votes in name of religion? He is playing the muslim card to bolster support among the masses. And the fact that the masses are happy to see a "muslim" PM instead of a secular one defeats the claim that Turkey by nature is secular.

He isnt demanding votes for religion but playing conservative card to impress conservatives.
All the figures i showed you prove my point that Turks are perfectly comfortable with a secular state otherwise Erdogan would have abolished the constitution long ago.

7. I believe he is getting much more than 50% votes.

Believe in whatever you want but stop acting the smartass if you have no clue.

All your claims are refuted, are you still going to ignore my aswers and start repeating yourseld all over again? I just wanna know if its worth to waste my time any further on you.

 

[-SINAN-]

@Sinan is native, ask him if anything im saying is wrong here.

Mate, i think you replying to an illiterate Indian as a lot of them are in my ignore list and i can't see your quote from him....

I say, don't waste your time with these guys....

 

[Indian Patriot]

Secularism and Laicite are similar but there are still some differences, Secularism also applies to peoples thinking but laicite is a policy and Turkey is one of few countrys that is declared as a laicist state.

Secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Laïcité - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are few countrys where there arent small attacks on minoritys.

You didnt watched the video, whats the point in discussing with you when you are going to ignore my arguments? The reason for Erdogan victory is much much more than just religion, think a little bit critical.

Relation with west is the same as always, in 70s it was much worse when a secular president was on power, Erdogan started the EU negotiations and applied many laws as EU adaption, just for your info.

No its not, how is headscarve against secularism? Secularism doesnt mean anti religious.

But lets hear it from Erdogan himself.

“Don’t Be Afraid Of Secularism...” How Erdogan’s Egypt Tour Looks In Turkey

He isnt demanding votes for religion but playing conservative card to impress conservatives.
All the figures i showed you prove my point that Turks are perfectly comfortable with a secular state otherwise Erdogan would have abolished the constitution long ago.

Believe in whatever you want but stop acting the smartass if you have no clue.

All your claims are refuted, are you still going to ignore my aswers and start repeating yourseld all over again? I just wanna know if its worth to waste my time any further on you.

1 A secular constitution means separation of state and religion. If you want to add more words to it then its fine by me.

2. Do these small attacks on minorities go punished or unpunished, are they condemned or not.

3. I am not saying the man may not have merits. Why is it so hard for you to understand a simple English sentence?

I am asking what is the need for a talented man like him to play the religious card? If he is talented then let his talent speak. Would it have been different if he was a Jew?

4. For your info EU is dead opposed to Turkey joining the Union because they are dead against erdognan's islamisation policy. I don't know what they teach in Turkey but you seem cut off from reality.

5. Secularism does not mean anti-religious. It means separation of state and religion. A secular PM of a secular Republic may pray all he wish in his private space, But during office and on official visits he cannot express anything religious. You seem to have no understanding about the word secularism.

6. If conservatives are "few" in number then he does not have to impress them. Why does a cunning politician like him who is also immensely talented like you say so intent on pleasing a few conservatives? You are repeatedly dodging this question. If erdognan stops pleasing the conservatives will he lose on power or is erdognan a religious-conservative himself?

I have fully explained and refuted all your claims which you pretend are Facts. Your so called arguments are nothing but self-contradictory statements which you are confused on how to defend. Don't be a smart *** by calling names to others. You are obviously skirting the questions I asked and putting up random videos and links which have no relevance here.

 

[xenon54 out]

2. Do these small attacks on minorities go punished or unpunished, are they condemned or not.

Yes everybody doing crime gets punished according to law, why are you asking such silly question in the first place?

I am asking what is the need for a talented man like him to play the religious card? If he is talented then let his talent speak. Would it have been different if he was a Jew?

More votes its that simple.

4. For your info EU is dead opposed to Turkey joining the Union because they are dead against erdognan's islamisation policy. I don't know what they teach in Turkey but you seem cut off from reality.

Germany and France oppose Turkey because Turkey as the biggest country would cause a power shift, thats why UK is pushing for Turkish membership.

5. Secularism does not mean anti-religious. It means separation of state and religion. A secular PM of a secular Republic may pray all he wish in his private space, But during office and on official visits he cannot express anything religious. You seem to have no understanding about the word secularism.

Lol where did you read this rule or just invented it to sustain your weak arguments?

6. If conservatives are "few" in number then he does not have to impress them. Why does a cunning politician like him who is also immensely talented like you say so intent on pleasing a few conservatives? You are repeatedly dodging this question. If erdognan stops pleasing the conservatives will he lose on power or is erdognan a religious-conservative himself?

I didnt claim they are few, they just arent extremists but normal people like you and me (mostly) thats why almost 90% of Turkish population doesnt want sharia.

Your so called arguments are nothing but self-contradictory statements which you are confused on how to defend.

You refuted nothing but only made up some claims which got answered backed up by sources in contrary to your replies.

You are obviously skirting the questions I asked and putting up random videos and links which have no relevance here.

I answered every single question of you but you left many of my questions unanswered.

You just cant accept that you got proven wrong, you try to start a discussion while you have no clue about the basics of Turkish politics of society.
Stop trying to is save your face after you raised your mouth so big in previous pages, everyone reading our conversation will see who is the one acting smart in topics he has no clue about.
You are just wasting my time, its obvious you cant accept that you are wrong so your bringing up random question that have nothing to do with topic, im gonna end this conversation now, it doesnt make sense to talk to someone with such a thick head, get over your ego and stop trying to teach me about my country.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Yes everybody doing crime gets punished according to law, why are you asking such silly question in the first place?

More votes its that simple.

Germany and France oppose Turkey because Turkey as the biggest country would cause a power shift, thats why UK is pushing for Turkish membership.

Lol where did you read this rule or just invented it to sustain your weak arguments?

I didnt claim they are few, they just arent extremists but normal people like you and me (mostly) thats why almost 90% of Turkish population doesnt want sharia.

You refuted nothing but only made up some claims which got answered backed up by sources in contrary to your replies.

I answered every single question of you but you left many of my questions unanswered.

You just cant accept that you got proven wrong, you try to start a discussion while you have no clue about the basics of Turkish politics of society.
Stop trying to is save your face after you raised your mouth so big in previous pages, everyone reading our conversation will see who is the one acting smart in topics he has no clue about.
You are just wasting my time, its obvious you cant accept that you are wrong so your bringing up random question that have nothing to do with topic, im gonna end this conversation now, it doesnt make sense to talk to someone with such a thick head, get over your ego and stop trying to teach me about my country.

1. Because in Islamic countries like Pakistan the religious minorities don't have much legal rights.

2. The whole thing is that. Votes, but why does he need to cater to conservatives for votes?

Turkey according to you is a secular society. Fine let us agree for the time being.

Now a secular society will demand a PM who delivers and is a very competent man. You have said that erdognan is a good leader. Let's accept that as well. He maybe a deeply religious man but as long as he keeps his religion personal then it does not matter. Now the problem is why is erdognan catering to the conservatives for more votes? Are the conservatives that many in number that their votes or lack of votes can make a difference at Ankara? Or the regular citizens of Turkey want to see a good PM who is deeply religious.

3. Germany and France won't fear Turkey. LOL! Majority of Turks are living as immigrants and surviving on welfare in Germany. Germany has one of the largest, if not the largest, Turkish immigrant population. Though they might obviously fear more influx of illegal Turks inside their borders if EU allows Turkey.

4. You obviously don't have a clue about secularism. Next you will find nothing wrong if Erdognan sanctions a cheque to fund a mosque.

5. I am not talking about "sharia". I am talking about the erosion of the secular state as imagined by Ataturk. For a man like you who displays the portrait of Ataturk you clearly have not read him or understood him.

6. Sources of what? Verified by who? There are thousands of sources on the internet claiming a thousand things.

7. Yea, start running away after you have repeated your lines over and over again.

The final points here are very simple and which you ignored.

- Erdognan is a deeply religious leader who makes no pretence about being secular because he is NOT
- The appeasing of conservatives by Erdognan is proof that Turkish society is getting more Islamic.
- The growing number of votes over successive elections clearly shows that Turkish society, atleast a significant percentage, is no longer in love with secularism.

 

[usernameless]

@Indian Patriot
Your knowledge about Turkey is even less than that of a non-native Turk, so spare us your fairy tales about Turkey becoming 'islamic'. As an agnost, i'd at the moment rather vote for akp than any party in Turkey, not only because Erdogan is actually building up the country, but also because there is no viable opposition at the moment. The chp, which is known for protecting secularism, even hands out headscarves and recently opened a prayer hall in one of their offices. The point is, hardcore secularism and hardcore fundamentalism wont work in Turkey, a middle path has to be found, which akp is succeeding at while the opposition probably will be forced eventually to change here and there to become attractive again. If you think only beards and headscarves are voting for akp, you're dead wrong. And if you think akp supporters rather want sharia, remove democracy and remove Ataturk's legacy, then you're delusioned beyond recognition. The opposition should come up with better strategies and a change in leadership (and maybe ideology too) that will attract more people because they are basically giving a free ride to akp since many years.

Erdogan is not an angel, but despite all the problems we should look at the facts too. He has done a lot for Turkey, and i think everybody knows that by now already. For me, Erdogan seems a bit familiar to South Korea's Park Chung Hee, the father of current president of south Korea. He was clearly dictatorial compared to Erdogan, but he did bring wealth and progress through his 5 years development plan (which he borrowed/copied from Pakistanis if im not wrong). I noticed from young Koreans that he is hated for his harsh rule at that time, but without him South Korea probably wouldnt have been the same, so these same Koreans do appreciate the economy now. Erdogan, despite not being that dictatorial, is also underappreciated while hopefully the next generation will feel more glad for the progress he brought.

I even begin to suspect that all this 'Turkey becoming islamic' '2nd Iran = Turkey' 'Ataturk's legacy is being replaced' etc. kind of remarks (with western media influence behind it) has been invented to create negative image of Turkey out of jealousy or hate and to influence anti-Erdogan Turks to riot against him, maybe even overthrow through coup. General rule is; as long as others increasingly throw mud at you and object against anything you do, it usually means you are on the right path.

I know you will write back, but is it worth it to make yourself look like a clown, i mean expert on Turks and Turkey? You're just a generic non-Turk that has been fed with too much anti-Turkey/Erdogan stuff and so even ignore what Turks themselves have to say.

 

[Indian Patriot]

@Indian Patriot
Your knowledge about Turkey is even less than that of a non-native Turk, so spare us your fairy tales about Turkey becoming 'islamic'. As an agnost, i'd at the moment rather vote for akp than any party in Turkey, not only because Erdogan is actually building up the country, but also because there is no viable opposition at the moment. The chp, which is known for protecting secularism, even hands out headscarves and recently opened a prayer hall in one of their offices. The point is, hardcore secularism and hardcore fundamentalism wont work in Turkey, a middle path has to be found, which akp is succeeding at while the opposition probably will be forced eventually to change here and there to become attractive again. If you think only beards and headscarves are voting for akp, you're dead wrong. And if you think akp supporters rather want sharia, remove democracy and remove Ataturk's legacy, then you're delusioned beyond recognition. The opposition should come up with better strategies and a change in leadership (and maybe ideology too) that will attract more people because they are basically giving a free ride to akp since many years.

Erdogan is not an angel, but despite all the problems we should look at the facts too. He has done a lot for Turkey, and i think everybody knows that by now already. For me, Erdogan seems a bit familiar to South Korea's Park Chung Hee, the father of current president of south Korea. He was clearly dictatorial compared to Erdogan, but he did bring wealth and progress through his 5 years development plan (which he borrowed/copied from Pakistanis if im not wrong). I noticed from young Koreans that he is hated for his harsh rule at that time, but without him South Korea probably wouldnt have been the same, so these same Koreans do appreciate the economy now. Erdogan, despite not being that dictatorial, is also underappreciated while hopefully the next generation will feel more glad for the progress he brought.

I even begin to suspect that all this 'Turkey becoming islamic' '2nd Iran = Turkey' 'Ataturk's legacy is being replaced' etc. kind of remarks (with western media influence behind it) has been invented to create negative image of Turkey out of jealousy or hate and to influence anti-Erdogan Turks to riot against him, maybe even overthrow through coup. General rule is; as long as others increasingly throw mud at you and object against anything you do, it usually means you are on the right path.

Why am I not surprised with that tone and the usual defense of the indefensible.

Do you guys understand the difference between a non-secular state and a sharia state or are you seriously that dumb? Edognan not only denounces long-term ally Israel over Palestine but even risked confrontation by sending a flotilla. What is the love for Palestine other than emotional issues? He maintains a stony silence on ISIS. Instead trying to put blame on Kurds for the Iraqi mess, LOL!!

You to are missing the same point here. I am not denying the "greatness" of Erdognan, what I want to know is why does a PM feel the need to pamper the conservatives?

How hard is it to understand such a simple question?

I am asking why is there a need for Erdognan to pamper and appease conservatives. Are the conservatives too many a number to ignore, are the conservatives very influential, what is the reason behind appealing to conservatives. Is he trying to sell them the dream of a return to ottoman glory? There has to be some logic behind his actions right. What is that logic?

 

[usernameless]

Why am I not surprised with that tone and the usual defense of the indefensible.

Do you guys understand the difference between a non-secular state and a sharia state or are you seriously that dumb? Edognan not only denounces long-term ally Israel over Palestine but even risked confrontation by sending a flotilla. What is the love for Palestine other than emotional issues? He maintains a stony silence on ISIS. Instead trying to put blame on Kurds for the Iraqi mess, LOL!!

You to are missing the same point here. I am not denying the "greatness" of Erdognan, what I want to know is why does a PM feel the need to pamper the conservatives?

How hard is it to understand such a simple question?

I am asking why is there a need for Erdognan to pamper and appease conservatives. Are the conservatives too many a number to ignore, are the conservatives very influential, what is the reason behind appealing to conservatives. Is he trying to sell them the dream of a return to ottoman glory? There has to be some logic behind his actions right. What is that logic?

So you think conservative people should to be ignored? Why should they be ignored then? I dont get your logic. Anyway send a complaintment letter to Erdogan

You're skipping a whole post and jump on various off topic topics to desperately score brownie points, so it's best for me to 'concede defeat', save time and focus on important stuff.

 

[Indian Patriot]

So you think conservative people should to be ignored? Why should they be ignored then? I dont get your logic. Anyway send a complaintment letter to Erdogan

You're skipping a whole post and jump on various off topic topics to desperately score brownie points, so it's best for me to 'concede defeat', save time and focus on important stuff.

A great leader boasts about his achievements, not his religious or ethnic background. Erdognan is playing the religious card back home beacuse it obviously matters and matters much more than Turks would like to admit.

My first comment here was that the attack on Americans is a reflection of Erdognan's anti-west policies. Then some turks jumped in, it was a carpet-sherbet market and things somehow slowly started getting back to normal.

 

[usernameless]

A great leader boasts about his achievements, not his religious or ethnic background. Erdognan is playing the religious card back home beacuse it obviously matters and matters much more than Turks would like to admit.

My first comment here was that the attack on Americans is a reflection of Erdognan's anti-west policies. Then some turks jumped in, it was a carpet-sherbet market and things somehow slowly started getting back to normal.

Yeah, the people voted for him multiple times for a decade just because of his religion and not because of the growth and achievements in the country. You think Turks are that retarded to vote for him, despite his religion, if he didnt bring bread to the table?

Sure he plays the islamic card, wouldnt certain Indian parties use the Hindu card?
The problem is, you guys think that using the islamic card translates to Turkey eventually becoming a country with sharia and nullifying Ataturk's legacy. Why so balck and white? What logic is that?