Shiny Capstar
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Right now it is a war for your national survival, why should the Americans have to pay you to fight for that?
(American Perspective) Time Is Short as U.S. Presses a Reluctant Pakistan
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Right now it is a war for your national survival, why should the Americans have to pay you to fight for that?
muse
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Capstar
For whatever reason, majorities of Pakistanis do not seem to view this as a war for their own survival - but they cannot be blamed entirely for this - everyone and trheir mother is offering to help Pakistan in this fight, so they think that it's a free ride and maybe they make some money from it as well -
How can one hope to focus their mind to the task at hand? Well, what seems to be getting their way? If it money, it should be taken off the table, is it the promise of superior weaponry? Well, that too should be off the table, Trade liberalisation? Ok, take that off the table as well, More Visas for the escaping well to do?, Ok, off the table as well.
Help Pakistan focus - and Pakistan may have all this and more, much more -- after the job is done.
It may seem to some as a hard or unpatriotic position to take, the opposite is true, it is a most patriotic position to take, it is right and good. You will notice some actually think it's a great thing that the world is paying attention to Pakistan, and why not, after all it is threatening to commit suicide, but now it's time to call that bluff and in doing so allow sobriety to reign and responsibility to rule. Allow Pakistan to get with the program, allow it to find in itself the will it needs to mature and choose to survive.
For whatever reason, majorities of Pakistanis do not seem to view this as a war for their own survival - but they cannot be blamed entirely for this - everyone and trheir mother is offering to help Pakistan in this fight, so they think that it's a free ride and maybe they make some money from it as well -
How can one hope to focus their mind to the task at hand? Well, what seems to be getting their way? If it money, it should be taken off the table, is it the promise of superior weaponry? Well, that too should be off the table, Trade liberalisation? Ok, take that off the table as well, More Visas for the escaping well to do?, Ok, off the table as well.
Help Pakistan focus - and Pakistan may have all this and more, much more -- after the job is done.
It may seem to some as a hard or unpatriotic position to take, the opposite is true, it is a most patriotic position to take, it is right and good. You will notice some actually think it's a great thing that the world is paying attention to Pakistan, and why not, after all it is threatening to commit suicide, but now it's time to call that bluff and in doing so allow sobriety to reign and responsibility to rule. Allow Pakistan to get with the program, allow it to find in itself the will it needs to mature and choose to survive.
notorious_eagle
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Well they are the ones who started this bloodly damnn war and its about time they pay for it. We are loosing $6 billion a year from this war, and than they have the nerve to say that they gave us $10 billion
. I still wouldnt call this war a fight for our national survival, we can leave the tribal areas and let them rule it like they were doing before.
S-2
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"How can one hope to focus their mind to the task at hand? Well, what seems to be getting their way? If it money, it should be taken off the table, is it the promise of superior weaponry? Well, that too should be off the table, Trade liberalisation? Ok, take that off the table as well, More Visas for the escaping well to do?, Ok, off the table as well.
Help Pakistan focus - and Pakistan may have all this and more, much more -- after the job is done."
Beautiful sentiment and you're absolutely correct but no can do.
The first reaction of the GoP to this dose of harsh medicine will be to cut off Afghanistan from the east/south. We'll be forced to supply, feed, equip a population, it's army, and our armies through the north or Iran.
Maybe. Maybe not. Some stuff will go through, no doubt. Enough to meet our current or planned objectives? I don't know. Alternatives? I don't know. So unless somebody knows, this isn't feasible.
If we "know" our alternatives and do administer this medicine, it will cause the aforementioned reaction almost as sure as the sun rises in the east-to no avail for Pakistan as we'd already slipped the net. After that who knows?
What else? Military and civil aid is obvious. Trade sanctions? Generalized airstrikes along the border instead of PREDATOR? War? Somewhere on that slippery slope is the leverage point for your armies to fight of our accord.
Should Pakistan choose, of course, it is free to fight these men of its own accord and consistent with its needs at any time.
That would be really neat.
Three nations hold the answers to NATO's questions-India (possibly), Iran, and Russia. Sorta ironic that what goes around often comes around...
Help Pakistan focus - and Pakistan may have all this and more, much more -- after the job is done."
Beautiful sentiment and you're absolutely correct but no can do.
The first reaction of the GoP to this dose of harsh medicine will be to cut off Afghanistan from the east/south. We'll be forced to supply, feed, equip a population, it's army, and our armies through the north or Iran.
Maybe. Maybe not. Some stuff will go through, no doubt. Enough to meet our current or planned objectives? I don't know. Alternatives? I don't know. So unless somebody knows, this isn't feasible.
If we "know" our alternatives and do administer this medicine, it will cause the aforementioned reaction almost as sure as the sun rises in the east-to no avail for Pakistan as we'd already slipped the net. After that who knows?
What else? Military and civil aid is obvious. Trade sanctions? Generalized airstrikes along the border instead of PREDATOR? War? Somewhere on that slippery slope is the leverage point for your armies to fight of our accord.
Should Pakistan choose, of course, it is free to fight these men of its own accord and consistent with its needs at any time.
That would be really neat.
Three nations hold the answers to NATO's questions-India (possibly), Iran, and Russia. Sorta ironic that what goes around often comes around...
muse
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If The US began buying Afghan produce and processing the produce, I think the Afghan economy would get an instant boost, it will bring much needed confidence to the ordinary Afghan -- but all these are long term projects.
Too bad, I suppose Pakistan will continue to be treated like an adolescent with emotional problems - whereas it is a giant, if only it would awaken from the islamist spell it has fallen under.
S-2
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Let's assume for a moment that Iran used Chabahar as some ice-breaker with the west. I mentioned India and Russia as both have some leverage with Iran that could be exploited...PERHAPS.
The next issue becomes more cold-blooded. First we draw supplies through Iran but continue aid. What's some senator's reaction from Kansas or S. Dakota? Depends on what your army's doing. Next to nothing and we're out from underneath the Karachi leverage?
Time to cut the aid life-tube, correct? Who's got the moral guts to stand up and say,
"Hey, we think you're douche-bag enemies whom we ain't paying a red cent to anymore until you get that grand army up off it's azz!" (Sorry, I've been watching my highly-recommended RANGER promo video in land forces to which all those with a TRUE sense of American humor will stop by, watch, and profusely thank me because it beats the sh!t out of sappy afghan photos).
We'd immediately be bombarded with images of starving Pakistani children while our talking heads would be mumbling some nonsense about an enflamed "muslim street". As Maggie admonished ol' George Sr., we'd likely go all "wobbly" with self-remorse.
That, btw, is all necessary to the next step-the reinstitution of all aid with scenes of made-up hurt feelings and all-around bonhomie' once more...
...until you STILL don't move west. At this point we're REALLY ready to act and do.
Does it matter? Dunno. The question by then will be have you survived your bout with cancer? If so, you'll face this issue. If not, we'll be nuking taliban masters of the keys.
NO NUKES FOR TALIBUNNIES. NO. NO. NO!
Honestly Muse, I think your army is fine in the east. It seems the war is heading in their direction anyway. One will meet the other sooner or later. Question is whether it'll be with bullets or hugs when this eventually happens?
The next issue becomes more cold-blooded. First we draw supplies through Iran but continue aid. What's some senator's reaction from Kansas or S. Dakota? Depends on what your army's doing. Next to nothing and we're out from underneath the Karachi leverage?
Time to cut the aid life-tube, correct? Who's got the moral guts to stand up and say,
"Hey, we think you're douche-bag enemies whom we ain't paying a red cent to anymore until you get that grand army up off it's azz!" (Sorry, I've been watching my highly-recommended RANGER promo video in land forces to which all those with a TRUE sense of American humor will stop by, watch, and profusely thank me because it beats the sh!t out of sappy afghan photos).
We'd immediately be bombarded with images of starving Pakistani children while our talking heads would be mumbling some nonsense about an enflamed "muslim street". As Maggie admonished ol' George Sr., we'd likely go all "wobbly" with self-remorse.
That, btw, is all necessary to the next step-the reinstitution of all aid with scenes of made-up hurt feelings and all-around bonhomie' once more...
...until you STILL don't move west. At this point we're REALLY ready to act and do.
Does it matter? Dunno. The question by then will be have you survived your bout with cancer? If so, you'll face this issue. If not, we'll be nuking taliban masters of the keys.
NO NUKES FOR TALIBUNNIES. NO. NO. NO!
Honestly Muse, I think your army is fine in the east. It seems the war is heading in their direction anyway. One will meet the other sooner or later. Question is whether it'll be with bullets or hugs when this eventually happens?
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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That's perfectly fine - but that also automatically implies Pakistan will act in accordance with its interests in Afghanistan, which means the US leaves.
"Leave alone" holds no meaning so long as NATO continues to maintain a presence in Afghanistan, since their presence alone changes the dynamics and drives events.
I'm all for Pakistan figuring out 'fight or flight' in conjunction with a complete disengagement of the US from the region, with the caveat that nukes and territory will not be used by AQ or any other organization against the West.
S-2
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The race is on. Will Pakistan collapse of it's internal insurgency before America leaves Afghanistan? If not, can Pakistan transfer the bloodlust ambitions of these militants and their accrued successes to date inside your nation towards, instead, Afghanistan?
OTOH if you lose your nation it won't matter and we'll be dealing instead with a taliban gov't of Islamabad. How we do so will prove interesting.
OTOH if you lose your nation it won't matter and we'll be dealing instead with a taliban gov't of Islamabad. How we do so will prove interesting.
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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jeypore
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We don't lose the nation either way S-2, we adapt.
The power center merely shifts.
The Taliban won't take over Islamabad - an 'Islamic Revolution' will likely be, ahem, assisted in 'revolutionizing Pakistan'.
Yes entertainment won't be at the local cinemaplex, but at the stadium with all the beheadings!!!!
Great adaptation, most countries are pondering of going forward, while Pakistan will be the champion of going back to the 7th century.
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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Oh not at all - beheadings at the stadium will be exactly (though not literally) what the 'Islamic Revolution' will be designed to prevent.
The politically active Mullah parties do have some utility you know ..
I hope you realize this is all fanciful speculation though ..
Its absurd to even imagine that a modest nation of 167 million souls could fall into the hands of religious extremists. First of all Talibans are not seen as our saviors nor rescuers but the majority considers them as extremists, enemies of Islam.
There's a reason islamic parties never won more than 11% of votes in any election of nations 60 year of existence and they'll never ever get majority in two largest provinces of Pakistan, Punjab and Sindh. So the only way of Talibunnies to grab power is by force and that too is unlikely with a modest PA.
Pakistan, though a developping country has always supported capitalism and western ideology and life style. Imagine Pakistani youth without music or entertainment, Pakistani women without job or access to modern education.
Even if the Talibunnies ceized power, it will be shortlived. I'm sure we'll see a dead mullah hanging on every tree all over the country within weeks.
Pakistani's are not extremists or radicals, the ones supporting that ideology are victoms of poverty and pessimism, usually underdevelloped in every sense.
There's a reason islamic parties never won more than 11% of votes in any election of nations 60 year of existence and they'll never ever get majority in two largest provinces of Pakistan, Punjab and Sindh. So the only way of Talibunnies to grab power is by force and that too is unlikely with a modest PA.
Pakistan, though a developping country has always supported capitalism and western ideology and life style. Imagine Pakistani youth without music or entertainment, Pakistani women without job or access to modern education.
Even if the Talibunnies ceized power, it will be shortlived. I'm sure we'll see a dead mullah hanging on every tree all over the country within weeks.
Pakistani's are not extremists or radicals, the ones supporting that ideology are victoms of poverty and pessimism, usually underdevelloped in every sense.
muse
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Indeed it would be absurd -- now let me ask you, isn't it absurd that we have lost Swat? Did you ever imagine that it ? And FATA, isn't that also absurd that we would lose it as well?? Isn't it absurd that Army action against Islamist terrorist failed in Swat and that we are OK with that? Yeah, it's absurd but our reality and the absurd no longer share borders.
the reality is both swat and FATA are lost.
We, as AM, puts it, "adapt" -- I suppose we have little option but to dress up our compulsions.
Pakistan a generally Western orientation? Someone forget to get that memo to most Pakistanis.
What unfortunately most Pakistanis are is confused and angry. They just can't seem to make sense of the world around them and their place in that world. No point suggesting that Taliban won't win elections, they after all, are not about elections - who elected baitullah or Haji Muslim Khan or Fazullah? Are these figments of imaginations?
No, neo, we have a problem, a serious one and we only make the problem worse when we deny we even have a problem.
the reality is both swat and FATA are lost.
We, as AM, puts it, "adapt" -- I suppose we have little option but to dress up our compulsions.
Pakistan a generally Western orientation? Someone forget to get that memo to most Pakistanis.
What unfortunately most Pakistanis are is confused and angry. They just can't seem to make sense of the world around them and their place in that world. No point suggesting that Taliban won't win elections, they after all, are not about elections - who elected baitullah or Haji Muslim Khan or Fazullah? Are these figments of imaginations?
No, neo, we have a problem, a serious one and we only make the problem worse when we deny we even have a problem.
Kasrkin
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"the reality is both swat and FATA are lost..."
The reality is that this is not the whole picture. Just a convenient and not very accurate over-simplification only designed to facilitate what you want to believe. Yes we have a problem in FATA and Swat, but the fact of the matter is that people in both these places are probably the most conservative in Pakistan, with the least amount of exposure and cultural maturity in terms of civic obligations and also lacking in economic development, not to mention strong political leadership. On the other hand in the rest of Pakistan, it is impossible for the Taliban to take over on the basis of suicide bombings and sabotage alone. Karachi is a good example if you’d ever care to look, where these groups have found it increasingly hard to establish themselves in the underworld or openly. Lahore too is increasingly hosting resentment in light of the repeated bombings and the belief that our rivals are encouraging a ‘failed state’ perception thus all this terrorism. Experts more informed and experienced than you or I have said that a Taliban takeover is extremely unlikely, and yet you insist on it like it is inevitable and that you’re the only man here capable of seeing it. You are not being fair to us and yourself and your country. The Taliban cannot mount cohesive military operations away from their home field, and neither can the tribes. There are great many gaps in our understanding of the situation, we have to acknowledge this but you are hoping to construct every ambiguity as a worst potential case scenario and even beyond by distorting or negating what is known or established information. No one is crazy enough to say we don’t have a problem Muse, at least not here. But you are taking an all encompassing stand which leaves little room for dispassionate debate and scrutiny of Pakistan’s situation and future prospects. I’m afraid you’re being very selective with the truth and the result, contrary to what you might feel, is not very constructive brother.
The reality is that this is not the whole picture. Just a convenient and not very accurate over-simplification only designed to facilitate what you want to believe. Yes we have a problem in FATA and Swat, but the fact of the matter is that people in both these places are probably the most conservative in Pakistan, with the least amount of exposure and cultural maturity in terms of civic obligations and also lacking in economic development, not to mention strong political leadership. On the other hand in the rest of Pakistan, it is impossible for the Taliban to take over on the basis of suicide bombings and sabotage alone. Karachi is a good example if you’d ever care to look, where these groups have found it increasingly hard to establish themselves in the underworld or openly. Lahore too is increasingly hosting resentment in light of the repeated bombings and the belief that our rivals are encouraging a ‘failed state’ perception thus all this terrorism. Experts more informed and experienced than you or I have said that a Taliban takeover is extremely unlikely, and yet you insist on it like it is inevitable and that you’re the only man here capable of seeing it. You are not being fair to us and yourself and your country. The Taliban cannot mount cohesive military operations away from their home field, and neither can the tribes. There are great many gaps in our understanding of the situation, we have to acknowledge this but you are hoping to construct every ambiguity as a worst potential case scenario and even beyond by distorting or negating what is known or established information. No one is crazy enough to say we don’t have a problem Muse, at least not here. But you are taking an all encompassing stand which leaves little room for dispassionate debate and scrutiny of Pakistan’s situation and future prospects. I’m afraid you’re being very selective with the truth and the result, contrary to what you might feel, is not very constructive brother.
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muse
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Gentle Kasrkin
No one is suggesting that whatever point of view is the whole picture, however; you are entitled to your own point of view. You choose to describe the people of swat who made a living of tourists as among the most conservative, I would take issue on that count - and I would ask since when is conservative and talib the same thing?
A major difference in our outlook is that to you and others, the situation is open to debate, to me, my mind is made up, I know where I stand and I know it is not where the wind is blowing, but that's just me, it's who I am.
Similarly "experts" more informed than you and I suggest the exact opposite of what you suggest, indeed, we are in the destabilization phase and AM has pointed out that enablers will help push the situation over and we will "adapt".
Some Islamists may be happy with the events because they see opportunity in it and I don't deny that there is opportunity in it for them,m but Talib will not suffer these utopians, at least to my thinking.
A question to you, how fair are you being to Pakistan when after losing swat and FATA you still in debate mode?
Cohesive military operations?? I guess we will have ask the Fauj why their will to fight seems to have dissapated, and while we are at it, we may want to question how it is that the Talib managed to inflict more than 1500 fatalities and all the while cannot launch cohesive military operations - perhaps we may both learn a thing or two about cohesive military operations -- and ofcourse, their strategy is not to engage the Fauj head on, it is to demoralize and break the will of the population to resist -- see Nizam e adl in Swat - the pakistani government was forced to agree to the talib's terms - all the while some were debating, while Pakistan balkanized.
You know thaqt it's your right your perogative to debate as Pakistan is at risk - similartly it is my right to have made my mind up as to who the enemy is, what their ideas are and how they operate -- you, please take your time, but don't push your lethargy on me, I want Talib dead and I want their islamist enablers, dead - does that make a bad person?
I also realize that this will mean much blood but a free Pakistan, and i will take a Pakistan free of talib and his islamist enablers.
To me this not about being dispassionate, quite the opposite. Pakistan is at stake and some disagree, well that's OK by me but it will not change reality of talib, will it?
Where as some woul want to suggest that the probloem is not as dire as I think it is, in my opinon, this has the effect of putting the pakistani people of their guard, whereas alerting Pakistanis and raising their awareness of this menace is what is required.
I must admit that I am suprised, is that there are Indians and Americans and israelis and Turks and Russians about that you feel defensive about the subject? I cannot believe that you do not realize the menace and the danger, why should we not discuss this menace openly? will it reveal our weakness? isn't already too late for these kinds of excuses? To me it is.
At the heart of this problem is not Indians or Americans or Israeli or iranians or Saudis, it is us and our wededness to notions of Islam which are demeaning, indeed blasphemous, but we are nevertheless weded to them, at least not all of us.
No one is suggesting that whatever point of view is the whole picture, however; you are entitled to your own point of view. You choose to describe the people of swat who made a living of tourists as among the most conservative, I would take issue on that count - and I would ask since when is conservative and talib the same thing?
A major difference in our outlook is that to you and others, the situation is open to debate, to me, my mind is made up, I know where I stand and I know it is not where the wind is blowing, but that's just me, it's who I am.
Similarly "experts" more informed than you and I suggest the exact opposite of what you suggest, indeed, we are in the destabilization phase and AM has pointed out that enablers will help push the situation over and we will "adapt".
Some Islamists may be happy with the events because they see opportunity in it and I don't deny that there is opportunity in it for them,m but Talib will not suffer these utopians, at least to my thinking.
A question to you, how fair are you being to Pakistan when after losing swat and FATA you still in debate mode?
Cohesive military operations?? I guess we will have ask the Fauj why their will to fight seems to have dissapated, and while we are at it, we may want to question how it is that the Talib managed to inflict more than 1500 fatalities and all the while cannot launch cohesive military operations - perhaps we may both learn a thing or two about cohesive military operations -- and ofcourse, their strategy is not to engage the Fauj head on, it is to demoralize and break the will of the population to resist -- see Nizam e adl in Swat - the pakistani government was forced to agree to the talib's terms - all the while some were debating, while Pakistan balkanized.
You know thaqt it's your right your perogative to debate as Pakistan is at risk - similartly it is my right to have made my mind up as to who the enemy is, what their ideas are and how they operate -- you, please take your time, but don't push your lethargy on me, I want Talib dead and I want their islamist enablers, dead - does that make a bad person?
I also realize that this will mean much blood but a free Pakistan, and i will take a Pakistan free of talib and his islamist enablers.
To me this not about being dispassionate, quite the opposite. Pakistan is at stake and some disagree, well that's OK by me but it will not change reality of talib, will it?
Where as some woul want to suggest that the probloem is not as dire as I think it is, in my opinon, this has the effect of putting the pakistani people of their guard, whereas alerting Pakistanis and raising their awareness of this menace is what is required.
I must admit that I am suprised, is that there are Indians and Americans and israelis and Turks and Russians about that you feel defensive about the subject? I cannot believe that you do not realize the menace and the danger, why should we not discuss this menace openly? will it reveal our weakness? isn't already too late for these kinds of excuses? To me it is.
At the heart of this problem is not Indians or Americans or Israeli or iranians or Saudis, it is us and our wededness to notions of Islam which are demeaning, indeed blasphemous, but we are nevertheless weded to them, at least not all of us.
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