American Dare

[KashifAsrar]

Salahuddin!

You spout more BS then you actually know!

Mind the language Please!

Pakistan is powerful in terms of military but you are forgetting one crucial thing and that is "Strong Economy", which we lack.

Always remember this statement "Pride leads to failure".


Pakistan suffers from following things that make us weak:

- Pride.
- Corruption.
- Poor Economy. (And we still rely on Foreign Aid)
- Poor and mostly uneducated "Awaam" who can be easily exploited.
- Lack of internal Unity.

Very true. 100% right. Not only Pakistan but the entire OIC members suffer from these problems. Agreed. They ned to spend a lot more time and efforts to improve them to world standards. Particularly economy and education.

You say that US is facing troubles in Iraq but let me remind you that this is just a media hog-wosh and nothing else.

100% Wrong. Ground Realities are completely different from what you percieve.

But on the otherhand, Iraq has lost almost everything in this war. They have been conquered and humiliated and they are still not united and killing each other.

Now there are reports that Iraq might even dis-integrate in to 3 smaller nations. What good will this do to Iraqi people, if this really happens?

Kurdish leadership has already started to show signs of break-up.

Sir! you need to see the bigger picture of events that openly show how miserable we muslims really are!

But Did IRAQ invited USA to conquer it. To destroy it. To humiliate it. To divide it like Broasted Chicken. Then why Americans are there at the first place. All the reasons and Cases these Americans build against them was fabricated. It is a known FACT now. If America is strong then Does it mean that one should say ,'Sir tasleem-e-Kham hai, Jo Mizaag-e-Yaar main Aayey' !
Who will stand against these tyrants? Can you shed some light?

Pakistan - being more powerful then Iran and NK:

About Iran:

Iran enjoys following advantages:

- OIL reserves.
- Support of both Russia and China.
- No signs of lack of internal Unity.

Does Pakistan enjoy these advantages?

Do not agree. Pakistan has its own advantages. Such as a scientific base, developing economy, good defence, research and development, improving education and health services. Did it not?

After 9/11 event and US threats, did we had any choice to avoid confrontation with US (if we had not sided with US)? What does our dignity have to do with this when our leadership made a wise decision?

At many places in this forum I have said that Musharraf took a very wise decision at 9/11 time. Really wise. I appreciate it. But time has changed. So should MUSHARRAF change as well. Which He did not. Now his priority is not Pakistan any more, as was case at the time of 9/11. The priority has become to survive as long as possible as president of Pakistan. This is creating all the problems for him. I never vouch for his blood. But I always say now that what ever he is doing in follwing white house is going to harm Pakistan in the long run. He might be sincere in his heart for Pakistan which I belive he is, but it seems that he also have gone in the rut of a follower too well. It looks difficult for him to come out of this rutt. Let pray ALLAH that he does come out. Ameen.

We do not live in the state of inferiority complex sir! but understanding some ground realities does not hurts or does it?

The responses like yours do show that you suffer with infiriority complex. Sorry if it hurts you.

America can attack any nation if it wants to. You cannot dictate about Americans regarding what they can or cannot do!

Again wrong. Ground realities are different. They can not attack ANY NATION at they like.

So in otherwords, US actually played a very vital role in ensuring victory over Russians in Afghanistan regardless of who ever did the fighting on the ground.

It is actually Pakistan and Afghanistan that played the most crucial and vital role. Correct yourself. Saudis also financed Pakistan's nuke program. Did they any thing else to develop these nukes? Who is the real Hero then? Pakistani scientists or Saudis?

The Wars we fought:

Yeah! we fought 3 wars but we fought them against India (not USA!) and in one of these wars, we lost East Pakistan (now known as "Bangladesh").

No comments !

Thanks for your time and analysis.
Kashif

 

[Bull]

Same bullshit again .... Have I said any where that we should start war with anyone? My point again is that we can say NO to America and we dont have to compromise our intrest for sake of american wars.

Say "NO" only when the need is there.
If Pakistan had said "No" to US when they asked to side them in WoT,you wouldnt be here now spending time on the forum.

Which other occasion do you think Pakistan should have said "NO"?
Don't be obsessed with saying "NO" to America.

What have we gained from siding with USA?

Financial and Military aid.

What military strategy is this to allow opening of FBI offices and granting airbases to the enemy inside the country?

Enemy,America an enemy..you are obssesed with America.Why would you call them your enemy?
AQ and extremist muslims are threats to pakistan existance.

A.Q. Khan detained

Thats the least he could have got.If he was let gone he might have spilled the beans on alot more and pakistan would have been humilitaed even more.

Change in syllabus, promotion of cable culture, patronizing vulgarity and lewdness in the name of soft image are just a few important policies in this regard.

thats bullshit.

 

[waz]

About Iran:

Iran enjoys following advantages:

- OIL reserves.
- Support of both Russia and China.
- No signs of lack of internal Unity.

Does Pakistan enjoy these advantages?

The answer is "NO". And don't tell me that China will aid us if US attacks Pakistan.

They will never set foot on our fire!

Your post was great apart from the above which is a tad far fetched. Iran's "dear ally" Russia was launching military spy satellites for Israel just a few months back under "commercial obligations". Russia and China also "abstained" during the nuclear meeting and had they been such good friends they would have voted no to further action on Iran’s regime. Iran is also one of the most isolated governments in the world with a deeply hostile western and Arab world being its fiercest critics.

As for internal unity there is a constant battle between the moderates and hardliners and many now are becoming disillusioned with the promised economic miracle that the president said he would bring. Calling for Israel's annihilation will go only so far to satisfy people who also want jobs and prosperity. You also have the problem with the Kurds as well which is growing in momentum with every passing day especially since the hand of the Kurds in Iraq has been strengthened greatly by the USA.


Apart from Oil and gas that is the only leverage they more or less have and that too is on a tight tope and something Russia and China would be willing to let go of if the heat gets turned up on Iran.

Lastly this nation is under the cross hairs of the worlds most powerful nation and it's allies....

 

[Awesome]

For those feeling humliation for Pak fighting terrorists, where is your shame when the flip side is to fight for the Taliban and Al Qaeda?

US and Al Qaeda were going to goto war and there was no way around Pakistan. So either we could've fought for a civilized nation or denied them and ended up fighting for Al Qaeda who at the very least were responsible for hundreds of deaths of innocents to hurt their American enemy.

There is no way Pak would not have had to fight. If you'd recall, India had offered its bases to the US. For what? To attack Afghanistan? How'd they attack Afghanistan without Pakistan letting them? So guess what role India would've assumed with the US tech and firepower? To attack Pakistan.

The US was going to Afghanistan. With or without Pakistani help. And it's not like we didn't help avert a war till the last minute. We sent envoys, we sent clergies, we sent intelligence operatives to convince the Taliban to give up Bin Laden. We who have supplied them with food, refuge and the much needed fuel, were denied flat and our request was rejected. So the Taliban broke allegiance first too.

We did a proud thing by siding against terrorists. So don't tell me the country faces any humiliation. You're in that state of feeling alone.

Hum toh zinda qaum hain, hum toh painda qaum hain. Tum jo chahay banjao.

 

[zpak]

Sallahudin's posts can be basically summed up by his statement: "I'm ashamed to be Pakistani."

Sallahudin that is very unfortunate that you have this mentality. If you are so ashamed why dont you move to another country. I suggest Afghanistan, they seem to have a simiilar, blindly/emotional/extremist sentiment.

Pakistan made a great decision when it came to abandoning the stubborn diplomatically inept Taliban. If the Taliban were stupid enough to let their entire country fall apart for the sake of a few foreigners than let them burn. Dont get Pakistan involved with them.

And why the confrontationalist approach? Against America? You obviously have no clue about the strength of their military and the situation in ours. Alhumdullilah the current Pakistani government isn't suicidal.


I find it extremely funny when I hear these people calling America and the West morally corrupt. All I'm going to say is look at our current society in general and look at theirs. Is it a surprise that Pakistanis line up to immigrate to these countries.

THe Khilafah is not a magical solution. I've seen all the post on how utopian its is. Its easy when its all on paper. Establishing and continuing it will not happen. Especially in a society where the majority can not read. Why do you think it fell apart in the first place?

 

[waz]

Taking the attention away from brother Saladin who at least can argue his point and is respectable. I have to say the most annoying trolls are the die hard internet Jihadi’s who spend their time hurling abuse at Pakistan for it’s decision to back the US led war. They go on about how we are slaves to the US but can’t see their faces on the leashes of Arab extremists who were happy to abuse the privileges that the Afghans afforded to them and didn’t give a rat’s *** when the nation was bombed but still carried on their pathetic war through their videos etc. These Khwarij devils are quite happy to stir discord amongst the Muslims masses and bring down societies to their medieval ways. Sadly some people will give shelter to them through the concept of “brotherhood” without realising they have bought snakes into their homes who only seek benefit and nothing else. The Muslim world will move on and leave behind these pathetic savages and their murderous ways.

 

[LeGenD]

Very good post LeGenD!
Thanks, keep it up! :THUMBS UP:

Thanks brother!

Mind the language Please!

That comment was not pointed at you!

Very true. 100% right. Not only Pakistan but the entire OIC members suffer from these problems. Agreed. They ned to spend a lot more time and efforts to improve them to world standards. Particularly economy and education.

Thanks!

100% Wrong. Ground Realities are completely different from what you percieve.

Sir! Americans have faced problems in Iraq (due to lack of planning for POST-War Iraq scenario) but these problems are way too much hyped up by the media.

Americans have lost a few in this war but they have actually gained much more then we realize.

Lets analyze the situation a little bit!

First we take a look at American situation:

Q1- US has lost close to 3000 soldiers in 3 years of deadly combat. Does this puts any serious dent on them?

US Reaction: American Military has recruited 5000 more fresh and new soldiers. And losses are part of war.

Q2- US has lost some fame due to this unjust war.

US Reaction: We (Americans) are willing to make a few sacrifices for the sake of those strategies that can provide us long-term benefits.

Q3- What US has gained from this War?

Answer: Huge reserves of OIL. And OIL is being stolen by them (Americans) on daily basis and shipped back to undisclosed locations in US and its Allies.

Q4- Any signifcant US losses?

Answer: No! (reasons below)

A) US Navy losses is NIL (no Aircraft Carrier | Submarine | Destroyer | Frigate | Cruiser etc has been sunk.)

B) US Airforce losses is Minimum (no Aircraft downed after the 21 day conflict.)

C) US Army losses is few (3000 dead out of 140,000 total troops deployed. Close to 15000 wounded but more then 7000 have returned for active duty already)

D) Military Vehicles losses are in couple of hundreds but they can be rebuilt and are being rebuilt. And US have thousands of military vehicles so they don't have to worry about this.

E) US Commanders killed (none)

F) US brigadiers and Generals killed (none)

Q5- Did they failed to restore Law and Order?

Answer: No! because they are not serious?

Now we take a look at Iraqi Situation:

- They could not defeat American military in battle and have been occupied.
- They have lost their pride and dignity as well.
- Saddam has been captured and his sons killed.
- Chaos and anarchy is eating the nation slowly like a plague.
- Chances of divisions among ethnic rivals are high.
- Their OIL is being stolen.
- Iraqis are now openly killing each other for personal gains.
- 4000+ Al-Qaeda militants have been killed (including the feared Zarqawi)
- 100,000+ Iraqi have been killed.
- Many cities lie in ruins.
- Many Iraqi people have become refugees in their own land.

Q1- Did Iraqi Mujahideen achieved their objectives?

Answer: No! (they have caused more troubles than to secure freedom from invading forces)

So, what can we conclude from this?

But Did IRAQ invited USA to conquer it. To destroy it. To humiliate it. To divide it like Broasted Chicken. Then why Americans are there at the first place. All the reasons and Cases these Americans build against them was fabricated. It is a known FACT now. If America is strong then Does it mean that one should say ,'Sir tasleem-e-Kham hai, Jo Mizaag-e-Yaar main Aayey' !
Who will stand against these tyrants? Can you shed some light?

No one wants to be invaded but Iraq is a perfect example of what is the consequences for those nations who are led by corrupt and unwise leaders.

Thank God! Musharraf is not like Saddam.

And I agree that Americans had no right to invade a nation (be it Iraq) and destroy it on the pretext of lies but the entire world actually failed to stop them.

Do not agree. Pakistan has its own advantages. Such as a scientific base, developing economy, good defence, research and development, improving education and health services. Did it not?

And these advantages are?

Scientific base, development, good defence and improvements in sectors of education and health are things that are taking place in Iran and North Korea as well.

Do you think that both Iran and NK live in Stone age?

At many places in this forum I have said that Musharraf took a very wise decision at 9/11 time. Really wise. I appreciate it. But time has changed. So should MUSHARRAF change as well. Which He did not. Now his priority is not Pakistan any more, as was case at the time of 9/11. The priority has become to survive as long as possible as president of Pakistan. This is creating all the problems for him. I never vouch for his blood. But I always say now that what ever he is doing in follwing white house is going to harm Pakistan in the long run. He might be sincere in his heart for Pakistan which I belive he is, but it seems that he also have gone in the rut of a follower too well. It looks difficult for him to come out of this rutt. Let pray ALLAH that he does come out. Ameen.

Time has not changed but perceptions have changed a little.

Q1- You think that Americans still don't pressurize Pakistan on "War on Terror" related issues?

Q2- Recently a senior NATO official has arrived in Pakistan to talk with Musharraf for what purpose?

Even now Americans do monitor each and every move made by Musharraf and he has to comply or face problems and consequences.

Here is a simple logic:

Once you enter a deal with a party then you can't back out of it until the job is done or else your actions will be considered as an "Act of Treason" and you will have to pay the price.

The responses like yours do show that you suffer with infiriority complex. Sorry if it hurts you.

My responses do not indicate that I suffer from inferiority complex and my comments were not fully aimed at you.

Again wrong. Ground realities are different. They can not attack ANY NATION at they like.

There is a difference between what they "want to do" and "can do".

It is actually Pakistan and Afghanistan that played the most crucial and vital role. Correct yourself. Saudis also financed Pakistan's nuke program. Did they any thing else to develop these nukes? Who is the real Hero then? Pakistani scientists or Saudis?

American aid proved to be worthwhile and made things a lot easier for us and as well as for Afghan Mujahideen.

Let us take a look at few cases:

- Remember the role and importance of "Stinger Missiles" in Afghan war?

- And the role of "F-16's" in our defense of our airspace during the Afghan war against Afghan intruders?

No comments !

Thanks for your time and analysis.
Kashif

You're welcome!

 

[sigatoka]

Thanks brother!


1. US has lost close to 3000 soldiers in 3 years of deadly combat.

2. US Reaction: American Military has recruited 5000 more fresh and new soldiers.

3. - US has lost some fame due to this unjust war.

- What US has gained from this War?

4. Answer: Huge reserves of OIL. And OIL is being stolen by them on daily basis and shipped back to undisclosed locations in US and its Allies.

-

1. 3,000 dead and around 5,000 cripples is not insignificant.

2. These new soldiers arent free, its costing their economy.

3. It has lost lot of goodwill. Would Iran and NK be so bold if 140,000 u.s. troops werent tied down in Iraq?

4. Huge reserves lying in the ground. Iraq's Oil exports havent even reached pre-war levels.


p.s. The U.S. has directly spent over $200 billion on the war in addition the reduction in Iraq's Oil exports have increased world price which itself would represent another $100 bilion for the U.S. economy. Also the 200b figure doesnt include the cost wear and tear on equipment fully and the U.S. is reducing capital expenditure on acquisitions to pay for the war. All this happening against a backdrop of strong growth by China, Russia, Iran and so forth.

 

[LeGenD]

1. 3,000 dead and around 5,000 cripples is not insignificant.

2. These new soldiers arent free, its costing their economy.

3. It has lost lot of goodwill. Would Iran and NK be so bold if 140,000 u.s. troops werent tied down in Iraq?

4. Huge reserves lying in the ground. Iraq's Oil exports havent even reached pre-war levels.


p.s. The U.S. has directly spent over $200 billion on the war in addition the reduction in Iraq's Oil exports have increased world price which itself would represent another $100 bilion for the U.S. economy. Also the 200b figure doesnt include the cost wear and tear on equipment fully and the U.S. is reducing capital expenditure on acquisitions to pay for the war. All this happening against a backdrop of strong growth by China, Russia, Iran and so forth.

They can afford to take even more losses because they have a self-sustainable and strong economy and an abundance of man-power.

It does not matters that how many dollars are being spent in this war because they can afford it.

And most of the expenses are due to expensive equipment in use. And they are not going to stay in Iraq forever.

Things move on with passage of time!

 

[Salahuddin]

Thanks brother!


That comment was not pointed at you!

Thanks!


Sir! Americans have faced problems in Iraq (due to lack of planning for POST-War Iraq scenario) but these problems are way too much hyped up by the media.

Americans have lost a few in this war but they have actually gained much more then we realize.

Lets analyze the situation a little bit!

First we take a look at American situation:

Q1- US has lost close to 3000 soldiers in 3 years of deadly combat. Does this puts any serious dent on them?

US Reaction: American Military has recruited 5000 more fresh and new soldiers. And losses are part of war.

Q2- US has lost some fame due to this unjust war.

US Reaction: We (Americans) are willing to make a few sacrifices for the sake of those strategies that can provide us long-term benefits.

Q3- What US has gained from this War?

Answer: Huge reserves of OIL. And OIL is being stolen by them (Americans) on daily basis and shipped back to undisclosed locations in US and its Allies.

Q4- Any signifcant US losses?

Answer: No! (reasons below)

A) US Navy losses is NIL (no Aircraft Carrier | Submarine | Destroyer | Frigate | Cruiser etc has been sunk.)

B) US Airforce losses is Minimum (no Aircraft downed after the 21 day conflict.)

C) US Army losses is few (3000 dead out of 140,000 total troops deployed. Close to 15000 wounded but more then 7000 have returned for active duty already)

D) Military Vehicles losses are in couple of hundreds but they can be rebuilt and are being rebuilt. And US have thousands of military vehicles so they don't have to worry about this.

E) US Commanders killed (none)

F) US brigadiers and Generals killed (none)

Q5- Did they failed to restore Law and Order?

Answer: No! because they are not serious?

Now we take a look at Iraqi Situation:

- They could not defeat American military in battle and have been occupied.
- They have lost their pride and dignity as well.
- Saddam has been captured and his sons killed.
- Chaos and anarchy is eating the nation slowly like a plague.
- Chances of divisions among ethnic rivals are high.
- Their OIL is being stolen.
- Iraqis are now openly killing each other for personal gains.
- 4000+ Al-Qaeda militants have been killed (including the feared Zarqawi)
- 100,000+ Iraqi have been killed.
- Many cities lie in ruins.
- Many Iraqi people have become refugees in their own land.

Q1- Did Iraqi Mujahideen achieved their objectives?

Answer: No! (they have caused more troubles than to secure freedom from invading forces)

So, what can we conclude from this?


No one wants to be invaded but Iraq is a perfect example of what is the consequences for those nations who are led by corrupt and unwise leaders.

Thank God! Musharraf is not like Saddam.

And I agree that Americans had no right to invade a nation (be it Iraq) and destroy it on the pretext of lies but the entire world actually failed to stop them.


And these advantages are?

Scientific base, development, good defence and improvements in sectors of education and health are things that are taking place in Iran and North Korea as well.

Do you think that both Iran and NK live in Stone age?

Time has not changed but perceptions have changed a little.

Q1- You think that Americans still don't pressurize Pakistan on "War on Terror" related issues?

Q2- Recently a senior NATO official has arrived in Pakistan to talk with Musharraf for what purpose?

Even now Americans do monitor each and every move made by Musharraf and he has to comply or face problems and consequences.

Here is a simple logic:

Once you enter a deal with a party then you can't back out of it until the job is done or else your actions will be considered as an "Act of Treason" and you will have to pay the price.


My responses do not indicate that I suffer from inferiority complex and my comments were not fully aimed at you.


There is a difference between what they "want to do" and "can do".


American aid proved to be worthwhile and made things a lot easier for us and as well as for Afghan Mujahideen.

Let us take a look at few cases:

- Remember the role and importance of "Stinger Missiles" in Afghan war?

- And the role of "F-16's" in our defense of our airspace during the Afghan war against Afghan intruders?


You're welcome!

In Iraq/ Afganistan who is USA and there allies fighting with ? They are fighting with lightly armed civilians not fully equipped or trained army.

They use our air space, our lands , our seas to attack us. who allows them to use all our resources? Its these agent rulers who they have imposed upon us and are not chosen by the masses to govern our affairs ,with out these traiters Colabrating with the west the west can not even invade in inch of our land...

 

[Salahuddin]

By Allah I am not anti Pakistan I just hate what is being done with the land I love and what has been done with my living hero DR A Q KHAN by these enamies of Pakistan and islam and this has been made possible by these traiters you guys support.

 

[Awesome]

Thanks brother!


That comment was not pointed at you!

Regardless of that we'd prefer to remain topic centric than Salahuddin centric. He has a right to say whatever he wants to, no matter how outrageous it may seem to us if he wants to say it, he can do so without facing ridicule.

Oh and welcome to the Forum.

 

[zpak]

I apologize if my posts offend anyone. But the truth is all out their to see. I myself am a religious person, but the last thing I can stand is some self-righteous person judging others whether they are muslim or not. Its the same deal with these religious party folks in the current government.

You never see them, in organized not destructive political action. Whenever they come out, traffic has to stop, tyres and other property (KFC's) have to burn. I'm not saying the secular parties do that, but its become almost a trademark for the MMA. On top of that parties like the MMA are worried about small irrelevant issues like advertisements and uni gender races. And only address major issues by proposing unrealistic and utopian ideas like the Khilafah. Once these religious parties actually do something substantial, like start a massive countrywide literacy drive especially in the villages, is when I think they'll earn some credibility.

 

[LeGenD]

Regardless of that we'd prefer to remain topic centric than Salahuddin centric. He has a right to say whatever he wants to, no matter how outrageous it may seem to us if he wants to say it, he can do so without facing ridicule.

Oh and welcome to the Forum.

Thanks for welcoming me!

And I understand your point.

 

[Salahuddin]

I apologize if my posts offend anyone. But the truth is all out their to see. I myself am a religious person, but the last thing I can stand is some self-righteous person judging others whether they are muslim or not. Its the same deal with these religious party folks in the current government.

You never see them, in organized not destructive political action. Whenever they come out, traffic has to stop, tyres and other property (KFC's) have to burn. I'm not saying the secular parties do that, but its become almost a trademark for the MMA. On top of that parties like the MMA are worried about small irrelevant issues like advertisements and uni gender races. And only address major issues by proposing unrealistic and utopian ideas like the Khilafah. Once these religious parties actually do something substantial, like start a massive countrywide literacy drive especially in the villages, is when I think they'll earn some credibility.

Why is it that every time anyone calls for the creation of a Pan-Islamic state and the unification of Muslim lands, they are instead met with skepticism from even fellow Muslims? These critics say that it is altogether unrealistic to achieve such a lofty goal.

But I ask you, why is it unrealistic that one day the Muslim lands will be united? History is replete with examples of small nation-states that united. In the Nineteenth Century, Otto Von Bismark led the movement to unite the German and Prussian city-states. Prior to this unification, the Germanic people were inconsequential to the political environment in Europe; indeed, they were eclipsed by the French under the Napoleonic rule and the mighty British empire. But the unification of the Germanic lands transformed Germany into a mighty regional super-power just a few decades later. The once scoffed at German barbarian now laughed at the weak French who cowered before the German armies in both world wars.


Once enough of the people believe, then it impossible for any force to stop them from making it happen, no matter how strong a tyrant is or how cunning an enemy is. The Quran says "Allah will not change the condition of a people until they first change their inner selves." So once we change our inner-selves, then maybe Allah will change our condition as a people.

I do not need to elaborate on the need for a united Muslim empire. We see what the kufaar are doing to us in Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan. There are over fifty-five Muslim countries in the world. If we all unite under one rule, we can become one of the powers of the world. We will have more natural resources than any other country, including the USA and Russia. And probably the best natural resource that we will have which will aid us to ultimate victory is the Resource of Allah, and His blessings.