American Dare

[Spring Onion]

Why on earth we fight with US . And why shold we listen to some insane people who are bent upon creating problems for us.

If the wars are won by might US would have won in Iraq even they could not in Afghanistan with poor infrastri\ucture.

 

[Awesome]

Thinking American Army is filled with cowards is just wrong. They are smart. They aim to kill without getting killed themselves.

How can Pakistan defend itself if America begins air raids over Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad?

Defence is not just to prevent them from invading Pakistan. Defence is to preventing turning our cities into rubble. Where is the dignity in that?

 

[Salahuddin]

He is not advocating a war with USA. He is saying to live with diginity. Probably diginity is not a very valuable thing for you. But for majority of muslims it is. Living a state of inferiority complex is what the main aim, of WESTERN propaganda against ISLAM, all the time. You look in that trap. Get out of this complex soon. And remember charging the majority of muslims as living in a 'superiority complex or confusion' would not help you come out of this rut. And don't take this advice as an insult. I am sincere and honest with you.
Kashif

Alhumdolilah , At last someone understood my point.

 

[Salahuddin]

I feel ashamed to be Pakistani. Pakistan is more powerfull in terms of military then Iran North korea and many other nations still we dont have any guts to stand up to external threats. Our so called leaders start shivring with fear on mere phone call from there kibla (white house) .

Even countries like Venezuela without strong army are more independent then us.

I am also surprised at lot of people in this board have no shame or no problem with Pakistan bowing down in sajood towards west.

 

[Salahuddin]

Thinking American Army is filled with cowards is just wrong. They are smart. They aim to kill without getting killed themselves.

How can Pakistan defend itself if America begins air raids over Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad?

Defence is not just to prevent them from invading Pakistan. Defence is to preventing turning our cities into rubble. Where is the dignity in that?

America wouldnt dare attack Pakistan , they have agents like Busharraf doing very good job for them.

It is Pakistan fought with USSR and won. We have fought with enamy 3 times larger then us and we are still there. Its time we shaould start learning the word NO .....

 

[sigatoka]

I feel ashamed to be Pakistani. Pakistan is more powerfull in terms of military then Iran North korea and many other nations still we dont have any guts to stand up to external threats. Our so called leaders start shivring with fear on mere phone call from there kibla (white house) .

Even countries like Venezuela without strong army are more independent then us.

I am also surprised at lot of people in this board have no shame or no problem with Pakistan bowing down in sajood towards west.

Should judgement be on what one says or what one does? If it is on what one says then indeed Musharaf is a weak gutless leader, if it is on what one does, then Musharraf has pursued a robust independant foreign policy.

Pak. has not sent troops to Iraq or Afghanistan and has made peace with the Taliban, this is independant foreign policy.

The atmosphere just after 9/11 was extremely tense, even Saddam had sent money for the victims which is how scared he was. Even Iran kept its mouth shut, had Pak. not helped U.S. it would have been hammered in place of Iraq.

Now that danger has passed, Pak. is free to do as it likes.

 

[Salahuddin]

Should judgement be on what one says or what one does? If it is on what one says then indeed Musharaf is a weak gutless leader, if it is on what one does, then Musharraf has pursued a robust independant foreign policy.

Pak. has not sent troops to Iraq or Afghanistan and has made peace with the Taliban, this is independant foreign policy.

The atmosphere just after 9/11 was extremely tense, even Saddam had sent money for the victims which is how scared he was. Even Iran kept its mouth shut, had Pak. not helped U.S. it would have been hammered in place of Iraq.

Now that danger has passed, Pak. is free to do as it likes.

We are just going in circles. Most of you read only few lines and reply with your pathetic answers, may be the views I am trying to share with you guys are beyong your brains capacity..

 

[Awesome]

I feel ashamed to be Pakistani.

So that's where you are coming from...

Pakistan is more powerfull in terms of military then Iran North korea and many other nations still we dont have any guts to stand up to external threats.

You have to live together. We can live like Iran, constantly under the state of looming war or we can build businesses, and a life for Pakistanis. Economic progress is what is important for the third world Pakistani not how great we are at kicking American Butt.

We have ONE issue and ONE issue alone. For which we maintain our readied defences. To defend from the Indian threat.

Our so called leaders start shivring with fear on mere phone call from there kibla (white house) .

Sounds to me like you'd rather have them itching for a fight. There are issues between Pakistan and America but they can be settled through talks, negotiations, businesses, deals, etc.

Even countries like Venezuela without strong army are more independent then us.

Become Venezzuellan.

I am also surprised at lot of people in this board have no shame or no problem with Pakistan bowing down in sajood towards west.

Yeah like the time they asked to send forces into Pakistan and we said no?

 

[LeGenD]

I feel ashamed to be Pakistani. Pakistan is more powerfull in terms of military then Iran North korea and many other nations still we dont have any guts to stand up to external threats. Our so called leaders start shivring with fear on mere phone call from there kibla (white house) .

Even countries like Venezuela without strong army are more independent then us.

I am also surprised at lot of people in this board have no shame or no problem with Pakistan bowing down in sajood towards west.

Salahuddin!

You spout more BS then you actually know!

Pakistan is powerful in terms of military but you are forgetting one crucial thing and that is "Strong Economy", which we lack.

Always remember this statement "Pride leads to failure".

War demands very strong economy so that military operations can be funded in the time of a prolonged conflict.

What will happen when you will run out of ammunition at the time of conflict and then you don't have sufficient funds to order more?

Do you really think that our 12 Billion dollars are enough to fight a war with US???

Pakistan suffers from following things that make us weak:

- Pride.
- Corruption.
- Poor Economy. (And we still rely on Foreign Aid)
- Poor and mostly uneducated "Awaam" who can be easily exploited.
- Lack of internal Unity.

These are the 5 main reasons that make us weak and yet we choose to ignore them and go on talking about Khilafah and victories (that will be never possible unless we address the above issues).

Wake-up boy! this is 21st century!

Let us take the example of Iraq:

You say that US is facing troubles in Iraq but let me remind you that this is just a media hog-wosh and nothing else.

But on the otherhand, Iraq has lost almost everything in this war. They have been conquered and humiliated and they are still not united and killing each other.

Now there are reports that Iraq might even dis-integrate in to 3 smaller nations. What good will this do to Iraqi people, if this really happens?

Kurdish leadership has already started to show signs of break-up.

Sir! you need to see the bigger picture of events that openly show how miserable we muslims really are!

Pakistan - being more powerful then Iran and NK:

About Iran:

Iran enjoys following advantages:

- OIL reserves.
- Support of both Russia and China.
- No signs of lack of internal Unity.

Does Pakistan enjoy these advantages?

The answer is "NO". And don't tell me that China will aid us if US attacks Pakistan.

They will never set foot on our fire!

About DPRK:

Underestimating DPRK is stupid. It is a very strong nation and its geographical location is what actually saves it from attack.

DPRK shares borders with both China and Russia and both these nations are strongly against any conflict in Korean region. I mean! this is surely more then enough to keep any nation from attacking DPRK.

Another thing is that Korean people are also internally united and this is where the actual strength of Korean leadership comes from.

Venezuela:

Last time I paid attention to this and I noticed that Venezuela has nothing to fear about due to two reasons:

1) This nation does not seems to have any relations with Al-Qaeda or Saddam or Taliban.
2) And this nation was never threatened by US "to be bombed back to stone-age" after 9/11 event.

He is not advocating a war with USA. He is saying to live with diginity. Probably diginity is not a very valuable thing for you. But for majority of muslims it is. Living a state of inferiority complex is what the main aim, of WESTERN propaganda against ISLAM, all the time. You look in that trap. Get out of this complex soon. And remember charging the majority of muslims as living in a 'superiority complex or confusion' would not help you come out of this rut. And don't take this advice as an insult. I am sincere and honest with you.

Who says that we don't want to live with dignity?

And tell me one thing!!!

After 9/11 event and US threats, did we had any choice to avoid confrontation with US (if we had not sided with US)? What does our dignity have to do with this when our leadership made a wise decision?

We do not live in the state of inferiority complex sir! but understanding some ground realities does not hurts or does it?

America wouldnt dare attack Pakistan , they have agents like Busharraf doing very good job for them.

It is Pakistan fought with USSR and won. We have fought with enamy 3 times larger then us and we are still there. Its time we shaould start learning the word NO .....

America can attack any nation if it wants to. You cannot dictate about Americans regarding what they can or cannot do!

And stop calling Musharraf a Busharraf! (he knows much more then you about ground realities and geo-polictical situation of Pakistan)

Pakistan vs USSR:

Pakistan never directly engaged USSR in any battles and most of the fighting was done by Afghan mujahids when USSR invaded Aghanistan.

What we did is that we trained the Afghan mujahideen forces and provided logistical support to our Afghan brothers along with the help from CIA who actually funded the training programs and gave sophisticated weapons to both mujahideen and our armed forces to boost our fighting potential and as well as that of Afghan Mujahideen.

So in otherwords, US actually played a very vital role in ensuring victory over Russians in Afghanistan regardless of who ever did the fighting on the ground.

The Wars we fought:

Yeah! we fought 3 wars but we fought them against India (not USA!) and in one of these wars, we lost East Pakistan (now known as "Bangladesh").

Also, Indian military has almost similar fighting potential and experience as our military (because both these militaries were once part of British military forces in Sub-continent).

But now even Indians have the edge over us in two things:

- Strong Economy.
- Better Airforce and Navy.

And my advice to you salahuddin brother is that "you better open your eyes now".

 

[Neo]

Very good post LeGenD!
Thanks, keep it up! :thumbsup:

 

[Salahuddin]

Salahuddin!

You spout more BS then you actually know!

Pakistan is powerful in terms of military but you are forgetting one crucial thing and that is "Strong Economy", which we lack.

Always remember this statement "Pride leads to failure".

War demands very strong economy so that military operations can be funded in the time of a prolonged conflict.

What will happen when you will run out of ammunition at the time of conflict and then you don't have sufficient funds to order more?

Do you really think that our 12 Billion dollars are enough to fight a war with US???

Pakistan suffers from following things that make us weak:

- Pride.
- Corruption.
- Poor Economy. (And we still rely on Foreign Aid)
- Poor and mostly uneducated "Awaam" who can be easily exploited.
- Lack of internal Unity.

These are the 5 main reasons that make us weak and yet we choose to ignore them and go on talking about Khilafah and victories (that will be never possible unless we address the above issues).

Wake-up boy! this is 21st century!

Let us take the example of Iraq:

You say that US is facing troubles in Iraq but let me remind you that this is just a media hog-wosh and nothing else.

But on the otherhand, Iraq has lost almost everything in this war. They have been conquered and humiliated and they are still not united and killing each other.

Now there are reports that Iraq might even dis-integrate in to 3 smaller nations. What good will this do to Iraqi people, if this really happens?

Kurdish leadership has already started to show signs of break-up.

Sir! you need to see the bigger picture of events that openly show how miserable we muslims really are!

Pakistan - being more powerful then Iran and NK:

About Iran:

Iran enjoys following advantages:

- OIL reserves.
- Support of both Russia and China.
- No signs of lack of internal Unity.

Does Pakistan enjoy these advantages?

The answer is "NO". And don't tell me that China will aid us if US attacks Pakistan.

They will never set foot on our fire!

About DPRK:

Underestimating DPRK is stupid. It is a very strong nation and its geographical location is what actually saves it from attack.

DPRK shares borders with both China and Russia and both these nations are strongly against any conflict in Korean region. I mean! this is surely more then enough to keep any nation from attacking DPRK.

Another thing is that Korean people are also internally united and this is where the actual strength of Korean leadership comes from.

Venezuela:

Last time I paid attention to this and I noticed that Venezuela has nothing to fear about due to two reasons:

1) This nation does not seems to have any relations with Al-Qaeda or Saddam or Taliban.
2) And this nation was never threatened by US "to be bombed back to stone-age" after 9/11 event.


Who says that we don't want to live with dignity?

And tell me one thing!!!

After 9/11 event and US threats, did we had any choice to avoid confrontation with US (if we had not sided with US)? What does our dignity have to do with this when our leadership made a wise decision?

We do not live in the state of inferiority complex sir! but understanding some ground realities does not hurts or does it?


America can attack any nation if it wants to. You cannot dictate about Americans regarding what they can or cannot do!

And stop calling Musharraf a Busharraf! (he knows much more then you about ground realities and geo-polictical situation of Pakistan)

Pakistan vs USSR:

Pakistan never directly engaged USSR in any battles and most of the fighting was done by Afghan mujahids when USSR invaded Aghanistan.

What we did is that we trained the Afghan mujahideen forces and provided logistical support to our Afghan brothers along with the help from CIA who actually funded the training programs and gave sophisticated weapons to both mujahideen and our armed forces to boost our fighting potential and as well as that of Afghan Mujahideen.

So in otherwords, US actually played a very vital role in ensuring victory over Russians in Afghanistan regardless of who ever did the fighting on the ground.

The Wars we fought:

Yeah! we fought 3 wars but we fought them against India (not USA!) and in one of these wars, we lost East Pakistan (now known as "Bangladesh").

Also, Indian military has almost similar fighting potential and experience as our military (because both these militaries were once part of British military forces in Sub-continent).

But now even Indians have the edge over us in two things:

- Strong Economy.
- Better Airforce and Navy.

And my advice to you salahuddin brother is that "you better open your eyes now".

Same bullshit again .... Have I said any where that we should start war with anyone? My point again is that we can say NO to America and we dont have to compromise our intrest for sake of american wars.

What have we gained from siding with USA?

What military strategy is this to allow opening of FBI offices and granting airbases to the enemy inside the country?

A.Q. Khan detained

Senior scientist of KRL are forced into retirement.

Not just this, upon American instruction a campaign is undergoing to change the Islamic identity of Muslims completely. Change in syllabus, promotion of cable culture, patronizing vulgarity and lewdness in the name of soft image are just a few important policies in this regard.

What further proof is required to the Musharraf treachery that people were continuously being told that Pakistani land will not be used for bombarding Afghanistan? But later it was disclosed that American planes made 50000+ sorties from Airbases of the Pakistan Air Force to bomb the Muslims of Afghanistan.


What has Musharraf achieved for Pakistan?

Musharraf's regime has been found to be the most corrupt government the country has ever had. In a survey conducted in all four provinces of Pakistan, as many as 67 per cent of people said Musharraf's regime was more corrupt compared to those of former premiers— Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.

These TRAITERS have sold Pakistan , even our cities budget is decided by the IMF and WORLD BANK.

WHAT HAVE ACHIEVED IN 50 YEARS ? ONE AFTER ANOTHER CORRUPT BAS**** LOOTS THE COUNTRY AND SETTLE DOWNS IN ANOTHER.

WE WILL BE IN SAME SITUATION UNTILL WE TURN TO ALLAHS GIDANCE ONLY HE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE LAWS FOR MANKIND JUST LOOK AT OUR PAST HISTOTRY...

We need to get rid of these ****** rulers by establishing Khilafah, only then we will be victorious...Inshallah

 

[Salahuddin]

PLEASE BROTHERS GET OUT OF BUSHARRAFS SLAVERY AND UNDERSTAND THE ARTICEL WITH OPEN MIND.

America could neither dare to wage an open war against Pakistan five years ago nor has the courage to do so today

As usual on reaching the United States Musharraf’s eagerness to support his master increases manifold. Musharraf’s statement that America threatened to bomb Pakistan is in fact a failed attempt to conceal his treachery under the cover of so-called coercion. In fact, America does not need to pressurize or threaten traitors like Musharraf; rather a simple phone-call or an instruction is enough to get the job done. This fake threat was for the public consumption and to help Musharraf with an excuse to give to the Ummah for supporting the US. The reason for repeating the same old fake threat now, after five years, is that Musharraf wants to show the Ummah that even today he is compelled to follow American diktat. The reason being that if we didn’t kill our own Muslim brothers in the tribal belt and refused to support the American crusade in Afghanistan, America has the capability to send us back to the stone age. Hence it’s better for Pakistan to continue to serve and ‘bootlick’ America. (Astagfirullah-il-Azeem)

The fact is that America was neither in a position to impose a war on Pakistan five years ago nor she has the courage to do so today. Regarding the issue of “hot pursuit,” a coward army like the American’s, which dare not to go outside the green zone; how come they could conduct an operation inside Pakistan’s territory bypassing one hundred thousand strong fully equipped Pakistan combat troops guarding the Pakistani frontiers. This is only possible when traitors like Musharraf himself guarantee their safety. America would never like to conduct military operations inside Pakistan’s territory when he has Pakistani troops available to be sacrificed, (thanks to Musharraf!). America’s strength could be easily gauged from their failure in weaker countries like Afghanistan and Iraq that were already too fragile because of continued fighting and sanctions. Pakistan is the strongest Muslim country and the only Muslim nuclear power. American bases in the Persian Gulf and Central Asia were an easy target for Pakistani missiles and fighter war planes five years ago. Moreover, had there been a sincere leadership, an attack on Pakistan was impossible for America. Furthermore, a power that is highly equipped but their soldiers are not ready to sacrifice their lives is already destroyed along with their arsenal. We had already witnessed that with Israel in the recent war aggression on Lebanon and in the shape of the death of American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is true that America possess much more cavalry and military arsenals than what Pakistan possess but since Pakistan has the capability to cause more damage to America than what America could bear that is why America would never have committed the mistake of attacking Pakistan. As for the hoax of the Indians siding with America, we ask why would India involve itself in a foreign war that could maximum benefit her with destruction of Pakistan but at the cost of himself reaching the Stone Age because of a nuclear war? What about making herself as an easy vulnerable prey to its Eastern enemy ‘People Republic of China’. And after this war the division of this weak Indian state into many stateless would not have taken much time. This is the “balance of power” because of which India and America could not impose an open war on Pakistan. And even if they conducted this mistake, even then it was impossible to subjugate Pakistan through military means the same way as they failed in Afghanistan and Iraq. But agent rulers like Musharraf scared the people and not only committed genocide of the innocent Muslim of Afghanistan but made it possible for America to control the Pakistani land and Air space without firing even a single bullet. Whilst on other side, despite bombing with thousands of tons of ammunition America could not subjugate Iraq and Afghanistan!!!

As for the threat of “sending Pakistan back to the Stone Age” is concerned; the threat is there now. If America and India had the capability to completely control Pakistan they would not wait a moment in imposing a war over Pakistan. The question is what wisdom did we show by granting our neighbourhood to our enemy? What military strategy is this to allow opening of FBI offices and granting airbases to the enemy inside the country? The answer is simple. An agent ruler does not care about the interest of their people; they care for the interest of the master. Because of Musharraf America was not only able to crush Afghanistan but further enslaved Pakistan by placing their troops and secret agencies inside the country. Moreover, it is obvious to the people the situation of the strategic assets in the name of whose “protection” the Afghani Muslims were sold. Kashmir policy is U-turned and Jihad is declared as terrorism. Atomic scientist A.Q. Khan detained and senior scientist of KRL are forced into retirement. Not just this, upon American instruction a campaign is undergoing to change the Islamic identity of Muslims completely. Change in syllabus, promotion of cable culture, patronizing vulgarity and lewdness in the name of soft image are just a few important policies in this regard. What further proof is required to the Musharraf treachery that people were continuously being told that Pakistani land will not be used for bombarding Afghanistan? But later it was disclosed that American planes made 50000+ sorties from Airbases of the Pakistan Air Force to bomb the Muslims of Afghanistan.

A Muslim prefers the death of honour to the life of humiliation and slavery. But what these Islamic trait have to do with coward and traitor rulers like Musharraf? They just want to save their seat and make millions by writing a bunch of lies and selling his Iman. The days of these traitor rulers are numbered. Insha Allah soon the Ummah will get rid of these rulers by establishing Khilafah. And that will be the day of rejoicing for the

Admin Note: Where is the link?

 

[sigatoka]

Pakistan vs USSR:

1. Pakistan never directly engaged USSR in any battles and most of the fighting was done by Afghan mujahids when USSR invaded Aghanistan.


2. So in otherwords, US actually played a very vital role in ensuring victory over Russians in Afghanistan regardless of who ever did the fighting on the ground.

1. Many Pak. from the border tribal regions did go and fight in Afghanistan.

2. I am not so sure anymore. The U.S. in Afghanistan is fighting against the same opponent that the Soviets fought against and they are still struggling even after so many years in which they have improved technology. It seems the role of the U.S. in playing a vital part against the Soviets was overblown.

 

[Thunder]

Sallaidiun.

I know what you are taking about. But there are many problams we have today. Agreed musharraf is not the best president. But like i said before, be it a dictator or a klifia, it is the person leading us that matters. We can have all the shria law in place we want, we can have all the democeritaic laws in place we want. But in the end it is going to be a person that will lead. Every thing depends on that person. He can either make us the next super power, or the next failed state.

As for the fight with the americans, well let's see, our balistaic missiles could probabley hit US bases in Middle east delying their invansion. But in the end, their B-2s will be destorying our air bases and stuff. Then they are going to send thousands of troops in. Our army will fight them, yes, but in a guriella warfare. Our people will also fight them, it is a fact, that your average pakistani is armed with either a 9mm or a ak-47. But they too, will fight in a guriella warfare style.

In the end, we might be able to kill their troops like happened in vietnam, but thier bombing will send karachi, lahore, islambad but to the stone ages. We might win a hezbuallah style vctory like said before, but our country would littelry lay in ruins. Those fancy nukes you keep taking about would be of no use, since we don't have ICBM's or any other way of delievering nukes to the american soil.

Also, why are you so filled with pride, do you know that your not suppose to be filled with pride. What do we have to be proud of anyway. Our people go hungary everyday, half of us can't read or write. We say that "oh look pakistan is making this building, pakistan is building that building". What we are proud because we have a few buildings in pakistan. Newyork alone has about 5,000 buildings, a tiny state alone, we probable don't have that many buildings in all of pakistan.

This is a difference between them and us. When the americans say that they are the best in the world, we belivie them because they have proved it through advancements in science, econamy, and other areas. But when we as pakistanis say that we are the best in the world, they laugh at us, because we have nothingto show them, except those nukes.:wall:

 

[Thunder]

Khilafah system or whatever you support is an old system, outdated system. It has some laws which cannot be exist in todays world such as the system of cutting hands of the people when they steel something, or stoning to death to some girl who was caught to have an affair with some guy.

In todays world only democracy will work, there can be divisions in that two like Republicans and Democrats.

One can be Liberal or Conservative.

Nah, my friend you are wrong. If you are saying that the klifa system is wrong because it's outdated, then you should know that democercy is much older then the klifia law. So should'nt it be outdated more. As for those laws such as cutting hands and stuff. Well my friend, it has been proven that the harsher the puinsment, the more people are afriad to do it. So if you steal and i cut your hands, people would think twice about stealing. And also, isreal also uses it's old ways, i don't see any one calling them backwards. Looks like you've been brainwashed by the western media.

PS: I will talk more about why those punishments are as they are later, right now i have to go.