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American attack aftermath: Pakistan declares attack a 'plot'

@Bilalhaider and @President Camacho

ceasefire please
I understand both of you and thanked for different reasons :)


yes PA's image is on the line here but the PPP leadership has other worries , they cant wait and see, far from it they are the ones that cant wait to apologise to the Americans for the fuss PA is making after these deaths. these are the same political leadership who broke the banks in Sindh to save their wealth and let the helpless peasants and their property drown, what does the life of 2 dozen soldiers mean to them? most of their wealth is in the West and they will dread the day when Americans might freeze it if Pakistan crosses its line.

indeed there is a lot of foreplay for public consumption and sentiments and there is also an element of looking after the morale of its own forces that have been yet again attacked by the ally.
dont know if you read a story of one of the soldiers who was so proud to have been fighting the taliban and be part of this WoT as the fate has it, he was slain by the very ally he was supposed to be helping. (go to Dawn website).

its too natural that for some incidents the reaction is many fold than others and we are not an exception. just think what story will make headlines in America? a white man killing another white man or an Asian or African Muslim killing a white man in teh street who turns out to be a tea party activist and a priest too?
 
Quick Answer
So I understand your point you are trying to make, don’t fire back at Americans when they don’t understand and cant decide if you are friend, Ally or enemy because the fate is going to be the same regardless. So Pakistanis should have accepted their fate after communicating the attack to the Americans.

I don’t know if someone who is being pounded has the luxury like you to ponder over the optimism of surviving if the culprit is not heeding the ceasefire calls.

As far as 23 December surprise is concerned, it wont be any different from their last investigation farces so we are not banking on anything we don’t already know.

Thanks but no thanks

All I am saying is that a lot of Pakistani members are making a point about why didnt the Americans didnt stop attacking despite being told by Pak command that its a blue on blue engagement. However, once Pakistanis started attacking back (not saying they didnt have a right to) that communication from Pak command lost its significance. any and every ROE allows to fire back in self defence, and once American chopper saw tracers coming back at him, the shouts of blue on blue pretty much went out of the proverbial window..Am sure something of this effect will come out in the report on 23rd

Another quick question.. A lot of Pakistani members here have a broken heart of being hit by an ally.. But truly, is America considered an ally.. To help you answer that, tell me if the attack was from a PAF plane that accidently starfed the post (though a low probability of doing that) or a plane with Chinese markings, would the Pakistani soldiers have fired back.. ??
 
Other side of Salala


The process of annihilating the ‘Volcano’ and the ‘Boulder’ posts at Salala by Nato/US troops began on November 25. Just before the midnight hour, a formation of aircrafts — four high speed (fighters), three to four medium-level, slow-speed drones and three helicopters — appeared on Pakistani radars. They drifted slowly towards the east. Aircraft fly routinely on the Pakistan-Afghan border, some as close as only a kilometre away only from the border; almost always, the mission is to support anti-Taliban operations. Such a composition of an aerial force, however, is unusual and is categorised as ‘intense activity’. Intense activity gets reported right up the chain, as it was in this case. In parallel, the information, both in video link, as indeed in telephonic coordination, is shared with the Pakistan Army’s Air Defence Command Post. Both sides, the air force and the army, observed closely as this package drifted ever closer to the border.

It is usual, again, for Nato/US and Pakistan, to share information around a robust and well-tried- mechanism on all missions that take place in the vicinity of the border. This information invariably gets transmitted a day in advance and always before an operation gets underway. Aerial activity, at a distance less than three kilometres from the border, is always cleared with the other side. The border’s sanctity, in all such cases, is invariably respected. That night though, as the aircraft package drifted closer, both for its constitution and for its likely intent to cross the three kilometres threshold, the local US-Pakistan Tactical Monitoring Cell (TMC) was approached through the usual channels and an explanation sought on the developing aerial picture. The TMC confirmed an anti-Taliban ground operation in progress for which the air support was intended.

Two caveats are important: while US and Pakistan have such a manned coordination of information mechanism at the tactical level, there isn’t one between the air force and the army where information sharing and threat assessment are instituted concurrently as the situation evolves — the existing contacts remain at the leadership level and are activated mostly when a headquarters and, therefore, a commander, has reasonably assured information himself. It may be a sad reflection, but true, that most coordination for a tactical situation of the kind that Pakistan experiences today in its war against terror is kicked in as a consequence of television reports which are usually more pervasive and efficient. And two, no prior information had been shared with either the army or the air force about this night’s mission by Nato/US; unknown to either that both were in the dark and without notification.

Coordination between Nato/US and Pakistani forces also exists in the shape of Regional Command Tactical Centres created on the Afghan side, adjacent to, and along the border. That night, as reported in various versions of US media reports, a ground operation was indeed underway by the Nato/ANA forces against the Taliban, in the vicinity of the two Pakistani posts on the border; Pakistan was neither aware, nor informed of such an operation. Why, remains a hanging and a loaded question. As has been stated, this was an ANA led operation where Nato/US was in assistance. Was the ANA not bound by the coordination mechanisms in place? Or was ANA leadership in the operation used as a convenient subterfuge to avoid intimation as per agreements? Both issues will need to be answered at some stage.

Both posts were more mere encampments and had come into place, after September 2011, after the successful completion of anti-militant operations in Mohmand. These were intended to augment monitoring and control against increasing incidence of cross-border raids by factions of Taliban from the Afghan territories. These were posited on a ridge between the more regular ones in the north and the south; it was generally understood that in the course of many briefings that both sides mutually shared, the information and institution of these new posts was known to Nato/US. Was this a costly assumption? Or, did a more heinous intent override any rationality, including possessed information? The Nato/US tactical centre in Afghanistan across these posts also has a Pakistani presence. The Pakistani major was woken by the American duty official and was informed of two things: one, that the Nato/ANA patrol had met fire and were under attack; and two, he sought from the major, information on any additional Pakistani posts in the area. Unsure of the intent, the major dithered from sharing information unless exact coordinates of the area in question were provided to him. Seven minutes later, the same official returned to inform the major that post ‘Volcano’ had been hit.

Two issues emerge: who fired on the Nato/ANA ground patrol and how were they aware of ‘Volcano’? Reportedly, this entire area on either sides of the border is infested with Taliban. So, what is likely is that, indeed, there was an operation in the area unknown to the Pakistanis and that this patrol did come under some fire and was engaged, which pushed them to seek air support. The Pakistani posts are only 200-300 metres from the border, which makes it easily possible for the post to be engaged from within Afghanistan, especially, from the air and for someone on the other side to assume that a fire could have emanated from these posts. Possibilities such as these clouded perceptions and entangled the two sides into a deadly engagement? Or, was it really so, given that no prior intimation was made to the Pakistanis about this operation. On the radars where the aerial activity was being monitored, the Nato/US air package never closed in less than one kilometre from the border. It still gave them comfortable range to engage these posts. There will be questions asked, though, if the helicopters may have slipped below the radar horizon and closed onto the posts for a more venomous attack. Loss of communications on both posts meant a delay in building a tactical picture at all levels of command. As a consequence, other than a rag-tag resistance at the post, no other defensive support could be provided to those under attack.

Why remains the bigger question. Will the fog of war subsume all else that appears as an element of deadly omission and commission that men make when they are in active combat? Emotion makes man what he is, as indeed, the beast that he sometime becomes. Salala was a beastly act and a deadly consequence.

Other side of Salala – The Express Tribune
 
I have already mentioned that it is Kayani that is under the threat of a coup from his fellow Army men, not really the Army. Yes, the Army is expected to 'hit back hard', & that is exactly what it is doing. Both for public consumption & the national interests of Pakistan. Both are important, & the Army has realized that the NATO Forces cannot be treated as a reliable partner on the military co-operation front. So both factors are involved, but it is futile talk to overplay one over the other.
 
However, once Pakistanis started attacking back (not saying they didnt have a right to) that communication from Pak command lost its significance. any and every ROE allows to fire back in self defence, and once American chopper saw tracers coming back at him, the shouts of blue on blue pretty much went out of the proverbial window..Am sure something of this effect will come out in the report on 23rd

Another quick question.. A lot of Pakistani members here have a broken heart of being hit by an ally.. But truly, is America considered an ally.. To help you answer that, tell me if the attack was from a PAF plane that accidently starfed the post (though a low probability of doing that) or a plane with Chinese markings, would the Pakistani soldiers have fired back.. ??

haha you are unbelievable, I think Americans should USE your line in the 23rd Dec report. We came back to finsh them off because they made the fatal mistake of firing back at us.

You pretty much killed the discussion

As far as the broken heart is concerned it’s a disappointment really. If it was you guys we would have understood because we are not allies , if it was the Taliban we would have understood because we are at war with them.

As far as your hypothetical question is concerned, all I can say is that there is next to no chance of that happening because no one can match the American record in this matter.
But for argument sake if the attacker doesn’t heed your calls just like someone cant identify himself to a sentry at a high security installation he is clear to fire no matter who the intruder is. So to ease you my man, doesn’t matter if the attacker was Chinese, Saudi, Burmese, Ugandan, Indian or even Pakistani.. If the communication is made to halt the attack and the attacker doesn’t there are 2 possibilities

1. He is hostile enemy
2. He is a retard like these attackers on 26th

So fight back with whatever you got, you are going down anyway so why not give yourself a chance to go down fighting?



You must forward your lines to CENTCOM man , they will love it.
 
All I am saying is that a lot of Pakistani members are making a point about why didnt the Americans didnt stop attacking despite being told by Pak command that its a blue on blue engagement. However, once Pakistanis started attacking back (not saying they didnt have a right to) that communication from Pak command lost its significance. any and every ROE allows to fire back in self defence, and once American chopper saw tracers coming back at him, the shouts of blue on blue pretty much went out of the proverbial window..Am sure something of this effect will come out in the report on 23rd

Another quick question.. A lot of Pakistani members here have a broken heart of being hit by an ally.. But truly, is America considered an ally.. To help you answer that, tell me if the attack was from a PAF plane that accidently starfed the post (though a low probability of doing that) or a plane with Chinese markings, would the Pakistani soldiers have fired back.. ??

Goodness gracious me, that was ridiculous... I can't believe a person can be that silly while arguing.. On one hand you say lets wait for the report and on other hand you illustrate and assume things yourself. I must say you are too good at investigations why don't you join CENTCOM's initiative for prob into the incident?
 
The Taliban regime was not brought down by drones, or incessant bombings. The Taliban regime fell flat right after the fuel supply to Afghanistan was blocked from Pakistani side.

Pakistan is making exactly the same move against NATO forces. It has not only blocked the NATO supplies, but has also blocked the commercial fuel supply to Afghanistan, lest the NATO shall buy any fuel from within Afghanistan.

Such ingenious, and courageous actions on part of the Army were not to be seen throughout the years of WoT.


I am just making a comparison here ya know, between the actions of the Army against enemies of Pakistan in the past, and actions of the Army against the enemies of Pakistan at present.

The seriousness shown by the Army at this hour, was nowhere to be seen in the past when the toll was much, much higher.


I dont know what you're talking about but Pakistan army has been fighting the taliban aggressively for years and uped the ante 2 1/2 years ago with the malakand operation. From that point ttp taliban have on the back foot.

That op, followed by the one in S.WA, then orakzai, Dir, Mohmand etc. Mohmand and Dir have been going on even before the Malakand op. The seriousness of Pak army displayed against tacking the taliban can be seen by the huge amount of casualties on Pak's side...

edit: ...and a huge reduction in terror strikes in the country. I mean we literally went from 1 to 2 suicide bombings aday to....... let's leave it at that. It didn't happen over night or by stopping of oil supply for a day. Dont be naive to think that.

All props to Pak army, the ISI and police and it's special branches for years of their their efforts against terrorists.
 
Bonn conference useless without Pakistan: Afghan MP
ISLAMABAD: Afghan Parliamentarian Huma Sultani has said that Bonn Conference on Afghanistan’s future has lost its usefulness without Pakistan’s participation.

In an exclusive interview with Online on phone from Kabul, the member of Wolesi Jirga, or Lower House of the parliament from Ghazni province, said that the Bonn Conference will fail to produce any result for peace and stability in Afghanistan as the parties to the conflict including Taliban and Hizb-e-Islami have rejected it.

“Now when Pakistan, an important stakeholder of peace in the region, is also boycotting the US-backed conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, its failure is inevitable,” she added.

She said that in fact the international community is not serious in peace in Afghanistan and the conference was only called in to forward agenda of US in the region. “Europe is passing through economic recession what they can donate for future in Afghanistan, they can hardly bear expenses of their own soldiers,” she further said while commenting on post 2014 support by EU to Afghanistan.

The parliamentarian claimed that only she has been in contact with Taliban Supreme Commander Mullah Omer, who is ready for peace talks. But the Karzai’s administration and his foreigner supporters are not serious in holding peace talks.

“They some time urges Pakistan to help in peace talks. None of the Pkistani official including the prime minister and the military leader ship has access to Omer for the last one year and I again say that only I have contact with him. Even top leader of Haqqani network cannot meet him, though they may have some telephonic contacts,” she claimed.

Sultani said that solution to Afghanistan is simple and that is a point where all stakeholders within Afghanistan could agree. She suggested a government of the neutral, sincere and Afghan patriot government. “This suggestion is even acceptable to Mullah Omer. The current government is not sincere; it is corrupt and stool of foreigners. Leaders of Northern Alliance, personalities of former Mujahideen, Taliban and the present officials are not acceptable. There should be entire new people who can go for peace,” the parliamentarian said.

The member of Wolesi jirga said that she was making efforts for peace by bargaining peace between President Karzai and Mullah Omer but useless as Karzai was not serious for peace talks.

She blamed that the government in Afghanistan has banned free media in the country and her voice is not given coverage now.

“Now I want to visit Pakistan, Iran, Russia, China and other regional countries to interact with media for hearing my urges for peace. And I already submitted my passport to Pakistani embassy in Kabul for visiting Peshawar and Islamabad. But, so far I was not given permission,” she said.

Pakistan has boycotted the Bonn conference as a protest against NATO raids against two Pakistan posts in Mohmand Agency along Afghan border killing 24 Pakistani soldiers and wounding 16 others. After the attack Pakistan blocked supply route to NATO in Afghanistan via Pakistan and ordered US to vacate Shamsi airbase in Pakistan’s Balochistan.

ONLINE - International News Network
 
I prefer we install some Missiles so such "MISTAKES" don't happen or they happen in Canadian cities not in Pakistan
 
So fight back with whatever you got, you are going down anyway so why not give yourself a chance to go down fighting?

I think that line came after the breaking of the CoC. Prior to that, whenever under fire from the ally forces, the post had to seek orders from above whether to fire back at the ally forces, because if the case were same as you state, then chances are it would have already blown to a full scale war with the US long time ago.

But the Pakistani Generals knew better than to engage in full scale war with the US/NATO.

Even now, when the CoC has been canceled, Pakistan Army will never allow amassing of troops (Esp the F-16s) to back the posts at borders because, howsoever arrogant the US may appear, they (PA) respect the fact that it is still the formidable force in the area.

Engagement of one/two posts resulting in two digit casualties will, under no circumstances, be allowed to stretch it into an engagement of an entire battalion/brigade.

So when they say "fight back with whatever you got", there is a hidden message that says "fight back if you want, just don't bring it further inside". - That is bound to happen if F-16s are sent as reinforcements.

This is my point - a casualty of 25 dying in a friendly fire and giving Pakistan the image of a victim, is any time better than a casualty of 250 dying in an all out offensive, at the same time portraying the PA as the villain.

I am not taking it for granted that the Pakistani Army is so weak it will perish at the mere sight of the American forces, rather, I am basing my judgement on historical accounts of tens of thousands getting ruthlessly killed in matter of hours - as it happened on 26-27 Feb 1991 (Highway of Death).

Will the US care about popular perception? History tells us no.

Is the US capable of creating another Highway of Death? Facts tell us yes.

Will the Americans take their tolls just sitting down? We all know they won't.

It looks more like a Catch-22 situation to me. The only two choices are - either let the posts fire at will (and at their own risks) and let them perish in the process, or send in reinforcements and bring the war back home.

It is purely my view - that if the PA were not to play in the hands of prevailing anti-US sentiments, it would have very easily found numerous other choices that would be many times more profitable, and avoid this Catch-22 situation in its entirety.
 
Pakistan does not need to have an open confrontation with the US/NATO Forces, especially when they hold all the important cards of the fate of the WOT in Afghanistan. The US came back on their knees apologizing to Pakistan when the supply lines were closed for 11 days, all this tough posturing on their end is meaningless, because without Pakistan, there is no WOT in Afghanistan. The US & NATO Forces will be sitting ducks in Afghanistan if they don't manage to get Pakistan's co-operation.
 

Obama calling today shows they're depserate to get Pakistan to attend this meeting. And if I ddint' know any better I'd say it's to corner Pak at the conference. Once you're sitting there, among all the world's leader, you tell em we've were wronged and the entire room will empathsize with you. Thenthey'll tell you alright, let it go, look at the bigger picture and butter you up with verbal judo.

I think that is what Pak is trying to avoid. Being put in that awkward position where they have to say no to so many world leaders. Diplomatically it's not right.
 
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