America : Ally or Enemy ?

[Meengla]

[This is going to be off-topic. But I will post it here anyway. So what does Robert Gates means when he says 'contrary' here? Will it not burst the bubble of hatred against Pakistan which the American-led media has built-in since the OBL raid? Well, logically it should but then we are talking about people who have been in overt or covert wars more than any other nation on Earth within last century and who have always claimed innocence! Make Orwell proud: War is Peace]
[BTW, I did not vote here. My choice would have been neither friend nor foe]


US should continue Pakistan aid, says defense chief | World | DAWN.COM

As to whether Pakistani authorities knew the hiding place of bin Laden before the US raid in which he was killed this month, Gates said, “I’ve seen no evidence at all” to support that notion and that “I’ve seen some evidence on the contrary.”

 

[unicorn]

Being an ally does not means that we get dictations on what to do how to do when to do.The US senator today even critsizes the visit of PM to China.Now that is f@cking dictation that normal Pakistanis don't like to hear. America should take care of its arrogance or else we will to come up with a solution as we have come up in the past against the Soviets

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

we can also agree on something else...

America and Americans suffered enormously on 9/11/2001. Many many many precious, innocent civilian lives were lost.


the same way, scores and scores of Pakistanis have been killed in a campaign of bomb attacks in their own country....the bombs never discriminated against their victims ---some who were so young before they knew even that they were Pakistani.


we all need to start putting more value on life....and investing in these lives. That aid money? It aint doing jack shyte. It's making the wrong people richer. It's counter-productive.



I fundamentally disagree that USA is Pakistan's enemy. But as i said in my previous post, we havent seen eye-to-eye on certain issues and have in fact done some harm to eachother. That needs to end very soon. On the ''street'' --- popular perception of Pakistan is not good nowdays in USA; popular perception of USA is not good in Pakistan either


hopefully things will change. This shouldnt a personal or emotional type of thing.

 

[TaimiKhan]

15 votes for US as a "ally"?? and these were 15 Pakistani guys or girls?

out of the 16 for ally, 4 are Americans, 6 are Indians and the rest 6 are Pakistanis.

That tells a lot.

And in the 47 Enemy votes, 1 is a full time American, a few Indians and the majority of Pakistanis, including me

So, the overall result may be inferred as the Paks think US as an enemy and not as an ally.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

enemy with American people, enemy with America as a nation (i.e. what it stands for), or enemy with the policy makers in America


these are important questions to ponder

 

[unicorn]

the American relationship with Pakistan and Pakistan's relationship with America is not black or white. sometimes there are shades of gray, and some unknowns because neither side is clear about their intentions. You never know what you get.

so therefore, this question cannot be answered by just ''ally'' or ''enemy''


at times we've been allies...and at times we've been enemies to eachother. From a rational perspective, we need to build a consensus on issues like Afghanistan and come up with a way that we can both gain from the outcome i.e. eradication of terrorism, lawlessness, drugs, corruption, etc. --some of which we need to do in our own country as well

Actually they support all these in Afghanistan.How can they come up with solution when they are at forefront in supporting drugs,corruption etc.

Back in 2001, the opium production --from which heroin is derived --was at an all time low, but following the US invasion of the country, the poppy fields returned and production outstripped previous levels.

The CIA have been involved in several drug trafficking operations. The CIA worked with groups which it knew were involved in drug trafficking, so that these groups would provide them with useful intelligence and material support, in exchange for allowing their activities to continue and impeding or preventing their arrest, indictment, and imprisonment by U.S. law enforcement agencies. The CIA and US forces in Afghanistan facilitated the drug trade of various Afghan drug lords including Gulbuddin Hekmatyar providing them with transport, logistics, and political and security protection.

Partnership and trust are a 2-way thing. Neither country had done a good job to promote these things.

I do not agree sir Pakistan has done every thing on their behalf to stop this so called WOT.No one in the world asked them back then why they retreat their soldiers in the mountains of Tora Bora when OBL was walking distance away from them.This time they directly pointed their fingers on our national institution ISI we cannot buy this any longer and we will certainly not buy the propaganda that american media propagates.

 

[AAtish]

enemy with American people, enemy with America as a nation (i.e. what it stands for), or enemy with the policy makers in America


these are important questions to ponder

To clarify matters, its against double standards of American Policy and Policy makers.. Pakistanis never had any problem with normal civilians.. let it be Americans or Indians.. We are aware of the fact that innocent civilians are being played in both countries, same as it is the case in Pakistan.

 

[A1Kaid]

Many if not most Americans think Pakistan is in the Middle East and Pakistanis are a bunch of push over Arabs...They have little understanding.


Now of course the University educated many of them know better, at least I hope.

 

[muse]

I fundamentally disagree that USA is Pakistan's enemy. But as i said in my previous post, we havent seen eye-to-eye on certain issues and have in fact done some harm to eachother. That needs to end very soon. On the ''street'' --- popular perception of Pakistan is not good nowdays in USA; popular perception of USA is not good in Pakistan either
hopefully things will change.

AbuZolfiqar


I think I can understand the anguish -- allow me say that the US is no longer the US of certainly my youth - it is a US which seems to have lost it's way, while it's "way of life" is tied to having the best of relations with Muslim majority countries, the US has worked hard at ensuring the exact opposite - yes, there is a irrational element to the US now -- even now when you read what supposedly unites the US and Pakistan, you will read what is a caricature, US and Israel against the Sino-Islamic alliance -- it's just incredible that cartoons are the substance of the understanding of the world that animates Americans.

AZ -- the external is a reflection of the internal -- It's not a coincidence that the US has not meaningful relations with even a single, as in, one (1) Muslim majority country

Yes, it's unfortunate, but as long as the idea prevails amongst US policy makers that they get to throw aid our way and expect that we will simply accept "orders" -well, you know, it's not going happen, they will lose their money and feel ripped off - and they would deserve it for imagining that such is the way to proceed -- we don't want any freaking AID, we want normal trade, access to US markets.

You have asked whether it's enemy of US policy or US people and this is a question that should have been in the poll --- I think 100% of the voters will agree that we are not and we are not interested in being enemy of the people, heck we don't want ot be enemy of the Indian people -- but in the US , the idea that you can oppose US policy and not oppose the people, is not one that has wide acceptance, so if you oppose US policy, to the US people it seems it is the same as opposing them -- a testament to the incredible media message management capability.

 

[Porus]

It is said that nations don't have friends, they have interests which is quite true and this is the reason why these kind of polls don't make any sense to me. It is not America's problem if Pakistanis don't know how to run their foreign policy, if we have any to begin with.

 

[53fd]

enemy with American people, enemy with America as a nation (i.e. what it stands for), or enemy with the policy makers in America
these are important questions to ponder

The American people (& their soldiers in Afghanistan) are not the enemy of Pakistan. They are the victims of their Establishment, just like Pakistanis are the victims of the inept Pakistani Establishment.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The American people (& their soldiers in Afghanistan) are not the enemy of Pakistan. They are the victims of their Establishment, just like Pakistanis are the victims of the inept Pakistani Establishment.

Yeah that's true. And regarding foreign policy of Pakistan --- we don't really have one. Our civilian leaders bumble through life thinking day to day....no long term vision. No solutions. Rudderless ship! But there are people who can. Patriotic God fearing and genuine people.

 

[Meengla]

Yeah that's true. And regarding foreign policy of Pakistan --- we don't really have one. Our civilian leaders bumble through life thinking day to day....no long term vision. No solutions. Rudderless ship! But there are people who can. Patriotic God fearing and genuine people.

There IS a large segment of Americans who, thanks to the internet, have begun to see the gravy-trains for the military industrial complex. Some of the largest demonstration against the Iraq war were in American cities, despite a flood of planted stories in the corporate media.
So, yes, millions of Americans know that there is a cabal of some thousand policy makers who benefit from these continual wars across the globe. And they do it at the expense of Americans themselves. They build their 6000 sq ft. houses, travel first class, have yachts, and generally live like Arab Sheiks at the expense of other ordinary Americans. Otherwise imagine America: Blessed with its natural resources, essentially an island nation with two land connected neighbors, surrounded by thousands of miles of water, hard working, largely law-abiding AND generous population. Why is there the need for these wars? Why is American military budget bigger than the combined budget of so many immediate powers? Why is America involved in so many overt and covert wars in the 20th century alone? Always, the 'others' were the bad guys.
And they talk about Pakistanis in 'denial'!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

we can also agree on something else...

America and Americans suffered enormously on 9/11/2001. Many many many precious, innocent civilian lives were lost.


the same way, scores and scores of Pakistanis have been killed in a campaign of bomb attacks in their own country....the bombs never discriminated against their victims ---some who were so young before they knew even that they were Pakistani.


we all need to start putting more value on life....and investing in these lives. That aid money? It aint doing jack shyte. It's making the wrong people richer. It's counter-productive.



I fundamentally disagree that USA is Pakistan's enemy. But as i said in my previous post, we havent seen eye-to-eye on certain issues and have in fact done some harm to eachother. That needs to end very soon. On the ''street'' --- popular perception of Pakistan is not good nowdays in USA; popular perception of USA is not good in Pakistan either


hopefully things will change. This shouldnt a personal or emotional type of thing.

Such is the good heartedness of our people... Dont be surprised when you read what i m writing here... America is a great nation... an Empire unlike other Empires before... but whatever was great about America almost looks like wayyy back in the past... It is due to their own arrogance that people have begun to dislike them... There is a term that is used for this regarding empires... Its called Imperial Hubris...

Let me say this much yeah... as the official islamist of this forum... that we want the best for the world and for America to play its potential role in the affairs... but the problem is America is now increasingly been guided by evil rather than common sense good judgement... they are destroying their own principles that made America a great nation in the first place... and people will always hate that which they see as unjust... To all the red neck and blind patriots of America here... Months ago on this very forum I mentioned the case of Dilawar the Taxi Driver in Afghanistan... why is it that I never got a response about him from any of you?? Centcom Cmdr Speaks, Uncle Chogy etc... why? Dont you think every human life is sacred and unjust killing due to torture is not even done by Animals against other Animals??

Bu Zolfiqar... you are not naive... but lets agree on something here.. there has to be a limit for good will for others... You cannot maintain a good will against those who are raping you in public and in the open... it would be taken as submission and cowardice...

 

[1 ummah]

Such is the good heartedness of our people... Dont be surprised when you read what i m writing here... America is a great nation... an Empire unlike other Empires before... but whatever was great about America almost looks like wayyy back in the past... It is due to their own arrogance that people have begun to dislike them... There is a term that is used for this regarding empires... Its called Imperial Hubris...

Let me say this much yeah... as the official islamist of this forum... that we want the best for the world and for America to play its potential role in the affairs... but the problem is America is now increasingly been guided by evil rather than common sense good judgement... they are destroying their own principles that made America a great nation in the first place... and people will always hate that which they see as unjust... To all the red neck and blind patriots of America here... Months ago on this very forum I mentioned the case of Dilawar the Taxi Driver in Afghanistan... why is it that I never got a response about him from any of you?? Centcom Cmdr Speaks, Uncle Chogy etc... why? Dont you think every human life is sacred and unjust killing due to torture is not even done by Animals against other Animals??

Bu Zolfiqar... you are not naive... but lets agree on something here.. there has to be a limit for good will for others... You cannot maintain a good will against those who are raping you in public and in the open... it would be taken as submission and cowardice...

salam bro was worried abt u ..cant P.M PLEASE E-MAIL ME...MY signature id