AMCA: Stalled

[SQ8]

The Basis itself is 200% Wrong.

LCA is NOT to Replace Mig 27s but Mig 21s. And Build the Numbers.

Mig 27 is a Ground Attack Fighter. Mig 21 is an Interceptor.

I think.. you said something like.. Apples and Oranges... ? Fits very Nicely here...

I would admit, that Yes The Aircraft is Late, But since we still need to replace our Mig 21s This Aircraft with capabilities Comparable to Mirages is the best. Contender.



Are You aware what are Fifth generation Technologies and the Efforts needed to devlop the same ? Are You Aware that a similar Aircraft F 35 is Struggling.... and may even get Cancelled ?

Add to it..

Even if things go smoothly, India wont get AMCA b4 2025.... and we need Mig 21 Replacements NOW !



How can we De-establish the Role of an Interceptor.. ?

Can You Exchange/Replace the Roles of JF17s ( Light Weight Aircraft , primarily for Interception, Defensive Role ) and F16s or J10 ( Medium Weight Aircraft for Multi-Role Missions , Primarily for Offensive Role ) ?

To Conclude...Once gain.. You are Comparing Apples with Oranges....



Its Not "Obsession" rather Necessity.
LCA has more to do with Technology Capability and Self Reliance than Core Number Building.



Firstly, If it was "Roles" than Once Gain You are Flawed as I have Explained Above. Role of Rafale and LCA are Different.

Secondly, You are Again Flawed... ( As you mentioned above.. ) If we can Afford Rafales where is the Question of FUNDS ?

With $50 Billion Budget. Funds is NOT and ISSUE for India. We Are NOT getting LCA coz we CANT Afford Expensive Aircraft.

You are reading wrong again, if building up the numbers and funds are not the issue.. why go for the LCA.. please decide on what you want to say... please figure out your apples and oranges.

Yes, there are a lot of struggles with 5th gen.. but it is also a lead ahead. The F-35 is struggling but a lot of it has to do with meeting the requirement of 3 different services than the basic A model itself.. Will the AMCA have that issue?

No one talks about de-establishing the role of an interceptor, please do not indulge in hyper hyperbole' on arguments and instead look into how the Rafale can assume that role as well. Please understand the roles of the JF-17 as well, your idea are based on flawed assumptions. Those roles are no longer its sole or even primary functions.


The LCA HAS already established a good basis for the aerospace industry.. the journey has been rewarding but the destination should be changed.

Take a deep breath and stop trying to post tangents to the argument which is on meeting a role that may not be needed when looked in light of the changing developments in the region.

 

[navtrek]

Thank you for the news.

the reason why its on hold is we dont have to waste resources on two fifth generation fighters.

 

[Chanakyaa]

You are reading wrong again, if building up the numbers and funds are not the issue.. why go for the LCA

I do not understand why people deviate from their own Points while still telling that the person explain them is wrong.

With Due Respect :

#1. You Mentioned ( Post #28 : Link )

That LCA may be Stopped and AMCA Might be better Option. WRONG.

Reason : LCA is a Light Weight Aircraft. Its Developed to Replace Mig 21s. AMCA is VLO ( Fifth Gen ) Fighter, for Air Superority. Roles Cant be Exchanged.

#2. You Mentioned ( Post #28 : Link )

That LCA is Replacement for Mig 27 . WRONG AGAIN.

Reason : LCA is Developed to Replace Mig 21s and Not Mig 27s. The Mig 27 Roles will be fulfilled by Rafales/MKIs.


#3. You Mentioned ( Post # : Link )

That LCA is Developed and being Introduced for its a Cheap Aircraft ( Funds Deficit ) and is being built for Numbers. WRONG ONCE AGAIN.

Reason : India Could have Bought Any Comparable Aircraft Off-The-Shelf and it would have been Much Much Cheaper.

LCA had 2 Main Objectives :

A. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India's ageing MiG-21 fighters. The MiG-21 had been the mainstay of the Indian Air Force since the 1970s.

B. The other main objective was to give an impetus for an across-the-board advancement of India's domestic aviation capability.

Source : LCA Tejas - History

So, Funds were NEVER an ISSUE. We have spent a lot on LCA. and This Money was NOT ONLY for Aircraft Procurement but the Development of technologies. This has resulted in getting us several key Technologies Made-In-India .. like...

Airframe
Flight controls
Propulsion
Avionics
Radar
Self-protection
Escape systems

 

[DeathInvader]

India needs stealthcrafts asap!! With the world in the age of stealth technologies its not good to have low-tech aircrafts! India need to replace mig-21 true... but one time investments in the 5th gen tech and production would pay off more then LCA! India wont have to look into new tech for at least 2 decades.... In a few years we might see USA developing 6 gen aircraft and every1 will follow....Aint it better to have 5th gen airplanes?? We have potential in building good tech... Why dont we privatize this sector!!

 

[SR-91]

Great news!!
IAF has too many projects going on..
LCA mk1
LCA mk2
Rafale
Stealthier Rafael 2020+
FGFA
Without wasting tax payers money,they should cancel AMCA altogether......Instead join hands with Japan in their ADX program....Japanese are looking for closer relationship with India.India can learn a lot from Japanese folks..Japanese people are by far the most organized/talented people in the world.
This way India can save money and time and build a long relationship with Japan.

 

[Gessler]

I don't know what the holy CRAP is wrong with members here!

AMCA was never asked for by the IAF.

It is only HAL/ADA that have proposed to pursue development
of technology related to 5th generation aircraft. That development will continue. But what is changed is that money will not be spent to develop the AMCA as a plane in it's own right
now that it has been put on hold to allow HAL to concentrate on Mk-1/2 of LCA first.

@Oscar

What you are suggesting (scrap LCA and develop AMCA) does not have a basis in reality. Because: -

1) Has IAF ever expressed a requirement for any fifth-gen aircraft except FGFA? No. They don't want any 5th gen plane other than FGFA for any role. So where is the point in developing AMCA?

2) At the other hand IAF has expressed a requirement for both Mk-1 and Mk-2 of LCA. So this is the project that needs to be worked upon right now, not AMCA.

3) Is there anything that AMCA offers that PAK-FA/FGFA doesn't? No. So where is the point in pursuing AMCA when it's clear it cannot do anything that FGFA doesn't already?

4) HAL does not know ratsh!t about fifth-gen planes, but has been working with 4th gen tech for quite some while now. So is it not a good plan to keep AMCA on hold until HAL gains some actual know-how regarding fifth-gen technologies in their JV with Sukhoi?

5) IAF knows best what it wants and what it wants HAL/ADA to develop for it. Not you or me.

Great news!!
IAF has too many projects going on..
LCA mk1
LCA mk2
Rafale
Stealthier Rafael 2020+
FGFA
Without wasting tax payers money,they should cancel AMCA altogether......Instead join hands with Japan in their ADX program....Japanese are looking for closer relationship with India.India can learn a lot from Japanese folks..Japanese people are by far the most organized/talented people in the world.
This way India can save money and time and build a long relationship with Japan.

Please people, keep your rhetoric down.

IAF does not need or want any 5th gen plane other than FGFA.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Hold On. We are Talking about FGFA and NOT PAKFA !! Both are Different and India Will Buy PAKFA as well.

IMHO, That will be Close to 2018-2020.

@XiNiX there is no use in talking to deaf person using mouth.... Your wasting time.. People who have got the information have understood and are silent( I am talking about lot of users across border only) .. People who dont want to listen will not be convinced when you bring a real diamond to them and tell them this is diamond. They will simply reject and say it is a cyrstal

 

[MilSpec]

I keep saying it, forget the LCA because its now becoming a mill around the neck of the IAF.. the AMCA is the program to go for. The LCA production can be limited to 50 or so jets as that is all that should be needed.

AMCA hold!! It's a good thing. For following reasons,

1> The importance of LCA mk2 is not stressed enough. It is the single most important aircraft for India which will free it's offensive assets like MKI, M29UPG rafale etc.

2> LCA mk1/mk2 will be the drop in replacement for mig21 series and interim replacement for aging platforms, even if it officially doesn't completely replaces Mig27M it will take over the bulk of responsibilities of ground attack from the non-DARE3 Mig27M's. It will also complement Jaguar duties as their sorties are limited by it's vintage in last few years atleast until it is re-engined.

3> FGFA, the 5th gen project that is on track will provide and cover all the additional strengths that AMCA is envisaged to bring to the table.

4> FGFA is a joint project which atleast for two seat version- the PMF-FGFA will help India learn newer technologies, facilitating the engineers to transition into the AMCA project.

5> Strategically in long term, yes AMCA is an important project, but right now, lack of sqdn strength is hurting India big time. If LCA mk2 with the FG414 engine and the MMR radar turns out to be what we are hoping it to be, LCA mk2 numbers will go up, significantly up.

6> Hypothetically Imagine there is a huge flare up in indo-pak border, IAF doesn't have the capacity to seal the eastern airspace with it's current sqdn strength , neither does it have the strength to take a full measure on the western border apart from going on the defensive due to - low numbers of functional Mig27M, depleted Mig 21 sqdn strength, half of the MKI fleet will be entangled in CAP missions, that leaves 120 odd m2k's and Mig 29's to the main offensive, 3/4th of mig29's are not upgraded, so that is another bummer. LCA mk2 will be literally the biggest boost for IAF, and it will cost 1/4th of the the rafale.

AMCA in the immediate threat perception is not as important as LCA mk2 is, and FGFA can theoretically replace AMCA completely. Hence putting a hold on AMCA is a good thing, If we can bring in the LCA mk2 by 2014 and go full production mark by 2016, IAF will be a huge force to reckon with in 2018-20. If that doesn't happen then we will be in the same state as today in 2020, struggling with the sqdn strength.

 

[SQ8]

I don't know what the holy CRAP is wrong with members here!

AMCA was never asked for by the IAF.

It is only HAL/ADA that have proposed to pursue development
of technology related to 5th generation aircraft. That development will continue. But what is changed is that money will not be spent to develop the AMCA as a plane in it's own right
now that it has been put on hold to allow HAL to concentrate on Mk-1/2 of LCA first.

@Oscar

What you are suggesting (scrap LCA and develop AMCA) does not have a basis in reality. Because: -

1) Has IAF ever expressed a requirement for any fifth-gen aircraft except FGFA? No. They don't want any 5th gen plane other than FGFA for any role. So where is the point in developing AMCA?

What I am suggesting is not pursuing the LCA project with such fervor. The IAF has its ASR for a mig-21 replacement on a weight/role basis... What I am suggesting is that the role is already fulfilled and with available funds the numbers can be made up from the Rafale. The LCA project looks to require much more input which is pushing it back month by month and year by year.. perhaps due to HAL's own mismanagement. However, there may be other technical reasons for the delays.. if it is being delayed to the point where its effectiveness in the IAFs force might be undermined then it should not be given priority and only token aircraft produced to handle operations in the east where it can easily overcome any threats.
A good solid AMCA program with lessons from the LCA program and involvement of PV would have a much more synergistic effect on India's aircraft industry and may prove to be a much more successful program that would allow India to leap ahead in the early 2020s. Right now, there is no threat that India has which it is not capable of handling.. hence why try to push a program that should have been operational in numbers by the next to years to a program that now needs further R&D ON ITS BASIC DESIGN to be acceptable to the IAF?
Better to push those funds for more Rafales and allocate further funds for the AMCA. It does not mean that the AMCA will replace the Rafale but it will provide the second 5th gen tier for the IAF sooner than it expects.

 

[SQ8]

If we can bring in the LCA mk2 by 2014 and go full production mark by 2016, IAF will be a huge force to reckon with in 2018-20. If that doesn't happen then we will be in the same state as today in 2020, struggling with the sqdn strength.

And that right there is the core basis for what I am stating.. what guarantee is that the LCA Mk2 will come by 2014 when the Mk1 has taken on serious delays...can the IAF afford waiting and waiting for HAL's optimistic statements day after day? One other option would be to really go for a total restructuring of the program and those that head it to see where the heck the problem lies in falling behind schedules on deliverable... but until then.. the IAF is the customer that is frustrated.

 

[MilSpec]

Yes, there are a lot of struggles with 5th gen.. but it is also a lead ahead. The F-35 is struggling but a lot of it has to do with meeting the requirement of 3 different services than the basic A model itself.. Will the AMCA have that issue?

No one talks about de-establishing the role of an interceptor, please do not indulge in hyper hyperbole' on arguments and instead look into how the Rafale can assume that role as well. Please understand the roles of the JF-17 as well, your idea are based on flawed assumptions. Those roles are no longer its sole or even primary functions.


The LCA HAS already established a good basis for the aerospace industry.. the journey has been rewarding but the destination should be changed.

Compared to F35 AMCA will have even bigger problems, the challenge is testing stealth, the test setup, optimization, analysis will pose huge problems to ADA. just testing radar reflection from CRFP, and optimizing the model to get right fit for sheilding reflective components especially with the modern radar frequencies will be a huge problem unless russian help is brought on. Moulding and fabrication of air frame components is something ADA will benefit from LCA, but the avionics and sensor fusion is an completely different game. We haven't seen good fortunes yet, and the local industry and the human skill set is still not in place. Unless that happens, we can have a shell of 5th gen aircraft running on 4th gen avionics, which will be outrightly rejected by IAF, leading to the same LCA mk1 all over again!!!

LCA has actually done little to what it should have done to the aerospace industry, because ADA and HAL have been at loggerheads with each other. LCA mk2 is moving leaps and bounds since HAL has got involved. AMCA sounds like ideal project only when IAF is in good shape. and your take would be 100% right if IAF decided to replace all it's Mig21 and mig27M with Rafales, (250) of them, then there will be no need for LCA mk2, but then it would cost 4 times what LCA option does.

 

[gslv mk3]

Decade or 2 still a good good news...

I dont get it,How can news of an indigenous stealth fighter on hold,be good news for you we are getting PAKFA/FGFA anyway.

 

[MilSpec]

And that right there is the core basis for what I am stating.. what guarantee is that the LCA Mk2 will come by 2014 when the Mk1 has taken on serious delays...can the IAF afford waiting and waiting for HAL's optimistic statements day after day? One other option would be to really go for a total restructuring of the program and those that head it to see where the heck the problem lies in falling behind schedules on deliverable... but until then.. the IAF is the customer that is frustrated.

Personally I have very high hopes from HAL, ADA is the agency that has single-handedly ruined the LCA project. With HAL coming into the picture there is good chance of delivering a production ready a/c by 2014, give or take a year, but if huge incentive comes with that is the HAL's ability to manufacture a significantly higher number of LCA mk2's than ADA's design could have.

 

[Gessler]

What I am suggesting is not pursuing the LCA project with such fervor. The IAF has its ASR for a mig-21 replacement on a weight/role basis... What I am suggesting is that the role is already fulfilled and with available funds the numbers can be made up from the Rafale. The LCA project looks to require much more input which is pushing it back month by month and year by year.. perhaps due to HAL's own mismanagement. However, there may be other technical reasons for the delays.. if it is being delayed to the point where its effectiveness in the IAFs force might be undermined then it should not be given priority and only token aircraft produced to handle operations in the east where it can easily overcome any threats.
A good solid AMCA program with lessons from the LCA program and involvement of PV would have a much more synergistic effect on India's aircraft industry and may prove to be a much more successful program that would allow India to leap ahead in the early 2020s. Right now, there is no threat that India has which it is not capable of handling.. hence why try to push a program that should have been operational in numbers by the next to years to a program that now needs further R&D ON ITS BASIC DESIGN to be acceptable to the IAF?
Better to push those funds for more Rafales and allocate further funds for the AMCA. It does not mean that the AMCA will replace the Rafale but it will provide the second 5th gen tier for the IAF sooner than it expects.

HAL has a problem when it comes to prioritizing things. Even if you tell them to stop LCA and concentrate all their resources on AMCA, they'll find out soon enough that there is nothing to develop. They don't really know anything about 5th gen aircraft.

What they have hands-on experience in developing so far is the LCA which is 4th generation, 4.5 gen at most, if you include Mk-2. If they start building AMCA now, what they will implement in AMCA is tech from Tejas. So when AMCA is completed, it will be a 4th generation aircraft in a stealthy airframe. That's not being a 5th generation fighter.

If HAL is to gain any knowledge regarding the way 5th generation fighters are made, worked & developed, they will have to work through the joint development and production of Sukhoi/HAL FGFA, so it will only be after 2020 that HAL can think of using the experience they have gained by working alongside the Russians, to build a 5th generation plane indigenously, keeping in mind IAF requirements of post-2020 period.

So now it's evident that developing AMCA before 2020 will be a futile waste of time, money & resources, is it advisable to sit tight and eat your own fingernails? OR, concentrate your efforts on something IAF currently wants??

Obviously, the latter is the best option to choose. IAF will need a mix of Tejas Mk-2, Rafale, Super-MKI and FGFA for post-2020 period. And AMCA should begin development at that time, after absorbing everything there is to learn from PAK-FA & Rafale, and then improving upon these aspects, adding some of your own, and making a true 5th generation (or rather a 5.5 generation plane, if all important tech of PAK-FA is absorbed) fighter that can replace Tejas Mk-2 or Rafale when these two 4.5 gen planes run out of their service life.

Secondly, just because some 5th generation planes are in the works doesn't mean development of 4th/4.5 gen tech needs to be stopped. Look at China, there are 2 Chinese "fifth-generation" planes
currently in the sky but still development of advanced versions of 4th gen tech is continuing, such as J-10B, J-11B etc.

 

[gslv mk3]

indian start work on tejas almost in 1980

Wrong!!

The LCA design was finalised in 1990,Phase 1 (design, development and testing of TDs ) started in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991 and full scale funding was authorised only in 1993