AMCA :: Fifth Generation Fighter Under Development in India

[shaktiman2010]

Read slowly and stop bull..ing! I never said LCA is a failure, but Kaveri engine and MMR/AESA are!

What's the use of the flight testing in an IL 76, when the engine don't offer enough thrust to be useful for our fighter development, not even in a decade? I am very happy about LCA getting IOC, but am realistic enough to see how. Foreign engine, most likely foreign radar, foreign consultancy for several issues!

Do you think LCA is Indian project?

 

[Whiplash]

^^I thanked your post by mistake. Kaveri was built for one purpose. Powering the Tejas. It didn't manage to do that. It didn't even manage to power to tejas mk2. So stop saying it is not a failure just coz it passed flight trials. It failed its purpose. It's a failure.

 

[prototype]

Do you think LCA is Indian project?

i actually dont get u,but high amount of foreign collaboration can devalue one's ingeniousness announcements,anyway it is required for a nation which had no prior experience.

 

[blackops]

Thrust is a criteria set by IAF for engine they want in LCA. Its not a criteria for engine's flight-performance or its design's robustness.

Kaveri's design has been proven in flight test. That's what counts. So, its stupid to claim that Kaveri is failure.

tell me one thing if a engine is not able to provide you with the required thrust what will you do with am not saying its a complete failure but it is also not a full sucess

 

[shaktiman2010]

If we had build LCA around an of the shelf foreign engine and radar from the begining, we would have MK1 squads for years and could develop MK2 with our indigenous engines and radars. But we tried it exactly the other way around and that's the problem!

You are smoking again. Which foreign engine maker was offering engine R&D assistance during 1980's?

Snecma agreed to form JV with GTRE only after Kaveri passed high altitude tests in Russia.

 

[prototype]

You are smoking again. Which foreign engine maker was offering engine R&D assistance during 1980's?

Snecma agreed to form JV with GTRE only after Kaveri passed high altitude tests in Russia.

The reality is that from the start itself we were not interested in foreign collaboration.

 

[sancho]

Thrust is a criteria set by IAF for engine they want in LCA. Its not a criteria for engine's flight-performance or its design's robustness.

Kaveri's design has been proven in flight test. That's what counts. So, its stupid to claim that Kaveri is failure.

That's not logical at all, because it was developed with a specific thrust as a design goal, which it failed to achieve, that's why the development is a failure. The fact that it flys with 3 other engines aside is just a step forward, but far away from beeing a success!

Do you think LCA is Indian project?

Of course, just like I think Dhruv, or Arjun are, but in all these developments, foreign input (be it consultancy, JV, co-develpments, or just techs) were crucial, that is simply not deniable and not even bad at all!
We develop arms and techs for our needs and don't simply take those things that were offered to us like in the past, but there is nothing shameful in saying we needed foreign help at certain fields.

 

[shaktiman2010]

^^I thanked your post by mistake. Kaveri was built for one purpose. Powering the Tejas. It didn't manage to do that. It didn't even manage to power to tejas mk2. So stop saying it is not a failure just coz it passed flight trials. It failed its purpose. It's a failure.

LCA was not only objective of Kaveri project. Then you missed the bigger picture.

Real objective of Kaveri project was to create India's own aero-engine designs, materialisation and proving the Indian design in actual flight tests, creating aero-engine research infrastructure in country for future research in aero-engines space. And GTRE has succeeded in that.

And, without GTRE's advances in aero-engine R&D, Snecma would never offer JV to Indians.

 

[shaktiman2010]

The reality is that from the start itself we were not interested in foreign collaboration.

So you are saying that India was being offered fighter aircraft engine technology and GoI rejected it and went for Kaveri project?

Give me a source for this claim.

 

[sancho]

The reality is that from the start itself we were not interested in foreign collaboration.

Exactly, that's the sad fact! We could easily had gone for Russian RD 33 / 93 engines as a stop gap, that we produce at HAL anyway and now powers JF 17. The even better choice would have been Snecma M53 engines, that we use in the Mirage 2000s (64kN dry / 95kN AB thrust, comparable to the GE 414 engine that LCA MK2 will get!!!). Same goes for radar development, using Elta 2032 of the shelf and co-developing an AESA version together with them. There were enough options for us, that even was available during the sanction times, because Russia, France and Israel were and are reliable partners for us.

 

[shaktiman2010]

tell me one thing if a engine is not able to provide you with the required thrust what will you do with am not saying its a complete failure but it is also not a full sucess

Thrust is a matter of scaling.

GE didn't design their first F-16 engine in one shot. They went in iterative fasion. First they made a lower thrust version and then gradually went up on thrust in subsequent versions.

People are calling Kaveri a failure because they are not familiar with how aero-engine R&D cycle works.

 

[prototype]

LCA was not only objective of Kaveri project. Then you missed the bigger picture.

Real objective of Kaveri project was to create India's own aero-engine designs, materialisation and proving the Indian design in actual flight tests, creating aero-engine research infrastructure in country for future research in aero-engines space. And GTRE has succeeded in that.

And, without GTRE's advances in aero-engine R&D, Snecma would never offer JV to Indians.

Kaveri succeeded,do u really think it achieved the desired thrust?

About GRTE and Indian aerospace design's,it took SNECMA 13 long yrs to develop M88 engine(even after half a century of experience),the people controlling GRTE will be really fool's who thought they will easily pull it of with no prior experience in this field.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Exactly, that's the sad fact! We could easily had gone for Russian RD 33 / 93 engines as a stop gap, that we produce at HAL anyway and now powers JF 17. The even better choice would have been Snecma M53 engines, that we use in the Mirage 2000s (64kN dry / 95kN AB thrust, comparable to the GE 414 engine that LCA MK2 will get!!!). Same goes for radar development, using Elta 2032 of the shelf and co-developing an AESA version together with them. There were enough options for us, that even was available during the sanction times, because Russia, France and Israel were and are reliable partners for us.

Wrong. Cryogenic engine technology wasn't available to India.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Kaveri succeeded,do u really think it achieved the desired thrust?

About GRTE and Indian aerospace design's,it took SNECMA 13 long yrs to develop M88 engine(even after half a century of experience),the people controlling GRTE will be really fool's who thought they will easily pull it of with no prior experience in this field.

Are you saying that Indian engine design is failure? Then how it passed high altitude tests in Russia?

 

[Whiplash]

Are you saying that Indian engine design is failure? Then how it passed high altitude tests in Russia?

What is wrong with you? do you know the meaning of failure? he's not saying it doesn't work. It does. And so it managed to pass the super olympics galactica 50 thousand kilometer high altitude tests. But in the end it did NOT achieve the required thrust. It is NOT powering the LCA. and it FAILED