AMCA based Advanced Fighter Bomber: is this what IAF need?

[Abingdonboy]

MoD's delays are not influenced by threads on PDF. I do agree that speculative threads are unnecessary.

Of course not! But it's this sort of mindset I'm attacking. Where people who are ignorant to basic facts automatically assume foul-play or mal-practice. It happens time and again right from the person on the street to tv anchors/journos to "politicans". It's a corrosive mindset that HAS affected and damaged India's national security.

 

[faithfulguy]

IA needs Rafale as stop gap solution. But I would agree that if these 2 years of delay didn' yield us anything except cost overruns then Rafale better be screwed as punishment but in that case MKI production line would need extension .

If this deal falls threw then France should be neglected in every future tender .But since France is only European country which supported us during our sanction period hence I think deal would be finalized with in next 60 days.

France would not share the latest tech for Rafale. India can kiss that good bye. However, India should still buy some of the planes as the stop gap measure. Save the TOT money for something else.

Snecma has already been kicked out. It' only Kaveri. DRDO should allocate more money and mind hour to make Kaveri successful.
.

Kaveri is successful as the power plant for trains and UAV. So its a successful program. Its just not successful on a Mirage 2000 class fighter such as LCA.

 

[IND151]

Depleting squadron strength, so we need jets immediately. At least 300 more jets are in dire need of retirement. We can't wait for a 5th gen jet to be developed and mature. And Rafales bring a lot of capability to the table, that LCA mkX can't.

Indeed.

However such comparison is void-ab-initio as one is LCA and other is MCA.

Why not screw Rafale purchase program, concentrate on LCA mk2, and LCA mk3 ,some bombers and 5 gen jets.

Rafale is needed. AMCA will take some time and we need new platform immediately to replace old jets.

However in future, IAF should have only 5 types of Fighter jets LCA, AMCA, Pak Fa/FGFA,AFB and Super MKIs.

It is possible that IAF retire LCA and Super MKI completely (in distant future) and may operate only AMCA, AFB and FGFA.

Snecma has already been kicked out. It' only Kaveri. DRDO should allocate more money and mind hour to make Kaveri successful.



It's better to develop Nirbhay and then work on increasing it's range by 2000km.

Nirbhay with 2,000 KM range is definitely on agenda of Indian planners, I think.

 

[IND151]

Of course not! But it's this sort of mindset I'm attacking. Where people who are ignorant to basic facts automatically assume foul-play or mal-practice. It happens time and again right from the person on the street to tv anchors/journos to "politicans". It's a corrosive mindset that HAS affected and damaged India's national security.

I think that IAF needs a dedicated CAS fighter hence I proposed the AF, based on AMCA.

If you do think we don't need AFB, explain why.

 

[IND151]

@Abingdonboy @sancho > your opinions are welcome.

 

[sancho]

@Abingdonboy @sancho > your opinions are welcome.

Your requirements doesn't really fit, on the one hand you want range comparable to FGFA, on the other hand only a CAS fighter and mainly are trying to create a niche that doesn't realy exist. FGFA will have strike capability and unlike F22 it will be even fairly credible, which is why we don't need another stealth fighter for strikes (F35 counterpart).
Secondly, we already develop the AURA UCAV, which is the the far better counterpart to FGFA, than a stealth strike fighter would be, since it will take over all risky strike roles (SEAD, deep strikes, forwarded electronic attack, nuclear strikes), besides FGFA.
And CAS doesn't require stealth capabilities, even a light prob trainer can do CAS and might be even better than a stealth fighter in this role, since it's far more maneuverable at low attacks. But in modern warfare most of CAS is diverted to drones anyway and IAF already has stated their interest and the importance of adding armed drones. Not to mention that IAF will have LCA, Rafale and MKIs for CAS in the next 3 x decades.

 

[IND151]

Your requirements doesn't really fit, on the one hand you want range comparable to FGFA, on the other hand only a CAS fighter and mainly are trying to create a niche that doesn't realy exist. FGFA will have strike capability and unlike F22 it will be even fairly credible, which is why we don't need another stealth fighter for strikes (F35 counterpart).
Secondly, we already develop the AURA UCAV, which is the the far better counterpart to FGFA, than a stealth strike fighter would be, since it will take over all risky strike roles (SEAD, deep strikes, forwarded electronic attack, nuclear strikes), besides FGFA.
And CAS doesn't require stealth capabilities, even a light prob trainer can do CAS and might be even better than a stealth fighter in this role, since it's far more maneuverable at low attacks. But in modern warfare most of CAS is diverted to drones anyway and IAF already has stated their interest and the importance of adding armed drones. Not to mention that IAF will have LCA, Rafale and MKIs for CAS in the next 3 x decades.

The ferry range required for AFB in OP is 4000 KM+ while Pak FA has ferry range of 5500 KM.

If LCA has ferry range of 3,000 KM (Off coarse with fuel tanks) then AFB is bound to have range of 4,000 KM (with fuel tanks off-coarse).

So there can be no comparison between AMCA/AFB and Pak Fa.

And CAS doesn't require stealth capabilities, even a light prob trainer can do CAS and might be even better than a stealth fighter in this role, since it's far more maneuverable at low attacks

The proposed AFB is intended to be capable of acting both as dedicated CAS and Stealth Fighter for Surgical strike.

I.e like F-35 which can act as CAS, while utilizing its all hard points when stealth is not needed and if stealth is needed it will carry weapons in IWB only.

 

[PoKeMon]

However in future, IAF should have only 5 types of Fighter jets LCA, AMCA, Pak Fa/FGFA,AFB and Super MKIs.

It is possible that IAF retire LCA and Super MKI completely (in distant future) and may operate only AMCA, AFB and FGFA.

Then what will happen to those 126 Rafales which are yet to be inducted with 30 year lifetime?

 

[IND151]

Then what will happen to those 126 Rafales which are yet to be inducted with 30 year lifetime?

I am talking about very distant future.

 

[PoKeMon]

I am talking about very distant future.

Then I dont see LCA either. Bot LCA Mk XX and Rafale are getting inducted at similar time frame and will probably age together. may be in 2 decades we will see another 5th gen project for a single engine light weight fighter. LCA airframe is not that upgrade aspiring.

 

[sancho]

The ferry range required for AFB in OP is 4000 KM+ while Pak FA has ferry range of 5500 KM.

If LCA has ferry range of 3,000 KM (Off coarse with fuel tanks) then AFB is bound to have range of 4,000 KM (with fuel tanks off-coarse).

So there can be no comparison between AMCA/AFB and Pak Fa.

Yes there is, because both are long range operations with stealth capability, which falls into FGFAs and AURAs roles, therefor no need for either AMCA nor your AFB. And the mid range is covered by Rafale and MKI anyway.

The proposed AFB is intended to be capable of acting both as dedicated CAS and Stealth Fighter for Surgical strike.

I.e like F-35 which can act as CAS, while utilizing its all hard points when stealth is not needed and if stealth is needed it will carry weapons in IWB only.

Every multi role fighter can do CAS, the reason for F35 is, that it's more geared to strike roles than F22 is, although both are multi role fighters. We see the same difference between Su 35 and Su 34, while the Su 30MKI is the more balanced mix in between, just like the FGFA will be more balanced, while the Pak Fa in general is more balanced than the US stealth fighters.
And once again, IAF is not phasing out all non stealth fighters like the US does, they will remain with 3/4th of the fleet beeing 4.5th gen fighters in 3 different classes, which makes adding another AMCA/AFB useless, since all A2A and A2G, as well as all weight classes are already covered.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Depleting squadron strength, so we need jets immediately. At least 300 more jets are in dire need of retirement. We can't wait for a 5th gen jet to be developed and mature. And Rafales bring a lot of capability to the table, that LCA mkX can't.

Right, but still i don't thing IAF will induct all 126 rafale before 2022-25...... It will take time and not before 10 years.... Even France has Less than your signed deal while Rafale is Top end fighter of France.

 

[HariPrasad]

Hello friends.

AMCA is on drawing board and it will be a 5th gen fighter (and multi-role if sources are right.)

However, if this is true,its close ground capacity will be rather limited.

In my opinion we need a dedicated close ground support aircraft with limited air patrolling and reconnaissance capability.

I.e a aircraft which is multirole but its mainly a GCS/ Ground attack aircraft.(70:30)

just like Su-30 is multirole fighter but mainly a air superiority fighter.

This AFB should be based on AMCA which will solve many issues and all other medium weight fighters should be replaced with AMCA and AFB.

This AFB should be able to have good payload and be able to carry 6-8 tons of ammunition, have Ferry arnge in excess of 4,000 KM and combat radius of 800+ KM, capable of super cruise.

It should have 2 engines each having 11,000 KG wet trust.

In future, IAF should have only 5 types of fighters: LCA, AMCA, Pak FA/FGFA, AFB and Super MKI.


Currently we operate 6-7 type of fighters which creates several issues.

Hence reduction in number of types is necessary; apart from that a dedicated GCS aircraft is needed.

@Capt.Popeye eye @sancho @Manticore @SpArK @Penguin @Oscar > Your opinions are welcome.

Hi Indic.

I want to differ on some points.

It should use single engine and not double. the engine shall be the one used for PAKFA final version with more than 160 Kn Power. It can easily 7 tons or 8 tons as you stated and super cruise

It should have all capability of sukhois so that we may use it in cost effective manner in place of sukhoi.

 

[IND151]

Hi Indic.

I want to differ on some points.

It should use single engine and not double. the engine shall be the one used for PAKFA final version with more than 160 Kn Power. It can easily 7 tons or 8 tons as you stated and super cruise

It should have all capability of sukhois so that we may use it in cost effective manner in place of sukhoi.

I had similar idea. But AMCA will have two engines and the idea is to base AFB on AMCA so they will share power plant too. So naturally it too will have two engines.

 

[janon]

Right, but still i don't thing IAF will induct all 126 rafale before 2022-25...... It will take time and not before 10 years.... Even France has Less than your signed deal while Rafale is Top end fighter of France.

And the same goes for all other planned inductions as well. LCA will also take 10 years, if not more for all planned numbers to be completed. Same with FGFA, which will start only in 2020 at the earliest. So we need to induct the Rafales simultaneously, to replace the hundreds of jets that are to be retired. We will induct about one squadron of MKIs every year upto 2018, possibly upto 2020. Those, Rafales and LCAs are all needed. If we could churn out and induct 30 LCAs every year, starting tomorrow, then maybe we could have bypassed Rafale and waited for AMCA. But that is impossible.

As for France, it has a small airspace to defend, compared to India. And no hostile neighbours, while we have two of them to keep at bay. If we were only as big as France, then our MKIs themselves would have sufficed. But since our country is so large, we need different jets in different price ranges and huge numbers. So even our mid tiered fleet will need to be larger than France's.