Ambala to station first squadron of MMRCA fighters

[lightoftruth]

looking at the self destructive nature of pakistan i dont feel we need to do anything, few taliboonies are good enough threat for military installations these days in pakistan.

lol at those who are questioning the proximity of an aircraft base and measuring the range of their subsonic cruise missiles.

Akash Surface-to-Air Missile System - Army Technology

 

[prabhakar]

don't forget... PAf assets are on the mercy of US and Russia.... anytime they can stop the supply.

 

[peep]

plz don't make any more fun of that think_tank plz

 

[Windjammer]

The behaviour of Indian members is like...."Abi betey peda nahin houey aur rishtey ki fikar lag gaye".

I'm sure some decades earlier, no one thought the MiG-21 will still be flying with IAF, most of them should have been replaced with LCA .....but some twenty years later, the first LCA squadron is yet to be inducted.....so let's first wait and see when the first Rafael unit becomes operational. !!

 

[Gessler]

You hit the nail on that one. The only reason why they are buying J-10B/FC-20 is because the U.S is a very unreliable ally and they don't want to put all their eggs in a single basket. I doubt FC-20 can match the Block 52 even. It certainly isn't an answer to the IAF's heavy hitters, the MKI and Rafale, else the chinese wouldn't be busy with their J-16. They would have dumped the J-16 long ago and went with the J-10 if it was really an equal.

Correctly assesses. The J-10/FC-20 deal will be a waste of money cuz it won't give
PAF any sort of new capability,,,all it does is add up the maintenance cost and operating
cost of two same type of fighters from two different sources. Interoperability will be
a headache for Pak concering its overall defence spending.

Plus we have Pakistan's cash crunch, and also they have a whole host of absolete interceptors without bvr as well.

Well even JF-17 does not have BVR capability as of now. Just yet it remains a WVR-only
fighter.

How are they going to replace 241 fighters? It took them 3 years to induct just around 45 JF-17s jets. They aren't going to get any new F-16s now. And only 36 J-10B if a miracle happens and they scrape funds for it. PAF is still paying the price for mismanagement in the 90s.

And after the Mirage-III/Vs are retired, PAF will lack a dedicated ground-attack aircraft
with sufficient range and payload capacity. CAS missions will also be hit. Not that
PAF has ever been successful in supporting ground ops in history. (The A-5s are
already retired).

All in all maybe I think buying second-hand F-16C from some foreign air force will
be a better and more economical and productive option than buying J-10 and
spend a fortune on developing new infrastructure, new training facilities and all the
stuff...in spite of all this, the extent of PAF's operational capabiities will still remain
the same.

Another problem is there - the F-16s cannot operate alongside the ZDK-03 AEW plane,
and the J-10s cannot operate alongside Erieye AEW planes! What a headache. The
PAF's force-multiplication works are full of gaping holes regarding this matter. Consider
this example, if by chance all ZDKs are downed by AWACS-killers of IAF, the J-10s will
no longer be able to operate in a net-centric evironment, same is true vice-versa regarding
the Erieye and F-16. In such cases, all PAF ac will have to succumb to the radar
advantage of the Su-30MKI N011M BARS.

The future PAF will be a very crammed force which will have to operate in very tight
circles and the smallest mistake could be the end. A situation PAF had never faced before.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Entire PAF bases are inbetween 200km with Logics from Pakistanis we must launch 2 Regiments of PJ10s. Then whats the Need for Investing on IAF....


Now aspersions are being raised when will RAFALE enter.....Few Days back it was MRCA will go to USA.What Next ??

 

[notorious_eagle]

There are routine IAF aircraft incursions over Pakistan. In 2008, an Su-30MKI and a Mirage-2000 came right into the Lahore sector,

10km inside Pakistan territory is considered right being above the Lahore sector . Sorry but i couldn't help overlook this funny assertion, as soon as the jets came close to the border they were intercepted, locked and tailed. You would have a better argument if these incoming bogies were not detected and were allowed to roam freely in the airspace.

back in 1997, MiG-25s used to fly freely over Islamabad.

There is only recorded event of that happening, but you are making it sound like it was a routine occurrence . It was only a show of force, it did not achieve anything tangible for the IAF.

I don't think PAF has acruired the capability to detect enemy aircraft
movements before they intrude well into Pak territory, just imagine what if they were
equipped with air-dropped nukes, Lahore & Islamabad will be reduced to ashes even
before you can detect what ac came over your land. Where were your Erieyes sleeping?

How did you come to the conclusion that PAF does not has the capability to detect enemy aircraft movements? Please expand more on this point. It does appear that you need to educate yourself on PAF's radar and C4I network.

The BrahMos is an a exceptional weapon to take out PAF airbases first thing in war, this
is massively cut down Pak ac sortie rates and air operations close to Indian border will take
a massive beating, there are close to 200 Block-II PJ-10s deployed near the Pak border
alone, and they can strike even Islamabad giving you the least possible reaction time
of any operational land-attack cruise missile in the world.

A good weapon no doubt but it has exceptionally high IR signature which makes it a magnet for a heat seeking missile. Any launch of the Brahmos will be detected by PAF over the horizon radars, after that i will leave it upto PAF's professionals on how they counter it. Its a cat and mouse game between India and Pakistan, if India can launch cruise missile strikes on Pakistan than so can Pakistan. Your General Staff is quite well aware of that and that is why their posture and actions speak for themselves instead of the empty chest chumping that you are advocating.

I think you need to stop living in the 1960s and 1970s. A lot has changed now. Back then PAF had qualitative superiority over IAF and you also recieved the best search radars and stuff from US, while IAF had poor capabilities in these aspects.

PAF at no point in time maintained superior edge qualitatively. IAF was fielding MIG21's and Hunters which were superior to PAF's F104's and F86's in every aspect. It was just Indian propaganda that made the average Indian think otherwise, or else the facts on the ground were different.

In 2012 of today, you have lost the qualitative superiority as well. IAF has not just numbers but operates Asia's best operational jet fighter after Su-35S. Which is all set to become more lethal. IAF pilot's training levels have vastly improved, and so have our tactics and equipment. And secondly, PAF has completely lost the capability to carry out an effective offensive against IAF without losing their whole air force.

Why would PAF carry out offensive sorties inside India when they can cause the exact same amount of damage by launching stand off weapons. IAF no doubt has improved leaps and bounds in the last 2 decades, but looking at the balance it still does not has the punch to knock out PAF fast and quick. If it was a long and static war, no doubt the IAF will prevail but the entire premise behind IAF's new doctrine is to fight PAF quick and short. That in itself is a handicap for IAF as the PAF is equipped to fight off the IAF for atleast 45 days.

And would you plz take the trouble of explaining to me how an air force can survive if it keeps on sticking to the same level of battlefield effectiveness with their aircraft for decades while the opponents are vastly increasing they're numbers as well as strategic versatility of striking hard and striking deep day by day?

I will not bother explaining it to you because you have just showed me how ignorant you are when it comes to Air Combat by making the highlighted statement. If you honestly think that PAF's battle effectiveness is the same today as it was a decade ago, than we really don't have much to argue because your simply ignorant of PAF's capabilities. My suggestion to you is, go to the military aviation page and start reading up especially on PAF's radar coverage. After you are done your research, than we an have a chat because as of now you simply lack the knowledge to continue this debate.

Cheers

Well even JF-17 does not have BVR capability as of now. Just yet it remains a WVR-only fighter.

Please FOR GODS SAKE read up in the Military Aviation page, do some research because you are making a fool out of yourself.

 

[Gessler]

The behaviour of Indian members is like...."Abi betey peda nahin houey aur rishtey ki fikar lag gaye".

I'm sure some decades earlier, no one thought the MiG-21 will still be flying with IAF, most of them should have been replaced with LCA .....but some twenty years later, the first LCA squadron is yet to be inducted.....so let's first wait and see when the first Rafael unit becomes operational. !!

You don't have an effective answer for MKI yet and you wait for Rafale? Dream
on.

IAF is in no hurry for LCA like PAF is for JF-17. We already have the MKI. Most of
IAF's Mig-21s are the Bisons which have the powerful EL/L-8222 jammers and
BVR missiles - you maybe shocked to know that a mig-21 can shoot down your jf-17
from BVR range and then scoot, while jf-17 will have to wait until the opponents
comes into WVR before attacking them, but most possibly you'll be downed even
before the enemy comes into WVR. I don't think IAF needs MKI to take out jf-17.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Moderators Please close this Thread.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Moderators Please close this Thread.

I agree

Too many fanboy armchair generals here on this thread, no chance of a proper intellectual discourse.

 

[Windjammer]

You don't have an effective answer for MKI yet and you wait for Rafale? Dream
on.

IAF is in no hurry for LCA like PAF is for JF-17. We already have the MKI. Most of
IAF's Mig-21s are the Bisons which have the powerful EL/L-8222 jammers and
BVR missiles - you maybe shocked to know that a mig-21 can shoot down your jf-17
from BVR range and then scoot, while jf-17 will have to wait until the opponents
comes into WVR before attacking them, but most possibly you'll be downed even
before the enemy comes into WVR. I don't think IAF needs MKI to take out jf-17.

Ya, Ya, even late Saddam Hussain promised the world....mother of all battles.....NOT. !!

 

[Backbencher]

The behaviour of Indian members is like...."Abi betey peda nahin houey aur rishtey ki fikar lag gaye".

I'm sure some decades earlier, no one thought the MiG-21 will still be flying with IAF, most of them should have been replaced with LCA .....but some twenty years later, the first LCA squadron is yet to be inducted.....so let's first wait and see when the first Rafael unit becomes operational. !!

Valid point
Lets just wait atleast for the GOI and France to discuss the prise first .

 

[Gessler]

There is only recorded event of that happening, but you are making it sound like it was a routine occurrence

I don't have an uncle in the IAF but I know from other sources that there were multiple
incursions over Pak airspace. But as you must have known, no air force will publicise
all of them.

It was only a show of force, it did not achieve anything tangible for the IAF.

Not true. These flights gatherend vital photo-reconnaissance and ELINT data over
Pakistani nuclear facilities and other important locations.

A good weapon no doubt but it has exceptionally high IR signature which makes it a magnet for a heat seeking missile.

Thats true for all sorts of cruise missiles. But its speed lessens the reaction time availble
for countering it. It must be noted PJ-10s are always launched in salvos.

Any launch of the Brahmos will be detected by PAF over the horizon radars, after that i will leave it upto PAF's professionals on how they counter it. Its a cat and mouse game between India and Pakistan, if India can launch cruise missile strikes on Pakistan than so can Pakistan.

When did I say otherwise? My point since post #1 has been that Pak missiles will be
far less effective against Indian targets than compared vis-a-vis Indian missiles on
Pak targets. For reasons that I have explained above regarding IAF's bases SAM cover
with Akash+SPYDER, and our better radar network and Pak missile's relatively slow
speed (giving us maximum reaction time) to go with it.

Your General Staff is quite well aware of that and that is why their posture and actions speak for themselves instead of the empty chest chumping that you are advocating.

What posture and actions are you talking about?

PAF at no point in time maintained superior edge qualitatively. IAF was fielding MIG21's and Hunters which were superior to PAF's F104's and F86's in every aspect.

Both F104 and F86 were supersonic and equipped with AAMs, while only Mig-21 was
supersonic and Hunter was a subsonic that could not cross Mach 1 while F-104 zoomed
at Mach 2 and F-86F was also supersonic.

PAF jets were equipped with the AIM-9 Sidewinder missile that is highly reliable and
well-serviced. While the only fighter in IAF inventory with missiles was the MiG-21
it was equipped with the infamous K-13, a poor copy of AIM-9 which was so useless
that it was scrapped after the war.

So now you're looking at a scenario of F-104 + F-86 with supersonic speed, AIM-9 missiles
and MiG-21 with poor K-13 missiles and subsonic Hunter with guns and cannons.

And PAF had recieved the best training from USAF instructors while IAF recieved training
from Soviets who themselves were not really well off.

Why would PAF carry out offensive sorties inside India when they can cause the exact same amount of damage by launching stand off weapons. IAF no doubt has improved leaps and bounds in the last 2 decades, but looking at the balance it still does not has the punch to knock out PAF fast and quick. If it was a long and static war, no doubt the IAF will prevail but the entire premise behind IAF's new doctrine is to fight PAF quick and short. That in itself is a handicap for IAF as the PAF is equipped to fight off the IAF for atleast 45 days.

So substituting one capability with the other? But today IAF can carry out both standoff
strikes and strikes with aircraft inside Pak territory, we are only building on our capabilities,
we're not substituting one for the other.

I think most of PAF's airbases will be taken out within the first 5 days.

I will not bother explaining it to you because you have just showed me how ignorant you are when it comes to Air Combat by making the highlighted statement. If you honestly think that PAF's battle effectiveness is the same today as it was a decade ago, than we really don't have much to argue because your simply ignorant of PAF's capabilities. My suggestion to you is, go to the military aviation page and start reading up especially on PAF's radar coverage. After you are done your research, than we an have a chat because as of now you simply lack the knowledge to continue this debate.

I have not noticed any such vast increase either, but if you look at IAF, we are
making improvements overs a wide area of operational capabilities and acquiring
new capabilities to wage war. Far better than what PAF has been doing since
the least 10 years and what you are planning to do for the forseeable future.

 

[Gessler]

I agree

Too many fanboy armchair generals here on this thread, no chance of a proper intellectual discourse.

There are threads with far less productive discussions than this out there still
running fit and fine. Some even have no source for the OP article.

 

[SarkarRaj]