Am I too radical for Pakistan?

[Kabira]

Hindi hasn't replaced anything, people still speak their local languages.

These are not languages but more like dialects of hindi. Punjabi, gujarati, marathi, bengali etc are languages.

 

[Luffy 500]

What's wrong with diversity. Islam is NOT opposed to diversity and plurality of language. Allah (swt) is the Most Wise and All-Knowing.

By His great wisdom, He made many languages and made people of different colours, as He, may He be glorified and exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours”

[ar-Room 30:22].

If you look back at historical Muslim empires, none of them were homogeneous states but multi-ethnic multinational states that gave considerable autonomy at both provincial and communal level (for non-Muslim). Those empires were models of social harmony and were utopian multicultural societies by today's western standards. In fact federal models can strengthen countries like Pakistan and one of the reason for 1971 tragedy was top-down tyrannical unitary state approach of a secular military dictatorship IMO.

The basic conditions of a harmonious multi-cultural society is power-sharing and cultural and communal autonomy. Muslims should NOT follow western secular-materialistic model of nation building devoid of human empathy. Blindly aping the west has lead the Muslim countries to the precarious situation they are in today.

As for PAK, without Islam it has no basis of existence. Infact PAK can be a perfect model of Islamic unity where multiple ethnicities are living together. Each of the PAK provinces have all the European coined Nation-state criteria to be
independent states but they are together just because religion. For a muslim, islam should always supersede ethnic,cultural,lingual and national identity. otherwise he/she has to do serious introspection about their level of faith.

No offense to the OP @KediKesenFare but he seems to be very much effected by Ataturk's bloody tyrannical approach and all his views are informed by a kemalist secular materialistic paradigm obsessed with control and domination by a single group. Ataturk's turkey model has been a abject failure and all those secular tyrannical leaders after him, who tried to impose that satanic model in muslim lands massively failed ending with ropes around their neck or being lynched by a angry mob. At least secularists in the muslim world can learn somethings from the powers haring model of the west they so blindly worship. Countries like USA, Switzerland have good federal model based on power sharing. Even take the example of India - 29 states based on lingual distinction and counting.


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https://islamqa.info/en/132957

Why are there so many languages when the origin is one?
Why are there so many languages in the world when we know that all nations are one in origin, namely our father Adam and our mother Hawwa’?

Praise be to Allah

Allah knows best. Your Lord is the Most Wise, All-Knowing. We do not have any certain knowledge of the wisdom behind that, but we know that our Lord is Most Wise, All-Knowing. He, may He be glorified and exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Certainly your Lord is Most Wise, All-Knowing”

[al-An ‘aam 6:83]

“And Allah is Ever All-Knowing, Most Wise”

[an-Nisa’ 4:11].

By His great wisdom, He made many languages and made people of different colours, as He, may He be glorified and exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours”

[ar-Room 30:22].

The reason may be so as to highlight His almighty power, for He, may He be glorified, is able to make one language for some people and another language for others, for this is more indicative of great power.

There may be other reasons for it of which we are unaware and that we cannot comprehend, but scholars other than us may understand them.

The point is that one of the clearest reasons behind it is that He, may He be glorified and exalted, is able to do all things, therefore He gave people many languages and told us that this is one of His signs (interpretation of the meaning): “And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours” [ar-Room 30:22].

Just as He made them of many colours, including red, black and white, and shades in between, and He has caused them to vary in size, so that some are tall and some are short, and some are in between, and He has caused you to vary in attitude and intellect, the same also applies to the issue of languages. All of that is indicative of His almighty power and highlights the fact that He does whatever He wills, may He be glorified and exalted, and there may be other great reasons behind that which we do not understand. End quote.

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allah have mercy on him).

 

[SW187]

Having one language across the entire country makes it easier for everyone to communicate. I don't see anything wrong with learning your regional or historical language, but Urdu should come first, and English should come second as it is an international language. In this day and age we live in a global world, and the ability to communicate with people from all countries is essential for trade, hence the need for English.
Yes there are people in Pakistan who know 3 languages, but what help is it to them to know regional dialects of no relevance outside their village or city?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Having one language across the entire country makes it easier for everyone to communicate. I don't see anything wrong with learning your regional or historical language, but Urdu should come first, and English should come second as it is an international language. In this day and age we live in a global world, and the ability to communicate with people from all countries is essential for trade, hence the need for English.
Yes there are people in Pakistan who know 3 languages, but what help is it to them to know regional dialects of no relevance outside their village or city?

All Paks are trilingual.. native+urdu+english .. some know more..

 

[SW187]

All Paks are trilingual.. native+urdu+english .. some know more..

All, are not...
Although I think they should be

 

[KediKesenFare3]

@DESERT FIGHTER @Kambojaric @Kaptaan @Max @Pakistani Exile @Imad.Khan

I appreciate all of your inputs. Thank you very much for broadening my horizon. I have now a closer understanding of essential aspects regarding Pakistan's current social state and identity issues. However, I don't exactly understand how the Pakistani state can achieve the goal of a united nation if the majority of its citizens is critical towards any kind of cultural and social homogenizing policy. I just don't think that giving more time is the only solution for changing the ethnical self-perception of the majority of people in Pakistan.

@Imad.Khan
Turkey and Pakistan have almost the same size but Turkey has 81 provinces (even more if you take North Cyprus into account) whereas Pakistan consists of only 8 administrative units. On the other hand, a comparison between Turkey and Pakistan is unreliable in terms of the number of provinces due to the fact that Turkey isn't a federal state.

Green: federations
Blue: unitary states

Turkey is a unitary state, thus the number of provinces is irrelevant.

 

[Pakistani E]

@DESERT FIGHTER @Kambojaric @Kaptaan @Max @Pakistani Exile @Imad.Khan

I appreciate all of your inputs. Thank you very much for broadening my horizon. I have now a closer understanding of essential aspects regarding Pakistan's current social state and identity issues. However, I don't exactly understand how the Pakistani state can achieve the goal of a united nation if the majority of its citizens is critical towards any kind of cultural and social homogenizing policy. I just don't think that giving more time is the only solution for changing the ethnical self-perception of the majority of people in Pakistan.

@Imad.Khan
Turkey and Pakistan have almost the same size but Turkey has 81 provinces (even more if you take North Cyprus into account) whereas Pakistan consists of only 8 administrative units. On the other hand, a comparison between Turkey and Pakistan is unreliable in terms of the number of provinces due to the fact that Turkey isn't a federal state.

Green: federations
Blue: unitary states

Turkey is a unitary state, thus the number of provinces is irrelevant.

I don't think Turkey and Pakistan are a fair comparison to be honest, the ethnic breakdown of Pakistan is much more diverse instead of having 2 major ethnic groups like Turkey, and even one with over 75% population. I think this is the biggest problem in trying to compare these two countries in terms of cultural assimilation.

I don't believe having different ethnic groups or speaking different languages is a problem. But trying to force them in to one just will not work apart from alienating certain groups. For example, which major ethnic group do you want to do assimilation towards apart from Urdu which is spoken as a mother tongue by only 8-9%. I understand exactly where you are coming from, but I personally believe having a diverse country is not an issue. What we do need is a unifying ideology, Islam does the role to an extent, but culture always trumps religion. Which is why I personally favour including the Indus Valley as the birth of Pakistan, not the Arab invasion. Arabs are still proud of their pre-islamic history, there is no reason why we cannot do the same without rejecting our faith.

P.S. I forgot to mention, I greatly appreciate your concerns for us and I hold all your opinions in a very high esteem. I can tell from the things you write, you have nothing but goodwill for us. Let me assure you, my respect is the same for Turkey and the Turks.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

2 major ethnic groups like Turkey,

Who told you this? Turkish genetic stock is far, far, far more diverse than Pakistan. It only looks like that to you because they have pushed their population through a grinder machine making one people, one nation, one language and above all united under one flag. They have inputs from Bosnia, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Circcasians, Tatars, Dagestani, Ossetians and the list goes on ....

@KediKesenFare I will follow up with another post when I get time to wrap up my first post.

What's wrong

Yeh there is. You. I am sick of seeing your crappings. Avoiding them is as difficult as avoiding the dog pooh in the local park where I jog and as obnoxious.

 

[sady]

It is quite simple. A vast majority of Pakistanis identify themselves as muslim first and then jump to ethnicity like Punjabi, Pathan and the tribe or caste etc bypassing Pakistani. What we failed to do;

1 Merge Pakistani identity with being a muslim.

2 Extending the idea of Pakistan as a start of ultimate Confedration of muslim countries, even if this idea had not bloomed to success it would have been a seed or a basis of new identity. Israel is the only Jewish country even tough Jewish population is scattered throughout the world. The centrality of Israel in Jews of the world makes it a welcome ground for all ethnicities of Jews. Apart from some friction in colored Jews and Ashkenazi, the Israeli identity is almost joint with Jews, so much so that UK is equating anti semitism with Anti Israel. The dream of greater Israel is a part of this identity where being in the journey together creates more unison.

To make matters worse pseudo Islamic parties jumped in which disfigured the idea so much that a common Pakistani thought this is a face of Islamic system of government. Gen Zia added to the injury where Hudood ordinance was deemed enough to proclaim Islamisation complete.

The idea of truely Islamic state had died a long time ago with it the Pakistani identity. Army has been for long trying to keep this idea and country together and has been successful to some extent but this artificial injections of nationalism and patriotism will only take you this far. The secularist and so called liberal agenda will further erode what is left. The state is not bothered about blasphemy anymore only concerning with terror or other anti state activities.

God save the republic.

 

[SW187]

It is quite simple. A vast majority of Pakistanis identify themselves as muslim first and then jump to ethnicity like Punjabi, Pathan and the tribe or caste etc bypassing Pakistani. What we failed to do;

1 Merge Pakistani identity with being a muslim.
.

So what happens to the non muslims living in Pakistan? Would you not want them to feel as if they belong?
I think a sense of Pakistani identity is what's missing, people already identify by religion or language, and that causes a divide.
If you live within the borders or Pakistan you should identify as a Pakistani first, not a muslim, or a Punjabi, etc, etc.

 

[Leader]

Hey guys,

I have been here for some years now and still don't understand many highly complex structures and dynamics in Pakistan's siyaset and society even though I really try keeping an open mind towards anything political that comes from Pakistani users here. I even read a couple of Pakistani newspaper on a regularly basis.

There is one main issue that bothers me most. Couple weeks ago there was an article regarding the extinction of some regional languages in Pakistan: http://www.dawn.com/news/1306783

Many users here and in the Pakistani part of the internet criticized the government for not preventing this regional languages from disappearance. And I asked myself: Why should the government help preserving this languages?

This lead me to the question why Pakistan's politicians don't implement a Pakistanization policy in every corner of Pakistan. I know many of you guys are super proud to be a Punjabi, Baloche, Kashmiri, Pashtu, Sindhi etc. But, pardon my language, who cares about these regional sub-identities?

I know that many people will argue that Islam is the sole and exclusive social glue of Pakistan that keeps the country and society together. In my opinion, it is not acceptable (and not healthy for Pakistan) that Muslim Punjabis in Pakistan and India have more in common than a Pakistani citizen of Punjabi and Baloch origin in Pakistan.

That's why, in fact, there are three very important markers for national identity:

Language; Culture; Religion

Other markers are clothing, food, physical appearance, values, norms etc. Anyway, the most important points here are:

Language - Urdu

Religion - Islam

Culture - ???

When it comes to culture, I'm not so sure whether there is a "pan-Pakistani" culture. Can someone give me a major characteristic that a citizen from Balochistan, Gilgit Baltistan and Sindh share apart from religion?

Why are people opposing the idea of a "one nation - one language - one religion" concept for Pakistan anyway? This is rather strange because typically religious people in the Islamic world don't care that much about their ethnic identity. Many Sunni Arabs and Kurds assimilated into the Turkish society. Secular Azeris in Iran are often fond of irredentist ideas whereas conservative Azeris tend to have a stronger Iranian identity.

Strangely enough, in case of Pakistan all of this assumptions are wrong. People are generally very religious, Islam plays a very important role in their lifes but yet people are sticking to their regional identities and traditions. But why? Can someone enlighten me, please?

Theoretically, as a Pakistani politician, I would try to systematically enforce Urdu in every part of the country. Only Urdu should be taught at schools, there should be a box "Pakistani" in the section about ethnicity in every census to strengthen a "pan-Pakistani" national identity. The children of Pakistan must learn that Pakistan is older than 70 years. The Indus Valley Civilisation must become a fixed part of school instruction, curricula and programs. The Pakistani civilization is thousands of years old. Educational school trips to archaeological sites would be a fine idea.

Even resettlement programs should be discussed. Punjabis and Sindh people could be resettled from crowded places in their home province to rural areas of Balochistan for the purpose of mixing up the different ethnicities like Turkey did after becoming a nation-state.

Focusing on religion as the main commonality among the different ethnicities in Pakistan is very dangerous. In fact, it creates a false sense of security. India with the help of Afghanistan is already trying to disturb the peace in Pakistan. Kabul and New Delhi are trying to awake a Pashtu nationalism in Pakistan. And I'm totally against any kind of federalization in Pakistan.

This is another thing that I don't understand. Why are people constantly demanding more and more provinces? You can ask a secular or religious Pakistani - both will explain to you that the current administrational system of Pakistan is not working very well. Why do you want to implement even more not working administrational units in the first place? Why do you want to pay monthly salaries to thousands of new deputies? The majority of the Pakistani diaspora is right now living in Anglo-Saxon states with federal governing systems. This system may work in those countries but it isn't a working and reliable system for Pakistan. It does not fit. Federal systems are only productive in wealthy and homogeneous societies.

Last but not least: I know that only a military-led government can impose all of these ideas. Therefore the democratic electoral system should be suspended for at least 25 years; centralization (of power) is the key issue.

So, am I too radical for Pakistan? Am I missing or ignoring important points? Sorry for my bad English and I apologize in advance if some of you feel insulted or offended by my posting. I'm just trying to understand a little bit more because I care for Pakistan.

identity is a fundamental right.. like look at turkey, for decades they have been committing crimes, murder, rape and all sort of inhuman violences against the Kurds, yet have failed and brought nothing but burden on conscience of people. if there is any conscience left that is.

 

[livingdead]

I don't think Turkey and Pakistan are a fair comparison to be honest, the ethnic breakdown of Pakistan is much more diverse instead of having 2 major ethnic groups like Turkey, and even one with over 75% population. I think this is the biggest problem in trying to compare these two countries in terms of cultural assimilation.

I don't believe having different ethnic groups or speaking different languages is a problem. But trying to force them in to one just will not work apart from alienating certain groups. For example, which major ethnic group do you want to do assimilation towards apart from Urdu which is spoken as a mother tongue by only 8-9%. I understand exactly where you are coming from, but I personally believe having a diverse country is not an issue. What we do need is a unifying ideology, Islam does the role to an extent, but culture always trumps religion. Which is why I personally favour including the Indus Valley as the birth of Pakistan, not the Arab invasion. Arabs are still proud of their pre-islamic history, there is no reason why we cannot do the same without rejecting our faith.

P.S. I forgot to mention, I greatly appreciate your concerns for us and I hold all your opinions in a very high esteem. I can tell from the things you write, you have nothing but goodwill for us. Let me assure you, my respect is the same for Turkey and the Turks.

what will including indus valley as birth of pakistan achieve? I dont think pakistan is a product of arab invasion is not really the point of division, whether its accurate or palatable to you is another issue. Also what about the people from ganga valley(as endearingly called by many pakistanis here).. which are aound 8%?
Its possible to forge a modern national identity without having an origin myth... and I think pakistan is doing it already by just having people living together, talking and dealing with each other everyday.. you just need to give it some time.

 

[sady]

So what happens to the non muslims living in Pakistan? Would you not want them to feel as if they belong?
I think a sense of Pakistani identity is what's missing, people already identify by religion or language, and that causes a divide.
If you live within the borders or Pakistan you should identify as a Pakistani first, not a muslim, or a Punjabi, etc, etc.

Pakistan didn't come into being for minorities otherwise United India was good enough.Minorities have the rights as written down in Islam, no more no less.

 

[Verve]

Successful survival of any language in modern world depends on the proper implementation of that language in education. Urdu will decline eventually as well as sciences, business studies etc are no longer taught in Urdu.

Take English out as the primary language in higher education (degrees etc) and Urdu will thrive. Otherwise, it will continue to diminish!

As for other local languages, it's for local people to decide and take action themselves. Local governments should decide if a specific language should be taught in schools within that area, after consultation with locals, and legislate accordingly.

 

[Pakistani E]

Who told you this? Turkish genetic stock is far, far, far more diverse than Pakistan. It only looks like that to you because they have pushed their population through a grinder machine making one people, one nation, one language and above all united under one flag. They have inputs from Bosnia, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Circcasians, Tatars, Dagestani, Ossetians and the list goes on ....

Ahhh what I replied with just disappeared, all of it.

@Horus @WebMaster @Jungibaaz What's going on?

what will including indus valley as birth of pakistan achieve? I dont think pakistan is a product of arab invasion is not really the point of division, whether its accurate or palatable to you is another issue. Also what about the people from ganga valley(as endearingly called by many pakistanis here).. which are aound 8%?
Its possible to forge a modern national identity without having an origin myth... and I think pakistan is doing it already by just having people living together, talking and dealing with each other everyday.. you just need to give it some time.

Why do you want us to deny our Indus Valley roots? I am content with having ancestry amongst indigenous and later migration groups. We can teach about the Kingdom of Porus, we can teach about Taxilla, Indo Greek, Backterians, the Rai Dynasty etc, Sikh Empire. The culture found in Balouchistan which pre-dates the Indus Valley itself, the Khanata of Kalat. Sooo many things to learn and teach. We are not a people without history, not do we need to spit on our ancestors to feel proud to be Pakistanis.

Any Pakistani who refuses links with what is now India has jingoistic nationalism to affect their views, what is now Pakistan has always been linked to its eastern AND western territories in some way or form. We do have ethnic groups both from sides and the locals.

It's all fine to have a modern identity, but we don't need to forget our ancestral ties to this region to forge that.