Armstrong
RETIRED TTA
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 19,390
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@Dillinger : I agree with some of what you say whereas I disagree with some !
I disagree with the following :
Now let us call the opposition by its name- Wahhabism- its preaching and its content can be interpreted to violate Article 5 of the constitution, which unequivocally demands loyalty and obedience to Pakistan’s state and constitution. The problem with applying Article 5 properly lies in the fact that Pakistan's government and legislative setup is not absent religion itself- as long as the constitution cannot be distanced from religion all such ideologies will simply continue to function under the pretext of advocating Islam. If the constitution is to be treated as an extension of Islamic law and teachings then it is difficult to delineate loyalty to the nation (constitution) from loyalty to religion. As long as such a loophole exists it will be difficult to reclaim the loyalty of the citizens.
Without effective implementation of the above the populace will grow belligerent towards the very authorities that are meant to protect them- rendering operations in populated areas extremely difficult. If the populace on the ground does not support you then you will bleed all the more as you try to dominate the ground.
If I were to break down 'why I disagree' in a few broad categories it would be as follows :
(a) One must try to understand the very nature of Pakistan as the vast majority of Pakistanis perceive it to be; for us Pakistan & Islam is interchangeable to the extent that any attempt to take Islam out of Pakistan would invite a terrible backlash from whole swaths of the population & will ultimately result in terrible bloodshed ! Therefore even if one were to have an opposing view-point any attempt to delineate Islam from Pakistan or Pakistan's Constitution would not only be political suicide for any Political Party but would most certainly lead to country wide Protests on a colossal scale at best & secession of whole parts of the country at the very worst. So even if just for expediency's sake we must recognize this as a Big No-Go for the next many...many decades.
(b) To understand why is the 'above' so one must try to understand the conceptualization of Islamic Polity as understood by most Pakistanis who advocate such a position; for many of us the conceptualization of any State where Muslims find themselves in a position of Governance requires certain societal, legal, economic & political paradigms or frameworks to adhere to. Therefore for many of us a State exists always in the ideological and not in the historical, cultural, ethnic, linguistic or even geographic realm; those are parts of our identities...yes & they must be cherished but we are also very much conscious of our overarching identity as Muslims & all the paradigms, the injunctions, standards & frameworks that come with it !
(c) The problem with applying Article 5 properly lies in the fact that Pakistan's government and legislative setup is not absent religion itself- as long as the constitution cannot be distanced from religion all such ideologies will simply continue to function under the pretext of advocating Islam.
Every Ideology whether religious or secular would continue to function irrespective of whether it is excluded or included in the constitution or even the dominant culture/narrative of the land for that is the very nature of 'belief'; even in Secular countries you've got Islamist, even Socialist countries you've got Capitalists & so on & so forth for every single socio-political-economic or legal belief-system out there ! And why ? Because we human beings interpret different things differently - We always have & we always will ! Islam is no different in this case that it follows the same principal - You would always have the 'Ayes' & the 'Nays' who'd flourish or flounder depending upon educational levels, exposure & political & social dispositions of The People !
(d) And so the question arises - Where do we draw the line ? Where does unhindered & unabashed, even offensive, preaching (religious or otherwise) stops & hate speech begins ? If such elements have made inroads into the Society then how do we remedy it ? Do we go in & initiate a hard crackdown or do we adopt a different approach ?
I think the solution to our current predicament lies in trying to answer & implement the answers of the above questions !
On my part I'd much rather a Pluralistic, though not Secular, Pakistan with Religious Impartiality, as determined by the People of Pakistan ! Let every opinion be entertained because even in terms of Muslims we've got so many sects & sects within these sects, we've got devout Muslims who are Islamists, in terms of polity, to avowedly Secular & we've got millions of those moderate Muslims who'd probably want a compromise between the two extremes. Therefore let every opinion be entertained & then let 'the vote' be the touch stone to determine what happens or not.
In the meantime to deal with this situation I'd advocate a multi-pronged approach :
(i) Shaping Public Narrative to impress upon them the righteousness of our cause !
(ii) Targeted Operations against those elements who cannot disagree without resorting to violence !
(iii) Rehabilitation of the aggrieved parties !
(iv) A coherently thought out & well-worked strategy in place to account for the possibility of the repeat of the above !
But for all of the above any Government which has lost the credibility of the people through gross mis-governance or is even perceived as attempting to separate Islam & the State of Pakistan as two separate entities as opposed to the latter being an extension of the former, would never be able to bring the people on board & combat this menace !
Waisee on a side note whatever happened above was solely due to a lack of Governance than some intrinsic contradiction in the ideology of the State; had the arsonists from previous years whose targets were everything from the religious to the secular, been kicked some fear of God in them by being hanged by the traffic lights on the Streets of Lahore for their heinous crimes this would never have happened ! Similarly if these arsonists are punished most severely by the Supreme Court, after the Suo Moto, & those charged with Law & Order severely reprimanded - This wouldn't happen for a while ! If not...this would continue happening.
@Hyperion @Talon @Secur @Marshmallow @HRK @LoveIcon
I disagree with the following :
Now let us call the opposition by its name- Wahhabism- its preaching and its content can be interpreted to violate Article 5 of the constitution, which unequivocally demands loyalty and obedience to Pakistan’s state and constitution. The problem with applying Article 5 properly lies in the fact that Pakistan's government and legislative setup is not absent religion itself- as long as the constitution cannot be distanced from religion all such ideologies will simply continue to function under the pretext of advocating Islam. If the constitution is to be treated as an extension of Islamic law and teachings then it is difficult to delineate loyalty to the nation (constitution) from loyalty to religion. As long as such a loophole exists it will be difficult to reclaim the loyalty of the citizens.
Without effective implementation of the above the populace will grow belligerent towards the very authorities that are meant to protect them- rendering operations in populated areas extremely difficult. If the populace on the ground does not support you then you will bleed all the more as you try to dominate the ground.
If I were to break down 'why I disagree' in a few broad categories it would be as follows :
(a) One must try to understand the very nature of Pakistan as the vast majority of Pakistanis perceive it to be; for us Pakistan & Islam is interchangeable to the extent that any attempt to take Islam out of Pakistan would invite a terrible backlash from whole swaths of the population & will ultimately result in terrible bloodshed ! Therefore even if one were to have an opposing view-point any attempt to delineate Islam from Pakistan or Pakistan's Constitution would not only be political suicide for any Political Party but would most certainly lead to country wide Protests on a colossal scale at best & secession of whole parts of the country at the very worst. So even if just for expediency's sake we must recognize this as a Big No-Go for the next many...many decades.
(b) To understand why is the 'above' so one must try to understand the conceptualization of Islamic Polity as understood by most Pakistanis who advocate such a position; for many of us the conceptualization of any State where Muslims find themselves in a position of Governance requires certain societal, legal, economic & political paradigms or frameworks to adhere to. Therefore for many of us a State exists always in the ideological and not in the historical, cultural, ethnic, linguistic or even geographic realm; those are parts of our identities...yes & they must be cherished but we are also very much conscious of our overarching identity as Muslims & all the paradigms, the injunctions, standards & frameworks that come with it !
(c) The problem with applying Article 5 properly lies in the fact that Pakistan's government and legislative setup is not absent religion itself- as long as the constitution cannot be distanced from religion all such ideologies will simply continue to function under the pretext of advocating Islam.
Every Ideology whether religious or secular would continue to function irrespective of whether it is excluded or included in the constitution or even the dominant culture/narrative of the land for that is the very nature of 'belief'; even in Secular countries you've got Islamist, even Socialist countries you've got Capitalists & so on & so forth for every single socio-political-economic or legal belief-system out there ! And why ? Because we human beings interpret different things differently - We always have & we always will ! Islam is no different in this case that it follows the same principal - You would always have the 'Ayes' & the 'Nays' who'd flourish or flounder depending upon educational levels, exposure & political & social dispositions of The People !
(d) And so the question arises - Where do we draw the line ? Where does unhindered & unabashed, even offensive, preaching (religious or otherwise) stops & hate speech begins ? If such elements have made inroads into the Society then how do we remedy it ? Do we go in & initiate a hard crackdown or do we adopt a different approach ?
I think the solution to our current predicament lies in trying to answer & implement the answers of the above questions !
On my part I'd much rather a Pluralistic, though not Secular, Pakistan with Religious Impartiality, as determined by the People of Pakistan ! Let every opinion be entertained because even in terms of Muslims we've got so many sects & sects within these sects, we've got devout Muslims who are Islamists, in terms of polity, to avowedly Secular & we've got millions of those moderate Muslims who'd probably want a compromise between the two extremes. Therefore let every opinion be entertained & then let 'the vote' be the touch stone to determine what happens or not.
In the meantime to deal with this situation I'd advocate a multi-pronged approach :
(i) Shaping Public Narrative to impress upon them the righteousness of our cause !
(ii) Targeted Operations against those elements who cannot disagree without resorting to violence !
(iii) Rehabilitation of the aggrieved parties !
(iv) A coherently thought out & well-worked strategy in place to account for the possibility of the repeat of the above !
But for all of the above any Government which has lost the credibility of the people through gross mis-governance or is even perceived as attempting to separate Islam & the State of Pakistan as two separate entities as opposed to the latter being an extension of the former, would never be able to bring the people on board & combat this menace !
Waisee on a side note whatever happened above was solely due to a lack of Governance than some intrinsic contradiction in the ideology of the State; had the arsonists from previous years whose targets were everything from the religious to the secular, been kicked some fear of God in them by being hanged by the traffic lights on the Streets of Lahore for their heinous crimes this would never have happened ! Similarly if these arsonists are punished most severely by the Supreme Court, after the Suo Moto, & those charged with Law & Order severely reprimanded - This wouldn't happen for a while ! If not...this would continue happening.
@Hyperion @Talon @Secur @Marshmallow @HRK @LoveIcon
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