'Allah' for Muslims only: Malaysia's top court

[A.P. Richelieu]

Some people showing clear lack of info on diversity of Christian theology, not all Christians pray to the God that Jews and Muslims worship. Some pray to Jesus himself especially Catholics who form the largest block of Christians. For them God is one in three persons namely the father, the son, and the holy ghost. This is accepted by both Jewish and Muslim scholars as putting them at odds with our concept of God and some scholars even call it borderline polytheistic paganism.

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Christians and the other two religions,
except it is not three PERSONS. It is one beeing with multiple appearances.
One appearance is the "Father" which is the same as Allah/Jahve.

Saints are a Catholic thing, but according to the Catholic Church, Divine Worship is properly reserved only for God (latria) and never to the saints. If you pray to Saints, you are not Catholic.

 

[KingMamba]

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Christians and the other two religions,
except it is not three PERSONS. It is one beeing with multiple appearances.
One appearance is the "Father" which is the same as Allah/Jahve.

Saints are a Catholic thing, but according to the Catholic Church, Divine Worship is properly reserved only for God (latria) and never to the saints. If you pray to Saints, you are not Catholic.

Many Hispanic Catholics pray to saints yet they are considered Catholic, most South American countries have their own patron saints.

I wasn't arguing that at all. I'm looking at the technical uses of the word, that's where the objection is from, any other objection means interventionist objection of other people's belief.

The point is they can use Allah word that should be no issue but they should not dishonest and say there is no big deal because we worship the same God when in most instances we do not.

 

[Dubious]

Malaysia is a country, not a religion. You are born into the country, not something you choose.
You are implying that if You live in Malaysia and are not a Muslim you are disloyal?
That is bigottery.

Now either you have problems comprehending what I wrote or are just jumping the gun to get another angry..

The Catholic Church does not have a say how Mosques should be run, so your comparision is flawed.

They also didnt say how a church should be run but when you are a missionary you do require to show what you are going to preach...if it is good or bad is the decision for the govt.

Like Eu laws are backed with Christian morals Malaysian law is backed with Islamic morals...If we you are going to ignite and harm the sentiments of a group by what we call deceitful means by mixing 1 word of Arabic into a 100% Malay bible....how is that even right? Its like putting in the word La sharika into the bible meaning no other god except ALLAH into the bible and then crying the victim card that you did nothing wrong but just introduced an Arabic monotheistic view!

If people do not understand that Tuhan and Allah are the same,
it is a good idea to use Allah, if that makes the message sink in.

Its like I am talking to you in English and suddenly I switch to Arabic....Is it a good idea for me to continue in Arabic/ Malay/ Urdu anything but English? or maybe if I speak in English and use 1 word in Arabic/ Urdu/ Malay per sentence or per topic...

I wasn't arguing that at all. I'm looking at the technical uses of the word, that's where the objection is from, any other objection means interventionist objection of other people's belief.

Bibles with TUHAN written when refering to god are freely available in Malaysia! But bibles where you play with words where only ALLAH is taken from Arabic despite knowing ...coz this case is not new it is 3-4 yrs old! Plus even the Bishop offered apology for the doings of his missionaries...and if it is inciting hate instead of allowing peaceful living then why oh why are you after the security of the country?

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Christians and the other two religions,
except it is not three PERSONS. It is one beeing with multiple appearances.
One appearance is the "Father" which is the same as Allah/Jahve.

This part Muslims have no problem....

It is Jesus...I have mentioned this in 4 posts before! carry on with the denial!

Saints are a Catholic thing, but according to the Catholic Church, Divine Worship is properly reserved only for God (latria) and never to the saints. If you pray to Saints, you are not Catholic.

Yes although there is no saint worship in the bible itself

Many Hispanic Catholics pray to saints yet they are considered Catholic, most South American countries have their own patron saints.
.

Same case for Italy, Spain and Portugal....in Italy each town has a patron saint...Havent seen whole of Spain and only heard of it in Portugal so cant comment much there

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

So you can see why Muslim and Jewish cleric both raise eyebrows towards Christians. Basically they make a demigod out of Jesus PBUH.

Some do, You have to see Jesus as separated from God, to make him a demi-god, which I don't.
The 10 commandments clearly says there is only one god, and I subscribe to those,
more than I subscribe to Christianity.

 

[takeiteasy]

Saints are a Catholic thing,

Orthodox Christians also revere saints. may be, Anglicans also. well, Eastern Christianity is way different than western style protestant-Catholicism which world now know as "authentic Christianity".
Eastern Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrani

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Many Hispanic Catholics pray to saints yet they are considered Catholic, most South American countries have their own patron saints.
The point is they can use Allah word that should be no issue but they should not dishonest and say there is no big deal because we worship the same God when in most instances we do not.

Then the question is if praying to a saint equates worshipping. Never even considered praying to a saint.
A saint is not God, and the Catholic Churc is clear on this.

Christians certainly believe that they are worshipping the same god as Jews and Muslims,
so there is no dishonesty involved.

 

[KingMamba]

Some do, You have to see Jesus as separated from God, to make him a demi-god, which I don't.
The 10 commandments clearly says there is only one god, and I subscribe to those,
more than I subscribe to Christianity.

That is where we differ. You say God is the father and God is his own son because Jesus and God are whole and not separate. Jews and Muslims find this both illogical and blasphemous. It is like putting one child into three separate strollers. Can you ever find a way where that would work?

Then the question is if praying to a saint equates worshipping. Never even considered praying to a saint.
A saint is not God, and the Catholic Churc is clear on this.

Christians certainly believe that they are worshipping the same god as Jews and Muslims,
so there is no dishonesty involved.

You see now that is indeed dishonest when you just admitted you do not see Jesus as separate from God. Then you can see why Jews and Muslims who after hearing that would disagree.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Now either you have problems comprehending what I wrote or are just jumping the gun to get another angry..
They also didnt say how a church should be run but when you are a missionary you do require to show what you are going to preach...if it is good or bad is the decision for the govt.

Like Eu laws are backed with Christian morals Malaysian law is backed with Islamic morals...If we you are going to ignite and harm the sentiments of a group by what we call deceitful means by mixing 1 word of Arabic into a 100% Malay bible....how is that even right? Its like putting in the word La sharika into the bible meaning no other god except ALLAH into the bible and then crying the victim card that you did nothing wrong but just introduced an Arabic monotheistic view!
Its like I am talking to you in English and suddenly I switch to Arabic....Is it a good idea for me to continue in Arabic/ Malay/ Urdu anything but English? or maybe if I speak in English and use 1 word in Arabic/ Urdu/ Malay per sentence or per topic...

Christians believe that there is one god, and it is the same as the god Muslims refer to as Allah,
and that Jesus is the son of that god. As such Jesus is not a separate beeing from God.
Using Allah clarifies the view that it is the same god as in Islam. Have said it multiple times.

You may disagree that it is the same god, but that is your religion, not the Christian religion.
Not allowing other people to believe is causing hatred in itself.

If you want to explain a concept to me, and the concept normally is described using an Arabic word,
I don't have a problem with you switching.
Languages are borrowing from each other all the time.

That is where we differ. You say God is the father and God is his own son because Jesus and God are whole and not separate. Jews and Muslims find this both illogical and blasphemous. It is like putting one child into three separate strollers. Can you ever find a way where that would work?

You see now that is indeed dishonest when you just admitted you do not see Jesus as separate from God. Then you can see why Jews and Muslims who after hearing that would disagree.

Christians find the denial of the holy trinity as blasphemous.
Religions differ... what else is new?

You assume that deity and humans work the same way. That is not neccessarily the case.

Again, Christians believe they have seen a side of God (Allah), which the Jews and Muslims
has not seen, but it is still the same God, so Christians are not dishonest according to their
own beliefs.

 

[KingMamba]

Christians believe that there is one god, and it is the same as the god Muslims refer to as Allah,
and that Jesus is the son of that god. As such Jesus is not a separate beeing from God.
Using Allah clarifies the view that it is the same god as in Islam. Have said it multiple times.

You may disagree that it is the same god, but that is your religion, not the Christian religion.
Not allowing other people to believe is causing hatred in itself.

If you want to explain a concept to me, and the concept normally is described using an Arabic word,
I don't have a problem with you switching.
Languages are borrowing from each other all the time.



Christians find the denial of the holy trinity as blasphemous.
Religions differ... what else is new?

You assume that deity and humans work the same way. That is not neccessarily the case.

Again, Christians believe they have seen a side of God (Allah), which the Jews and Muslims
has not seen, but it is still the same God, so Christians are not dishonest according to their
own beliefs.

Okay I can accept that and have said this ruling was wrong so let us leave it to that.

 

[Dubious]

Christians believe that there is one god, and it is the same as the god Muslims refer to as Allah,

That part is all good...

and that Jesus is the son of that god.

That part is against Islam, Quran and Muslims

As such Jesus is not a separate beeing from God.

That part is confusing even for many Christians not 1 has been able to explain to me...

Using Allah clarifies the view that it is the same god as in Islam.

Yet goes against the verses I quoted hence the deceitful nature of this treachery!

Have said it multiple times.
You may disagree that it is the same god, but that is your religion, not the Christian religion.
Not allowing other people to believe is causing hatred in itself.

I never said it is not the same god...I always only talked about the son...do you have issues comprehending that bit? Or just plain confusion?

If you want to explain a concept to me, and the concept normally is described using an Arabic word,
I don't have a problem with you switching.
Languages are borrowing from each other all the time.

If you have a scripture in 1 language....then change just 1 word to cause chaos...What does that mean?

Why change 1 word? Why not change Jesus to Isa also if you are soo sure its about bridging and not destroying?!

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:13
for people who are wicked and deceitful have opened their mouths against me; they have spoken against me with lying tongues -Psalm 109:2
They will do no wrong; they will tell no lies. A deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid." - Zephaniah 3:13
Romans 16:18 ESV / 68 helpful votes
For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Psalm 36:3 ESV / 72 helpful votes
The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit; he has ceased to act wisely and do good
Psalm 10:7 ESV / 45 helpful votes
His mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression; under his tongue are mischief and iniquity.

Even bible warns against mischief and deceit!

Christians find the denial of the holy trinity as blasphemous.
Religions differ... what else is new?

And yet they want Jesus to be son of ALLAH and be accepted?

You assume that deity and humans work the same way. That is not neccessarily the case.

Again, Christians believe they have seen a side of God (Allah), which the Jews and Muslims
has not seen, but it is still the same God, so Christians are not dishonest according to their
own beliefs.

And Malaysia is not dishonest to stop such bibles....

Then the question is if praying to a saint equates worshipping. Never even considered praying to a saint.
A saint is not God, and the Catholic Churc is clear on this.

Christians certainly believe that they are worshipping the same god as Jews and Muslims,
so there is no dishonesty involved.

That is good and they can call him Tuaan the god in the language..... the language the whole bible is in?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

That part is all good...
That part is against Islam, Quran and Muslims

Yet goes against the verses I quoted hence the deceitful nature of this treachery

Why change 1 word?

Quran is not universially accepted as truth, so Christians do not need to know about, nor act according to the Quran.
Treachery, implies that you subscribe to or pretend to subscribe to anything the Quran says from start.
This is not the case.

Which words Christians use to describe their God is entirely up to them.
Why continue asking questions which has been answered multiple times?
Go back and read.

 

[PakPrinciples]

Yes. Its sure bigotry on our fellow Malaysian Muslims part.

The word Allah is made up of 'Al-illah' which means 'The Creator'. Allah is not a 'Name'.

The genesis of the word Allah can be traced back to the time of Prophet Moses PBUH.

i just cant believe that ..... LOLZ


dont we believe in the same god ? what the difference between using "allah" or "lord" or "God" ?


jesus

Malaysias top court is wrong here. Everyone is allowed to use the word Allah, God is for everyone.

When it comes to Malaysia, Pakistan or any Muslim country "Allah" is defined only by a very specific set of facts written in the Quran such as:

1. Allah begets not nor was he begotten (Surah 112:3)
   
   
2. Prayer is to Allah alone (Surah 72:18, 3:64)
   
   
3. Allah has no partners and the trinity is a lie (Surah 17:111, 3:64, 4:171)
   
   
4. Hazrat Isa (aka Jesus) pbuh is a prophet not the son of god (Surah 5:17)
   

Many of the practices of the Christian Church and attributes given to the deity (or rather deities) described in the Bibles, which even contradict themselves on this subject, are in opposition to "Allah" as described in the Quran.

So why would we allow them to use “Allah”?

This isn't meant to be "mean" it simply set the facts straight and ensures that everyone understands the differences between us.

I personally have no idea what Reza is even talking about.

"Allah" is basically how الله is pronounced in Arabic and written for those English speakers who cannot read Arabic.

You can even hear 6 different native Arabic speakers pronouncing الله to confirm the pronunciation if you aren't able to read it:

www.forvo.com/word/الله/#ar

The word is made up of the individual characters Alif (ا), lam (ل), lam (ل) with a shaddah and superscript alif written over it and finally a ha (ه). As written you read it Al-lah not "al-illah" like Reza seems to be insinuating. So it's obvious Islam specifically uses the title “Allah”.

Now in the books of Ezra and Daniels there is a word for the creator which is similar to “Allah” written in Hebrew as אֱלָהּ ('elahh). However, even then you can object since Christians basically don't believe the Old Testament was for them (this itself is a sham according to Matthew 5:17-18 but I'm not going to get into that right now) instead it's the New Testament which was meant for Christians and itself uses mostly alternate titles like “Theos”, “Kyrios”, “Immanuel”, “Shaddai”, “Jehova”, etc... for “God”.

So again, why should they be allowed to use “Allah”?

What I'm also curious about is why they didn't go with “'elahh” which is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אֱלָהּ (derived from Aramaic the language Hazrat Isa pbuh would have spoken) to refer to “God” and even appears in the Old Testament?

This was an obvious attempt at fraud and the Malaysian courts made the right decision by not allowing these Christian missionaries and whoever supports them in Malaysia to get away with it.

Wrong. Allah is for everyone.

You're correct in that Allah is your one and only lord and creator.


All you need to do now is accept the prophets (pbuta), recognize Hazzrat Mohammed S.A.W (pbuh) is the last of all prophets, there are no gods but Allah and he is neither begotten nor begets.

 

[Dubious]

Quran is not universially accepted as truth, so Christians do not need to know about, nor act according to the Quran.
Treachery, implies that you subscribe to or pretend to subscribe to anything the Quran says from start.
This is not the case.

Well Mind you EU laws take Christian morals...so its only fair Muslims take Quranic morals....However even the bible says dont use deception methods

Which words Christians use to describe their God is entirely up to them.
Why continue asking questions which has been answered multiple times?
Go back and read.

You should go back and read and explain to me why use only 1 Arabic word in a whole bible which is in Malay? What was the purpose? Coz Malay does have a word for God and it is TUHAN! Had Malay language no word for the term God they could have used ALLAH, yehowa, Jevoha, YHVH, Yahweh, I am or whatever

You do realize you have been avoiding this question and going in circles! Their country their rules...Why want to bend them and expect to be sympathized?

The day you can come up with a reason why use 1 Arabic word in a bible 100% in Malay except for the Arabic word ALLAH....that day you may question this court's ruling and maybe even that day you can actually see the deception used for no matter how much you try to hide that is what it is...

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

When it comes to Malaysia, Pakistan or any Muslim country "Allah" is defined only by a very specific set of facts written in the Quran such as:

1. Allah begets not nor was he begotten (Surah 112:3)
   
   
2. Prayer is to Allah alone (Surah 72:18, 3:64)
   
   
3. Allah has no partners and the trinity is a lie (Surah 17:111, 3:64, 4:171)
   
   
4. Hazrat Isa (aka Jesus) pbuh is a prophet not the son of god (Surah 5:17)

Many of the practices of the Christian Church and attributes given to the deity (or rather deities) described in the Bibles, which even contradict themselves on this subject, are in opposition to "Allah" as described in the Quran.

So why would we allow them to use “Allah”?

This isn't meant to be "mean" it simply set the facts straight and ensures that everyone understands the differences between us.

I personally have no idea what Reza is even talking about.

"Allah" is basically how الله is pronounced in Arabic and written for those English speakers who cannot read Arabic.

You can even hear 6 different native Arabic speakers pronouncing الله to confirm the pronunciation if you aren't able to read it:

www.forvo.com/word/الله/#ar

The word is made up of the individual characters Alif (ا), lam (ل), lam (ل) with a shaddah and superscript alif written over it and finally a ha (ه). As written you read it Al-lah not "al-illah" like Reza seems to be insinuating. So it's obvious Islam specifically uses the title “Allah”.

Now in the books of Ezra and Daniels there is a word for the creator which is similar to “Allah” written in Hebrew as אֱלָהּ ('elahh). However, even then you can object since Christians basically don't believe the Old Testament was for them (this itself is a sham according to Matthew 5:17-18 but I'm not going to get into that right now) instead it's the New Testament which was meant for Christians and itself uses mostly alternate titles like “Theos”, “Kyrios”, “Immanuel”, “Shaddai”, “Jehova”, etc... for “God”.

So again, why should they be allowed to use “Allah”?

What I'm also curious about is why they didn't go with “'elahh” which is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אֱלָהּ (derived from Aramaic the language Hazrat Isa pbuh would have spoken) to refer to “God” and even appears in the Old Testament?

This was an obvious attempt at fraud and the Malaysian courts made the right decision by not allowing these Christian missionaries and whoever supports them in Malaysia to get away with it.




You're correct in that Allah is your one and only lord and creator.


All you need to do now is accept the prophets (pbuta), recognize Hazzrat Mohammed S.A.W (pbuh) is the last of all prophets, there are no gods but Allah and he is neither begotten nor begets.

If you do agree that the Christian God and the Islamic God are the same, then there should be no problem
using "Allah" for any Christian.
If you believe that they are not the same, then using "Allah" by Muslims living in (nominally) Christian
countries should be banned because the Christians refer to their God as "the Creator", and "Allah" is
just a translation into Arab of that word.
"The Creator" should be reserved for the Christian God, and not be allowed to be used in any language by Muslims.

Hope you see how ridiculous this is.

You are using Islamic religious theory to govern how Christians should behave.
Just agree, that Malaysia is repressive towards non-Muslims, then we are done.

Well Mind you EU laws take Christian morals...so its only fair Muslims take Quranic morals....However even the bible says dont use deception methods
You should go back and read and explain to me why use only 1 Arabic word in a whole bible which is in Malay? What was the purpose? Coz Malay does have a word for God and it is TUHAN! Had Malay language no word for the term God they could have used ALLAH, yehowa, Jevoha, YHVH, Yahweh, I am or whatever

You do realize you have been avoiding this question and going in circles! Their country their rules...Why want to bend them and expect to be sympathized?

The day you can come up with a reason why use 1 Arabic word in a bible 100% in Malay except for the Arabic word ALLAH....that day you may question this court's ruling and maybe even that day you can actually see the deception used for no matter how much you try to hide that is what it is...

I'll do better than that, I'll press the ignore button on your username...

 

[Dubious]

If you do agree that the Christian God and the Islamic God are the same, then there should be no problem
using "Allah" for any Christian.
If you believe that they are not the same, then using "Allah" by Muslims living in (nominally) Christian
countries should be banned because the Christians refer to their God as "the Creator", and "Allah" is
just a translation into Arab of that word.
"The Creator" should be reserved for the Christian God, and not be allowed to be used in any language by Muslims.

Hope you see how ridiculous this is.

You are using Islamic religious theory to govern how Christians should behave.
Just agree, that Malaysia is repressive towards non-Muslims, then we are done.


I'll do better than that, I'll press the ignore button on your username...

hahahah yea carry on in your denial

We have no problem with ALLAH god but not Jesus....as long as you remove that son of god all is same...the creator is fine but not he created!

How Christian should preach in a Muslim country...and not change 1 word to lie!

Or should I say not deceive

Good to know that living in denial is way better than understanding something!