All Parties Conference

[GOD OF WAR]

As it should have been edited, this was not the PTI Imran khan hour - Drones are a political problem in pakistan because the Pakistani establishment is apologetic about killing islamist terrorists -- That's why we say that some do not understand "WHY" islamist terror must be confronted and defeated by all means necessary - the Pakistan army and the state agree with the use of drones, in fact they want to be able to control it's use, they want drones for themselves.

How have you reached to this conclusion? did Pasha and/or Kiyani come to your house for a tete a tete?!? Please dont make assumptions that can't be corroborated.

 

[Jango]

Boo ho - He could not resist that dig.

Yes, come clean, why be apologetic about killing Islamist enemies? Come clean, explain to people why these people are enemies, explain that anyone taking arms against the state, regardless of how they justify it, are putting their lives at risk - Explain that the use of religion to justify insurrection, terrorism will lead to the destruction of the state and society and the state will not only not allow it but will destroy those who seek such an objective

Did i say that we need to be aplogoetic about killing about killing some sc*mbags?

Trust me, i want them dead as anybody else. But when another country comes in YOUR airspace and does a strike, it does not feel good.

So, what i wanted to get across is that, we should come out clean that are we having a hand in them or not. And after that, the fallout will be great for about a week, but then things will calm down and the media will have another topi drama to talk about.

 

[muse]

How have you reached to this conclusion? did Pasha and/or Kiyani come to your house for a tete a tete?!? Please dont make assumptions that can't be corroborated.

Do a little research -try not be get personal.

 

[GOD OF WAR]

Do a little research -try not be get personal.

Then please provide me with some adequate links that cements your statements. The Pakistan Military has time and again asked the incumbent government to 'order them' to shoot down drones. But the government has done nothing but to evade the issue. When DG ISI asked the parliament to accept his resignation, if they thought appropriate, why did they not do it? the govt is aware that if a go ahead is given to the forces to down the drones, and if Pasha's resignation was to be accepted, this whole farce would have come loose, the brunt of which would have been on the politicians.

I won't get personal if you promise to not make sweeping statements. I don't mean any animosity, if that s how you deemed my last post. Awaiting a few links from you sir.

 

[muse]

You get to do your own research - and since personal is the way you want to go - OK, I will give you reason to regret not taking the high road

 

[GOD OF WAR]

You get to do your own research - and since personal is the way you want to go - OK, I will give you reason to regret not taking the high road

I clarifying my stance to you that i don't mean to have a cyber-war with you, I ask you earnestly for some good hard links for my to conduct my own research, I gave you my PoV, rebuke that if you may, but you're preparing some kind of a retribution? taking about being condescending.

Again. PLEASE HELP ME DO SOME RESEARCH SO THAT I CAN LOOK AT THE WORLD WITH YOUR LENSE. If I agree with you I will do so openly, beleive me I have that much moral fibre in me. But if I don't agree with you then either you're either not making a strong enough point or, simply incorrect in assuming your current posture about the Pakistan Armed Forces. Don't judge my vehemence in a wrong manner, Im a scholar who wants to learn from the big boys

 

[muse]

http://www.brecorder.com/pdf/Drones.pdf

Perhaps you can begin here and are you sure you have no problems with the proposition that Pakistan have asked for reaper type drones from the US? Now, is that because they are opposed to drone operations? Or is it a reflection of seeking to mitigate the political fallout, the apologetic stance we spoke of?

 

[Leader]

 

[Awesome]

As it should have been edited, this was not the PTI Imran khan hour - Drones are a political problem in pakistan because the Pakistani establishment is apologetic about killing islamist terrorists -- That's why we say that some do not understand "WHY" islamist terror must be confronted and defeated by all means necessary - the Pakistan army and the state agree with the use of drones, in fact they want to be able to control it's use, they want drones for themselves.

You fail to understand the spirit in which PTI calls against the drones. It is in fact that we don't control it, the fact that we say we are not for it that it must be opposed.

PA has parliamentary sanction to go in and fight in these areas to uproot terrorist. The US does not.

It is the entire psyche of subservience to the United States that plagues the nation's leaders. We are not opposing the illegal drone attacks for the sake of promoting terrorism. We're opposing it since it does not have the nation's buy in and it never will. Each and every kill, be it the spawn of the devil, will be termed as an illegal kill and will sprout renewed commitment to take up terrorism as a means to wade off illegal attacks.

If drones were used by the PA, the story would be different. If Kayani decides to kill 10 children to kill Hakimullah Mehsud, I can go and question Kayani if hes got maggots ******* away his brain... If Mullen (or now Dempsey) decides that, I can't do anything but watch him crack open a bottle of champagne celebrating the death of that one guy trying to forget that he killed 10 children along the way.

Listen, its basic. You have an enemy Taliban. You have an enemy America. The entire Pakistan would first fight America and ignore the Taliban. Remove America from the equation and we'll continue to fight the Taliban.

 

[Awesome]

Boo ho - He could not resist that dig.

Yes, come clean, why be apologetic about killing Islamist enemies? Come clean, explain to people why these people are enemies, explain that anyone taking arms against the state, regardless of how they justify it, are putting their lives at risk - Explain that the use of religion to justify insurrection, terrorism will lead to the destruction of the state and society and the state will not only not allow it but will destroy those who seek such an objective

You need to first establish who is a terrorist and who is not in a court of law or through parliamentary debate and sanction.

India has huffed and puffed and said we gave a dossier and there is evidence against Hafiz Saeed. I have challenged Indians time and again, you have evidence, okay show me.

There is none. But wait, we know it in our guts hes a bad guy, so lets just kill him?

The radicals know in their guts we are bad guys, so they can kill us too?

Lets all grab an AK-47, start shooting and the last man standing can say I was the good guy.

Due process. Somewhere on The Hill, the most idiotic leader of America decided it was okay to pass the Patriot Act and jail, kill people without a trial and we have all gone along with it as if its the correct SOP to follow. Hell no. We can't hope for peace by constantly asking for war. We need to give civilization and all its processes and ideals a chance.

 

[Awesome]

I repeat, the message APC should have given was that we will attack Bagram and Kandahar bases if drone attacks continue.

APC has failed to deliver - the slaughter of Pakistan continues at American hands. Kayani should resign.

 

[GOD OF WAR]

http://www.brecorder.com/pdf/Drones.pdf

Perhaps you can begin here and are you sure you have no problems with the proposition that Pakistan have asked for reaper type drones from the US? Now, is that because they are opposed to drone operations? Or is it a reflection of seeking to mitigate the political fallout, the apologetic stance we spoke of?

I went through the report and here are my observations.


Page 2, last para: The reference to Pakistani agents being on board and playing a role on target selection and assist on providing ground/humint. Of course, the ISI is sharing intel with the US. Point is, the US must stop acting without joint approval of Pakistan. Problem arises when US kills ‘X’ without Pakistani consent, not when US kill ‘Y’ with Pakistani consent. Pakistan seeking drones is tantamount to Pakistan seeking Augusta 9, J10, or F-16. Its another tool of war. Does Pakistan Air Force lets US pilots fly our jets? Similarly, WE need to operate drones IF these drones will operate in Pakistan Air Space, not the US.

Page3, para 1: CIA has to decide whether it is a rouge assassin or intel agency. It cannot play judge jury and executioner in today’s world. The writer insinuates that since it is easy to just kill these terrorists rather then bring them to trial, is the defeat of morality. Who is the CIA to decide upon someones life or death? One day the CIA will decide that YOU are a terrorist and send a drone to your office or home, how dandy will that sit with you? These operations are making the role of ICJ and UN and International community redundant. I thought the CIA gave up its policy of assassination in the 60s-70s. Then what is this?

Page3, para 14: Obama justified using hellfire missiles to kill OBL and other terrorists even at the expense of human civilians. Then I suppose by the same standards, these terrorists are also justified of doing what they do keeping in mind 60 years of rape, pillage and subversive tactics all across the Muslim world. In essence, the US started it first. OBL ‘supposidly’ killed 3000 in 9/11, and drones have killed 35000 civilians in Pakistan. Its atrocious, if law of the jungle is it, then sometimes the deers also end up killing the cheetahs. So be it!

Page5, para 1: Us claims that only 50 or so civilians have been killed and those too were the family of the prime target. Two points here.
i) So under the same paradigm, if Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Iraq decides to bomb the families of the US troops it would be ok for the US?
ii) Pakistan claims the conservative numbers are 3500. Who is US to deny these figures? The numbers put forward by US beats the intellect of a layman, leave alone people like us who are students of war and know what kind of destruction a certain weapon platform is capable of delivering. Whatever happened to the US being the champion of democracy and bastian against oppression? Nonsensical!

Page6, para 1: verbatim from the report: “Mary Ellen O’Connell of the University of Notre Dame Law School said:“We just don’t have the right to bomb people where there’s no armed conflict,” drawing a contrast between Pakistan and Afghanistan, where U.S. forces are waging a nearly nine-year-old war”

Even if militants use Pakistan as a staging ground for Afghan attacks, O’Connell said the sovereign boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan must be respected. “The United States is not fighting in self-defense against Pakistan.
We do not hold Pakistan responsible for cross-border incursions into Afghanistan and may not, lawfully, use military force in Pakistan in response to those incursions,” she said.

Page 6, 5th last para: When the Us states that they could have captured some terrorist but DECIDED to kill him, is a blatant disregard of their own policy, and those of the UNSC. That’s whats called taking the law in your own hands.

Page 7, para 5: verbatim from the report: verbatim from the report: An American diplomat tells a story about a meeting he had with Pakistani parliamentarians that offers a window into the tough position that nation is in when it comes to the drone attacks. The message from each lawmaker seemed straightforward: CIA drone strikes against militants in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan cause terrible damage and must stop. Then, in the middle of the session, according to an account provided to Reuters, one of the parliamentarians slipped the American guest, who specializes in the region, a handwritten note: “The people in the tribal areas support the drones. They cause very little collateral damage. But we cannot say so publicly for reasons you understand.”

I’m 100% positive the swine who slipped the note never had his family member killed and didn’t even belon to the FATA region. And his notion of the residents of FATA liking the drone attacks originates from deep under the body part where the sun don’t shine. Anacdotal evidence that the politicians are the ones who hacve sold their souls to the devils, not the army!. Plus this also supports my earlier post where I asked why the parliament did not order the army to shoot down the drones, this is prsicely the reason why!

Page 7, para 6: verbatim from the report: “A former U.S. intelligence official said the CIA was conducting the drone strikes instead of the U.S. military because the covert nature of the program gives Islamabad the “fig leaf of deniability.”

Again, this goes on t demonstrate that the politicians are working hand in glove with the CIA/US. Moreover, the Army asking the parliament to order the shoot down of the drones and not getting permission establishes the fact who the culprit is and who isn’t.

Page 8, para 1: verbatim from the report: “You need guys on the ground to tell you who they (the targets) are andthat isn’t coming from some white guy running around the FATA . That’scoming from the Pakistanis,” a U.S. official said, referring to the semiautonomous Federally Administered Tribal Areas along the Afghan border.

This doesn’t prove anything other than the fact that the CIA has ‘some’ paid agents. Mir jaffers and Mir Sadiqs have always been present in the colums. So what? Secondly I have personally talked to and witnessed atleast 2 such Americans around 5-6 years back who could be mistaken for Pushtuns from their get up to their immaculate command over Pashtu and Darri. They admitted that they were ex marines, one of them being a recon! I hold Allah my witness, if you can believe it, good for you. I know that my claim cannot be substanciated, but Im only quoting it here because eit still holds relevance. Who were they and what were they doing here?

Page 8, para 6: This is a proud military and many hate the drone program because it is a constant reminder that they’re not in control,” a former U.S.intelligence official said.

That’s the bottom line! And that’s why we want to have the drone technology so that we can take care of business without US hanky panky.

Page 8, para 7: “The target selection process is a secret”. Contradiction to your statements about claims that Pakistan military is party to the drone program.

Page 8, 6th last para: Verbatim from the report: For some, however, it’s not the technology or intelligence as much as the strategy that is flawed. Addicott, the former legal adviser to Army Special Operations Forces, asks: “Are we creating more enemies than we’re killing or capturing by our activities? Unfortunately, I think the answer is yes. These families have 10 sons each. You kill one son and you create 9 more enemies. You’re not winning over the population.”

This is from the horse’s mouth .Need I say more?

Last Para, Last Page: Verbatim from report: Calling his two young daughters Sasha and Malia “huge fans” of the
Jonas Brothers band, Obama cautioned the young pop stars: “Boys, don’t
get any ideas. I have two words for you -- Predator drones,” the president
said to laughter.

Dear Omaba, as if you don’t know already, both your daughters had their cherries popped in junior high, it’s a bit late for warnings now


All in all these western reports are available dime a dozen, they selfishly justify their own actions and ignore Pakistani concerns. No wonder policy makers in the US are missing the boat! What about the destruction of Pakistn’s economy, image and the dissention in social fabric, all having davestating contributions towards Pakistan’s existing predicaments.

No where in the whole report did I see hard conclusive evidence that gives your initial statement any strength, No where in the report does it elucidate your stance that the Pakistan Army approves of drones and is OK with civilian casualties. Except for rumors and news from unknown sources that don't hold credence in the first place.

Bottom line, if the US is insensitive about its all Pakistan, then this allyship must be severed, and that where all this is headed!
When you don’t approve the Palestinian State and ensure overdue Kashmiri plebiscite, don’t go around teaching morality to the rest of the world. And don’t expect that you will live securely in your condominiums having your king size burgers and pint sized beers without fear of a terrorist attack waiting to happen.

Next Link Please.

 

[Jango]

I repeat, the message APC should have given was that we will attack Bagram and Kandahar bases if drone attacks continue.

APC has failed to deliver - the slaughter of Pakistan continues at American hands. Kayani should resign.

Not only Kayani, the whole charade!