Alcohol and freedom under secular liberalism

[third eye]

What a biased poll.

The OP himself has voted for option No 5.

This helps judge what the intention of the poll was.

 

[haviZsultan]

Do not compare muslims with your hindutvadi fanatics. Muslims don't slaughter pregnant women under the noses of chief ministers in broad day light and neither do they kill people for eating beef.

You are a typical liberal with a narrow world view based on flawed presumptions and a condescending attitude towards religion. You are making the mistake of conflating Islam with other religions. If you think that your neighbor salman who loiters in the bar and shares beer with you, is representative of 1.6 bn muslims , then you are in for a big surprise. RSS is your problem. DON'T project your country's extremism problem on the muslim world.



First learn about the religion you claim to profess. Ignorance is not an excuse for your diatribe in this day and age.

https://islamqa.info/en/20037

https://islamqa.info/en/11403

https://islamqa.info/en/96662

Yes Islam restricts freedom. Islam and liberalism are 2 different religion and way of life. DO you get that?

And no, none of our countries imposed Islam on others. Its preposterous that you keep on repeating such absurd lies. I think you keep Joseph Goebbels in high esteem.

You don't have to worry about islamic conversion. First gain basic knowledge about the religion you claim to profess without stressing yourself too much. Btw People are converting to Islam in mass throughout the globe. SO relax.

I interpret islamic text the way it was interpreted by the companions of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) , and the first generations and the scholars who followed them. I allow the Quran and Sunnah to speak for itself without trying to read in my biases and preconceived notions into them. I am a muslim NOT a liberal.



I am not saying that you should be forced NOT to drink . You are a non-muslim in a non-muslim land. This thread is about the secular liberal concept of freedom and what it promotes. Yes as a muslim I strongly desire for you to give up drinking because we are obliged to want good for others. There is also a very important islamic concept of promoting good and forbidding evil. Believe it or not , the west through the secular liberal world order , directly promotes their vices in the muslim world. Open dhaka tribune or express tribune and see for yourself what they promote here. Look at the statements of world leaders and their policies regarding the muslim world. Secularist in the muslim world force their beliefs on muslims. Pre-AKP turkey , central asian republics , pre-2011 tunisia are classic example of secular totalitarianism. Remember the hue and cry about brunei sharia law? One Australian reporter was dead worried about whether Bruneians would be allowed to drink alcohol , while the human rights groups were talking about "subjugation" of Bruneians under "medieval laws". US is linking human rights to TPP trade agreements. Its NOT muslims who force their beliefs on others but its non-muslims specially liberals who are the bigots.



Consuming alcohol is a major sin. A serious crime in Islam. But it doesn't make the consumer a non-muslim. Excommunication is NOT a play thing in Islam. Only scholars are allowed to excommunicate after a through interrogation and investigation. Its NOT the job of individual muslims. One of the major reasons why scholars around the globe unanimously condemn ISIS is because of their tendency to excommunicate muslims left and right. If you are interested: https://islamqa.info/en/85102

But yes if someone starts justifying alcohol consumption saying that islam allows it or openly starts rebuking Quran and sunnah because of his desires , then that person is out of the fold of islam. Note : I am talking in generality and not directing it at any x,y,z individual. I am talking about the principle.

You don't need to qoute me chauvinistic scholars who think they are absolutely right and everyone else absolutely wrong. How and why do you think muslims live in foreign western countries. Possibly to escape the clutches of mullahistic regimes and enjoy the freedoms present there. If secularism was against Islam 40 million muslims would not be living in Europe.

Islam and liberalism never have to be two opposing systems as proved in central asian states like Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and even Turkey. While our countries continue to barely produce the economic gains they are supposed to these countries are advancing far faster than us.

There will be far more conversion when religion is not imposed through the barrel of the gun. If you truly follow the Rashidun Caliphs you would know of the secularism of Ali and Umar one whose own court gave a decision against Ali over a shield and the other who refused to pray at a Christian church in fear it would be made a mosue by his followers.

As I said you interpret Islam very narrowly and this is the problem with muslims worldwide. You also are proud in your belief that you are correct. In reality none of us know enough about Islam. Allama Iqbal called for Ijtehad a debate where even the biggest scholars did not have the solid belief that they were right but were humble and started the debate with "I may be wrong"

 

[TMA]

You don't need to qoute me chauvinistic scholars who think they are absolutely right and everyone else absolutely wrong. How and why do you think muslims live in foreign western countries. Possibly to escape the clutches of mullahistic regimes and enjoy the freedoms present there. If secularism was against Islam 40 million muslims would not be living in Europe.

Islam and liberalism never have to be two opposing systems as proved in central asian states like Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and even Turkey. While our countries continue to barely produce the economic gains they are supposed to these countries are advancing far faster than us.

There will be far more conversion when religion is not imposed through the barrel of the gun. If you truly follow the Rashidun Caliphs you would know of the secularism of Ali and Umar one whose own court gave a decision against Ali over a shield and the other who refused to pray at a Christian church in fear it would be made a mosue by his followers.

As I said you interpret Islam very narrowly and this is the problem with muslims worldwide. You also are proud in your belief that you are correct. In reality none of us know enough about Islam. Allama Iqbal called for Ijtehad a debate where even the biggest scholars did not have the solid belief that they were right but were humble and started the debate with "I may be wrong"

I may be wrong however the Caliphate of the rightly guided Caliphs held that the Lord God most High was Sovereign. From what I understand of secularism is that the state/monarch/parliament/people are Sovereign. I may be wrong ,in today's Modern West and due to her pernicious influences most countries in the world hold this view and thus if a Muslim accepts this in his heart, he is guilty of Shirk.

 

[haviZsultan]

I may be wrong however the Caliphate of the rightly guided Caliphs held that the Lord God most High was Sovereign. From what I understand of secularism is that the state/monarch/parliament/people are Sovereign. I may be wrong ,in today's Modern West and due to her pernicious influences most countries in the world hold this view and thus if a Muslim accepts this in his heart, he is guilty of Shirk.

I disagree. The problem is we are gauging secularism by the narrow minded, chauvinistic way we interpret religion and this is a mistake. There has always been a popular undercurrent of secularism in muslim society which has not only been ignored but also demonized.

Holding that Allah is most sovereign is not equal to saying secularism is evil. In fact Allah advised us to think for ourselves and develop a system that truly suits us. I think you should read up on the Muta'zilites and Ibn Rushd. As I said secularism has always been there in the muslim world and I strongly believe the Rashidun Caliphs too were secularists.

Ultimately about adopting secularism the question resides with the Muslims worldwide. No one can force it on them but I know very well that modern day secularism in western states is based on Ibn Rushd or Averoes who is the founder of secularism. I sometimes wonder how the west adopted the best of us while we continued to wallow in religious infighting.

Peace out. This thread was made to denounce secularism. So I don't see where this debate is leading.

 

[TMA]

I disagree. The problem is we are gauging secularism by the narrow minded, chauvinistic way we interpret religion and this is a mistake. There has always been a popular undercurrent of secularism in muslim society which has not only been ignored but also demonized.

Holding that Allah is most sovereign is not equal to saying secularism is evil. In fact Allah advised us to think for ourselves and develop a system that truly suits us. I think you should read up on the Muta'zilites and Ibn Rushd. As I said secularism has always been there in the muslim world and I strongly believe the Rashidun Caliphs too were secularists.

Ultimately about adopting secularism the question resides with the Muslims worldwide. No one can force it on them but I know very well that modern day secularism in western states is based on Ibn Rushd or Averoes who is the founder of secularism. I sometimes wonder how the west adopted the best of us while we continued to wallow in religious infighting.

Peace out. This thread was made to denounce secularism. So I don't see where this debate is leading.

I don't think your view of secularism is the same view held by others.

My own is that secularism holds that other than the Lord most High is sovereign. This is cardinal to modern day secularism.

 

[Nike]

one doesn't need alcohol to kill themselves or harming other, everything around you can be used for suicide or criminal acts, even your keyboards

 

[Joe Shearer]

Do not compare muslims with your hindutvadi fanatics. Muslims don't slaughter pregnant women under the noses of chief ministers in broad day light and neither do they kill people for eating beef.

You are a typical liberal with a narrow world view based on flawed presumptions and a condescending attitude towards religion. You are making the mistake of conflating Islam with other religions. If you think that your neighbor salman who loiters in the bar and shares beer with you, is representative of 1.6 bn muslims , then you are in for a big surprise. RSS is your problem. DON'T project your country's extremism problem on the muslim world.



First learn about the religion you claim to profess. Ignorance is not an excuse for your diatribe in this day and age.

https://islamqa.info/en/20037

https://islamqa.info/en/11403

https://islamqa.info/en/96662

Yes Islam restricts freedom. Islam and liberalism are 2 different religion and way of life. DO you get that?

And no, none of our countries imposed Islam on others. Its preposterous that you keep on repeating such absurd lies. I think you keep Joseph Goebbels in high esteem.

You don't have to worry about islamic conversion. First gain basic knowledge about the religion you claim to profess without stressing yourself too much. Btw People are converting to Islam in mass throughout the globe. SO relax.

I interpret islamic text the way it was interpreted by the companions of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) , and the first generations and the scholars who followed them. I allow the Quran and Sunnah to speak for itself without trying to read in my biases and preconceived notions into them. I am a muslim NOT a liberal.



I am not saying that you should be forced NOT to drink . You are a non-muslim in a non-muslim land. This thread is about the secular liberal concept of freedom and what it promotes. Yes as a muslim I strongly desire for you to give up drinking because we are obliged to want good for others. There is also a very important islamic concept of promoting good and forbidding evil. Believe it or not , the west through the secular liberal world order , directly promotes their vices in the muslim world. Open dhaka tribune or express tribune and see for yourself what they promote here. Look at the statements of world leaders and their policies regarding the muslim world. Secularist in the muslim world force their beliefs on muslims. Pre-AKP turkey , central asian republics , pre-2011 tunisia are classic example of secular totalitarianism. Remember the hue and cry about brunei sharia law? One Australian reporter was dead worried about whether Bruneians would be allowed to drink alcohol , while the human rights groups were talking about "subjugation" of Bruneians under "medieval laws". US is linking human rights to TPP trade agreements. Its NOT muslims who force their beliefs on others but its non-muslims specially liberals who are the bigots.



Consuming alcohol is a major sin. A serious crime in Islam. But it doesn't make the consumer a non-muslim. Excommunication is NOT a play thing in Islam. Only scholars are allowed to excommunicate after a through interrogation and investigation. Its NOT the job of individual muslims. One of the major reasons why scholars around the globe unanimously condemn ISIS is because of their tendency to excommunicate muslims left and right. If you are interested: https://islamqa.info/en/85102

But yes if someone starts justifying alcohol consumption saying that islam allows it or openly starts rebuking Quran and sunnah because of his desires , then that person is out of the fold of islam. Note : I am talking in generality and not directing it at any x,y,z individual. I am talking about the principle.

I think this is the scene where, surrounded by enemies on all sides, @Luffy 500 jumps into the middle of the assembled and miscellaneous cut-throats who want to see what makes him tick, hurling shuriken furiously in all directions.

I disagree. The problem is we are gauging secularism by the narrow minded, chauvinistic way we interpret religion and this is a mistake. There has always been a popular undercurrent of secularism in muslim society which has not only been ignored but also demonized.

Holding that Allah is most sovereign is not equal to saying secularism is evil. In fact Allah advised us to think for ourselves and develop a system that truly suits us. I think you should read up on the Muta'zilites and Ibn Rushd. As I said secularism has always been there in the muslim world and I strongly believe the Rashidun Caliphs too were secularists.

Ultimately about adopting secularism the question resides with the Muslims worldwide. No one can force it on them but I know very well that modern day secularism in western states is based on Ibn Rushd or Averoes who is the founder of secularism. I sometimes wonder how the west adopted the best of us while we continued to wallow in religious infighting.

Peace out. This thread was made to denounce secularism. So I don't see where this debate is leading.

A fascinating post. Really interesting. Thanks.

 

[Butchcassidy]

God doesnt give a shit about these issues...
He/she has given u given u a brain and expects u to use it

 

[bobo6661]

Whenever i see OP posts i just think ...Im here and muslims stay where you are don't come near...
Anyway now i want some beer need to go to shop ... Voodka for later

 

[haviZsultan]

I think this is the scene where, surrounded by enemies on all sides, @Luffy 500 jumps into the middle of the assembled and miscellaneous cut-throats who want to see what makes him tick, hurling shuriken furiously in all directions.



A fascinating post. Really interesting. Thanks.

When the Muta'zilites came about they faced similar criticism. Always in Islamic history a larger conservative group has overshadowed the secularization of muslims. The muta'zilites were declared heretics, Pir Roshan faced stiff opposition to his idea of educating women from khushal khan khattak and other conservatives, Darah Shikoh could not rule the mughals and was punished for his liberal views. It is a shame that the religion that founded the first secular regime while Europe was wallowing in darkness and infighting is now viewed as the joke of the world. Its because of the ritualistic and rigid beliefs of the followers who refuse to acknowledge that secularism is the modern way of life-beneficial to all those that adopt it.