Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool

[DeusExAstra]

Yes, BTA-4 and DTW-125 are the same. Information about its length, muzzle velocity and other parameters are easily available online. It’s performance is pretty good for what it is, but it’s at the absolute maximum length that can be accommodated by the T72 style auto-loader found in Al-Khalid, VT-4 and other Chinese tanks, so if they want to further improve, they will need new widened auto-loaders.

There is a picture of DTC-10-125 and DTW-125 lying side by side, I’m sure you’ve seen it, and yes the length difference is about as much as you estimated. Can’t be sure about performance because we don’t know how similar the penetrators are.


Red effect is my friend, I’ve seen the video. 125-III does not have anywhere near that penetration, nor is it known to be a DU. It’s too short to have that sort of penetration. And the penetration values for all Chinese ammunition except 125-III are very easily available online.

The ammo Red is talking about in the video is some new ammo that China supposedly has with that sort of penetration, but it’s never been seen so far. So it’s unconfirmed if it exists. That being said, given Chinas recent technological prowess and the fact that they have to keep up with the west, it’s highly likely they’re working on or have already made such ammo but haven’t revealed it or brought it into service because they could be waiting for a new gun or other upgrades for ZTZ-99A. The few sources that exist about this ammo and it’s penetration values are the ones red used in his video.

Red has mistakenly called the ammo 125-III which we already know to exist and have seen many times.

About Red's video: my guess is they just shown 680mm of penetration like 680/0, meanwhile it was LOS, which even tungsten rod with lenght about ~590-600mm with muzzle velocity ~1800 m/s could reach. However, that's really good for such kind of APFSDS - it's really getting closer to 3БМ59, but it could be used in standard autoloaders (but I'm not pretty sure if it could be fired from any 125mm gun, except of ZPT98).

 

[Khanate]

That’s a very good development, the current engine is holding the AK back from a lot of things due to the weight limitations. Now they can put modern ERA on it and even give it a larger and redesigned turret, among many other things. And that’s all besides the massive mobility boost it’ll get.
It’s not sudden though, it’s been a long time coming. If it’s really the same engine from the VT4 (or even the smaller 1300HP version of it, given they both have a massive torque improvement over the current engine), then the AK is about to jump quite a few steps in capability (I might be internally fan-girling over this change because of how big it is.)

I hope they got ToT with it too. HIT really needs to start making engines itself.

Assuming the Chinese engine is picked for AK-2 with ToT, would HIT bring the engine to AK-1 or AK at some point in the future?

 

[iLION12345_1]

Assuming the Chinese engine is picked for AK-2 with ToT, would HIT bring the engine to AK-1 or AK at some point in the future?

It depends really. If the engine requires some sort of hull modification then they might be a little reluctant to do it right away or at all. The Chinese engine is larger than the 6TD2 in the Al-Khalid currently, however the engine bay should have enough space for a larger engine (just how large remains to be seen, hence hull modifications may be needed, specifically in regards to raising the engine deck as done in the VT-4)
Plus the AK-1s are too new and the engines bought too recently for them to put the Chinese engines in them right away.

What they could possibly do is replace the engines when the tanks eventually get rebuilt In the future, much like the T80UDs are being rebuilt right now, at that point the engines need to be replaced or rebuilt anyways and PA might consider it a better investment to upgrade them instead. On that note, PA was also experiment with upgrading the engines on the T80UDs, at least 2 and maybe 4 T80UDs were upgraded with 6TD-2E engines (same ones in Al-Khalid-1) instead of getting new 6TD-1s (the actual engine for the T80UD) during the recent rebuilds, these may be for testing purposes to see if such a replacement is feasible for the future.

 

[DeusExAstra]

About AK-1 gun: does it have any name? I mean, index, like 2A46M, ZPT-88, ZTP-98? Or it's just 125mm smoothbore gun?

 

[iLION12345_1]

About AK-1 gun: does it have any name? I mean, index, like 2A46M, ZPT-88, ZTP-98? Or it's just 125mm smoothbore gun?

It probably has an internal alphanumerical designation in the army and HIT however it doesn’t seem to have any official name or index. That’s Likely because it’s not the entire gun, it’s just the barrel and maybe mounting system (the breech and everything behind the barrel is the same as in ZPT-98/older Soviet guns). The barrel is used on Most Pakistani tanks including Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 as well as Pakistani VT-4s.

 

[DeusExAstra]

It probably has an internal alphanumerical designation in the army and HIT however it doesn’t seem to have any official name or index. That’s Likely because it’s not the entire gun, it’s just the barrel and maybe mounting system (the breech and everything behind the barrel is the same as in ZPT-98/older Soviet guns). The barrel is used on Most Pakistani tanks including Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 as well as Pakistani VT-4s.

Thank you! So, I guess, I will call it just 125mm smoothbore gun.

 

[luciferdd]

It probably has an internal alphanumerical designation in the army and HIT however it doesn’t seem to have any official name or index. That’s Likely because it’s not the entire gun, it’s just the barrel and maybe mounting system (the breech and everything behind the barrel is the same as in ZPT-98/older Soviet guns). The barrel is used on Most Pakistani tanks including Al-Zarrar, Type 85UG, Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-1 as well as Pakistani VT-4s.

Some Chinese professional military commentator had mentioned that Pakistan have one Pretty good 125mm gun for tank,it's really not easy for Pakistanis,Good job!

 

[iLION12345_1]

Some Chinese professional military commentator had mentioned that Pakistan have one Pretty good 125mm gun for tank,it's really not easy for Pakistanis,Good job!

Yes, that’s one specific area where Pakistan managed to take a step ahead. While the Al-Khalid was being made HIT and PA noticed that the KBA-3 (2A46M) and ZPT-98 both had certain features that the other didn’t, so they thought to combine the two. That was the easy part, the hard part was the metallurgy of it, due to Pakistans relations with NATO at the time, HIT was able to gain expertise on metallurgy and barrel-making, and set up its own facility with German and French help.

Hence the quality of the barrels (accuracy and barrel life) were at par with the ones being made by China, Russia and the west, but the gun had the features of both Russian (front-removable) and Chinese (dual-chromium plating) guns. Pakistan has continued to use its own barrels since, including on its VT4, as the normal VT-4 has the traditional Chinese design without the front-removable barrel.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Yes, that’s one specific area where Pakistan managed to take a step ahead. While the Al-Khalid was being made HIT and PA noticed that the KBA-3 (2A46M) and ZPT-98 both had certain features that the other didn’t, so they thought to combine the two. That was the easy part, the hard part was the metallurgy of it, due to Pakistans relations with NATO at the time, HIT was able to gain expertise on metallurgy and barrel-making, and set up its own facility with German and French help.

Hence the quality of the barrels (accuracy and barrel life) were at par with the ones being made by China, Russia and the west, but the gun had the features of both Russian (front-removable) and Chinese (dual-chromium plating) guns. Pakistan has continued to use its own barrels since, including on its VT4, as the normal VT-4 has the traditional Chinese design without the front-removable barrel.

In continuation of this post and the one I made here : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ah-class-frigates.733264/page-6#post-13550272

This metallurgy capability has helped HIT immensely over the years, one of the few local examples of proper Planning and ToT paying off in the long run. Not a single T90 or T72 barrel was made in india for the longest time (I believe they still have to import them from Russia, but now it’s more a matter of Russia refusing to give ToT rather than india not having the capability). Meanwhile HIT has made several thousand barrels at this point and continues to produce over a hundred every year, and when was the last time we heard of barrel or ammo malfunctions with the PA? That’s what happens when you learn steelwork from the Germans.

HIT has been able to re-arm M109s, M110s and several other artillery pieces without any further foreign help, and the capability has surely helped in developing the Upcoming Indigenous Towed Howitzer.

And to think Pakistan had so many more opportunities of this kind, worst still is the fact that Pakistan actually realized this, just a little too late, around the time the sanctions were already kicking in, first on China and then on Pakistan.

We had so many projects in the pipeline, HIT and others were making stuff because their designers wanted to, not because the army needed it, both in the air and on the ground, some on the sea as well. I believe we’re once again heading into an era where this will be possible, just with another set of countries this time (Turkey is the first to come to mind, China as always remains an option, but we must capture that marker before it becomes too self sufficient as well). I hope the relevant people at the top are taking note.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The gun was German initially I believe and we eventually got the tech from them to produce them at home.

 

[Inception-06]

The gun was German initially I believe and we eventually got the tech from them to produce them at home.

not really!

 

[GriffinsRule]

not really!

Ah had to dig a bit to jolt my memory. The first guns barrels were produced in France, not Germany. It wasnt until 2011 when the first barrel was produced in house using local steel. Before HIT just machined the guns from blanks provided by France.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Ah had to dig a bit to jolt my memory. The first guns barrels were produced in France, not Germany. It wasnt until 2011 when the first barrel was produced in house using local steel. Before HIT just machined the guns from blanks provided by France.

Gun blanks were improved from France and then machined at HIT before 2011. Germany helped set up the facility to produce our own guns.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Gun blanks were improved from France and then machined at HIT before 2011. Germany helped set up the facility to produce our own guns.

HIT has made tanks,IFVs ,APCs, 155mm towed Howitzer etc.They will definitely continue to improve their products.
Now what reasonable next step you think HIT should take to help ground forces of Pakistan along with improving their current products?

Simply putting,what should be the next achievable weapon HIT should work on?

 

[iLION12345_1]

HIT has made tanks,IFVs ,APCs, 155mm towed Howitzer etc.They will definitely continue to improve their products.
Now what reasonable next step you think HIT should take to help ground forces of Pakistan along with improving their current products?

Simply putting,what should be the next achievable weapon HIT should work on?

HIT needs innovation, it doesn’t matter what they create as long as they actually create something new. Pakistani forces needs new IFVs, new APCs, new artillery, new armored vechiles, new Recovery vechiles, MRAPs.
It’s not that there isn’t demand or that HIT doesn’t have the capability, it’s that we’re afraid of taking the baby step and starting R&D. The PA will already have a foreign option in service by the time HIT can develop anything, which discourages them from even trying. The Towed howitzer is a ray of hope in this regard.