Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool

[DeusExAstra]

In the base model Al Khalid, The gunner has a second generation thermal sight (Catherine FC) along with his normal day sight. The commander has an independent, stabilized and magnified day and night panoramic sight with second generation IIT (night vision) but no thermal sight of his own. He can access the gunners thermal from his screen.

In Newer Al khalids and Al khalid-I, the gunner has a third generation thermal sight (SAGEM MATIS). While the commander again has a similar independent panoramic sight as above but now with third generation IIT (night vision) and similar access to gunners thermals through his screen.

Al Khalid doesn’t have proper CITV in either case, but it has the next best thing. I believe Al Khalid is or was offered by HIT with a commanders independent thermal viewer (CITV) but the army did not buy it with that because they considered it an unnecessary cost, which makes sense considering the adversary doesn’t have any tanks with commanders independent sights at all.

CITV is however present on VT4P and is expected to be present on the upcoming new version of Al Khalid.

Thank you for the clarification!

 

[DeusExAstra]

I recently came across information about 125mm APFSDS "Naiza", there were some info about 550 RHA / 2 km and it's made from depleted uranium. I also know that China has export APFSDS 125-IIM, 220/66,4 at 2 km= ~275/60 at 2 km = 550mm RHA LOS, It confuses me a little Could it be 275/60 = ~550mm RHA LOS at 2 km for APFSDS "Naiza"?
So, could someone to clarify current 125mm APFSDS nomenclature Al Khalid using?

 

[Scorpiooo]

How many VT4 we received till now ? If anybody have info

 

[iLION12345_1]

I recently came across information about 125mm APFSDS "Naiza", there were some info about 550 RHA / 2 km and it's made from depleted uranium. I also know that China has export APFSDS 125-IIM, 220/66,4 at 2 km= ~275/60 at 2 km = 550mm RHA LOS, It confuses me a little Could it be 275/60 = ~550mm RHA LOS at 2 km for APFSDS "Naiza"?
So, could someone to clarify current 125mm APFSDS nomenclature Al Khalid using?

China has 4 common 125MM APFSDS rounds:

125-1 (Also made in Pakistan as APFSDS/T and used by Pakistan army on all its tanks apart from VT-4). It has 460MM penetration at 0 degrees at 2KM. (220MM/60 degrees).

125-IIM, which has 220MM/66.4 degrees at 2KM. This one is not used by Pakistan. Is longer than 125-I.

BTA-4 (export designation)/DTW-125 (Chinese designation). Sometimes falsely called 125-II. China uses this ammunition for ZTZ-96. Also used by Pakistan in VT4 (can be used in Al-Khalid, T80UD etc and will likely make its way to them in the future, however it’s not in use on those tanks yet). 220MM/68.5 degrees. Is the same length as 125-IIM.

125-III or DTC-10-125. Used only by China on ZTZ-99. Exact penetration is unknown but is higher than BTA-4, although likely not by too much. Is slightly longer than BTA-4.

Pakistani Naiza is a depleted uranium round, it has the exact same design and dimensions as Chinese 125-I (so it’s shorter than 125-IIM) but with a DU penetrator designed by Pakistan. China itself does not make or use DU ammunition. Pakistan made this ammo to supplement its existing 125-I and its currently the mainstay ammo for all Pakistani tanks apart from VT-4. It’s been in service since the early 2000s. Penetration is 550-580MM/0 degrees at 2KM (the numbers vary a little from source to source). So similar performance to 125-IIM, but similar dimensions to 125-I.

Pakistan also made an upgraded version of the 125-I ammo called APFSDS/T(I) by giving it the same casing style as BM-42 Mango APFSDS. It has the same penetrator, but better muzzle velocity and accuracy (and hence higher penetration). It was displayed at exhibitions, but I don’t know if it’s in service.

So currently the only two ammunition used on Al-Khalid are APFSDS/T (and maybe APFSDS/T(I) if Pakistan army ever bought those) and Naiza. BTA-4 can be fired from Al-Khalid so might be it’s future ammo.

 

[kursed]

So, have recently seen that Pakistan is getting engines for Al-Khalid from China. When did this change, weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?

 

[HRK]

So, have recently seen that Pakistan is getting engines for Al-Khalid and AK-1 from China. When did this change, weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?

are you sure the engines which you have seen are for AK-I ... ???

weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?

yes ...

 

[DeusExAstra]

China has 4 common 125MM APFSDS rounds:

125-1 (Also made in Pakistan as APFSDS/T and used by Pakistan army on all its tanks apart from VT-4). It has 460MM penetration at 0 degrees at 2KM. (220MM/60 degrees).

125-IIM, which has 220MM/66.4 degrees at 2KM. This one is not used by Pakistan. Is longer than 125-I.

BTA-4 (export designation)/DTW-125 (Chinese designation). Sometimes falsely called 125-II. China uses this ammunition for ZTZ-96. Also used by Pakistan in VT4 (can be used in Al-Khalid, T80UD etc and will likely make its way to them in the future, however it’s not in use on those tanks yet). 220MM/68.5 degrees. Is the same length as 125-IIM.

125-III or DTC-10-125. Used only by China on ZTZ-99. Exact penetration is unknown but is higher than BTA-4, although likely not by too much. Is slightly longer than BTA-4.

Pakistani Naiza is a depleted uranium round, it has the exact same design and dimensions as Chinese 125-I (so it’s shorter than 125-IIM) but with a DU penetrator designed by Pakistan. China itself does not make or use DU ammunition. Pakistan made this ammo to supplement its existing 125-I and its currently the mainstay ammo for all Pakistani tanks apart from VT-4. It’s been in service since the early 2000s. Penetration is 550-580MM/0 degrees at 2KM (the numbers vary a little from source to source). So similar performance to 125-IIM, but similar dimensions to 125-I.

Pakistan also made an upgraded version of the 125-I ammo called APFSDS/T(I) by giving it the same casing style as BM-42 Mango APFSDS. It has the same penetrator, but better muzzle velocity and accuracy (and hence higher penetration). It was displayed at exhibitions, but I don’t know if it’s in service.

So currently the only two ammunition used on Al-Khalid are APFSDS/T (and maybe APFSDS/T(I) if Pakistan army ever bought those) and Naiza. BTA-4 can be fired from Al-Khalid so might be it’s future ammo.

Thank you for clarification about ammo!

If BTA-4's are equal to DTW-125 onew, so, it's rod length should be about ~570mm with muzzle velocity ~1730 m/s, which means 220/68,5 are equal to ~300mm/60 at 2 km, pretty good for non-widened autoloader, I should say. Like 3BM60.

About DTC10-125, according to my sources it's rod is about ~590-600mm length, taking into account increased (for ~4%, counting at DTW-125 level as 100%) muzzle velocity to 1800 m/s, so it performance could be above up to 10-13,3%, which means about ~250mm/68,5 at 2 km = up to 340mm / 60 at 2 km (if we suppose it's speed decreasing about 3-3,5 % per kilometer).

 

[Bin Laden]

China itself does not make or use DU ammunition.

China itself definitely makes and uses DU ammunition just in secrecy.Specs of their ammo aren't openly available especially newer ones for type99a some of which supposedly even have around 850/800mm of penetration.

125-III is DU that enables it to have more penetration than previous version. Without increasing size.

This guy discussed them in his video:

(Note: Don't take it as a definite source)

 

[kursed]

are you sure the engines which you have seen are for AK-I ... ???


yes ...

My bad, for AK. But even then, AK's have Ukranian engines, so why Chinese?

 

[HRK]

My bad, for AK. But even then, AK's have Ukranian engines, so why Chinese?

yes this strange as baseline AK also have Ukranian engine .... as far as I know 1,500 hp Chinese engines was one of the possible option for AK-II which is believed to be under development from quite some time .... so if the engine is here in Pakistan then it mean the AK-II is entering into prototype stage ....

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

yes this strange as baseline AK also have Ukranian engine .... as far as I know 1,500 hp Chinese engines was one of the possible option for AK-II which is believed to be under development from quite some time .... so if the engine is here in Pakistan then it mean the AK-II is entering into prototype stage ....

IIRC the VT4's turbocharged engine left a good impression.

 

[iLION12345_1]

So, have recently seen that Pakistan is getting engines for Al-Khalid from China. When did this change, weren’t there engines on the tank Ukrainian?

are you sure the engines which you have seen are for AK-I ... ???


yes ...

yes this strange as baseline AK also have Ukranian engine .... as far as I know 1,500 hp Chinese engines was one of the possible option for AK-II which is believed to be under development from quite some time .... so if the engine is here in Pakistan then it mean the AK-II is entering into prototype stage ....

IIRC the VT4's turbocharged engine left a good impression.

If you’ve indeed seen Chinese engines meant for the AK, then those are meant for the next iteration of it.

Baseline AK uses Ukrainian 6TD-2 engines while the AK-1s use 6TD-2E engines. They’re about the same, the latter having better fuel economy and reliability. They’re not that good, AK was originally meant to have a British or German engine but due to sanctions they had to go with the only remaining option, the Ukrainian one. It was quite a compromise too. The 6TD series is very compact and has a good gearbox and average reliability, but it produces poor torque. That’s why the VT4 is so much more mobile compared to the Al-Khalid despite being heavier. AK series is saved by its comparatively light weight, otherwise it would be a rather sluggish tank with that engine (The T84 OPLOT-M uses that engine as well and is heavier than the VT-4, the results are not good to say the least). Add to that Ukraines slow delivery times due to their economic and political situation.

PA and HIT have been searching for an engine replacement for the AK for quite a while, they were considering a newer Ukrainian option at one point (maybe they still are), but it’s true that the VT4s engine left quite a positive impression on the PA after trials, so much so that they asked for just the engine from the tank after the first trials so they could put it in the AK (that’s before the improved version of the VT4 in service right now was trialed).

I believe the engines you saw are for the next iteration of the AK. HITs chairman confirmed in an interview that the next iteration of the AK would be coming soon and might share technology from the VT-4. I’m expecting CITVs, New engines (and consequently new ERA) as well as An RWS (we already saw that in a documentary). I believe I made a more detailed post on this entire topic a few pages back on this thread. We can probably expect to see this new AK after AK-1 deliveries are completed (which should be around 2024 if HIT works at max capacity).

 

[iLION12345_1]

Thank you for clarification about ammo!

If BTA-4's are equal to DTW-125 onew, so, it's rod length should be about ~570mm with muzzle velocity ~1730 m/s, which means 220/68,5 are equal to ~300mm/60 at 2 km, pretty good for non-widened autoloader, I should say. Like 3BM60.

About DTC10-125, according to my sources it's rod is about ~590-600mm length, taking into account increased (for ~4%, counting at DTW-125 level as 100%) muzzle velocity to 1800 m/s, so it performance could be above up to 10-13,3%, which means about ~250mm/68,5 at 2 km = up to 340mm / 60 at 2 km (if we suppose it's speed decreasing about 3-3,5 % per kilometer).

Yes, BTA-4 and DTW-125 are the same. Information about its length, muzzle velocity and other parameters are easily available online. It’s performance is pretty good for what it is, but it’s at the absolute maximum length that can be accommodated by the T72 style auto-loader found in Al-Khalid, VT-4 and other Chinese tanks, so if they want to further improve, they will need new widened auto-loaders.

There is a picture of DTC-10-125 and DTW-125 lying side by side, I’m sure you’ve seen it, and yes the length difference is about as much as you estimated. Can’t be sure about performance because we don’t know how similar the penetrators are.

China itself definitely makes and uses DU ammunition just in secrecy.Specs of their ammo aren't openly available especially newer ones for type99a some of which supposedly even have around 850/800mm of penetration.

125-III is DU that enables it to have more penetration than previous version. Without increasing size.

This guy discussed them in his video:

(Note: Don't take it as a definite source)

Red effect is my friend, I’ve seen the video. 125-III does not have anywhere near that penetration, nor is it known to be a DU. It’s too short to have that sort of penetration. And the penetration values for all Chinese ammunition except 125-III are very easily available online.

The ammo Red is talking about in the video is some new ammo that China supposedly has with that sort of penetration, but it’s never been seen so far. So it’s unconfirmed if it exists. That being said, given Chinas recent technological prowess and the fact that they have to keep up with the west, it’s highly likely they’re working on or have already made such ammo but haven’t revealed it or brought it into service because they could be waiting for a new gun or other upgrades for ZTZ-99A. The few sources that exist about this ammo and it’s penetration values are the ones red used in his video.

Red has mistakenly called the ammo 125-III which we already know to exist and have seen many times.

 

[kursed]

If you’ve indeed seen Chinese engines meant for the AK, then those are meant for the next iteration of it.

Baseline AK uses Ukrainian 6TD-2 engines while the AK-1s use 6TD-2E engines. They’re about the same, the latter having better fuel economy and reliability. They’re not that good, AK was originally meant to have a British or German engine but due to sanctions they had to go with the only remaining option, the Ukrainian one. It was quite a compromise too. The 6TD series is very compact and has a good gearbox and average reliability, but it produces poor torque. That’s why the VT4 is so much more mobile compared to the Al-Khalid despite being heavier. AK series is saved by its comparatively light weight, otherwise it would be a rather sluggish tank with that engine (The T84 OPLOT-M uses that engine as well and is heavier than the VT-4, the results are not good to say the least). Add to that Ukraines slow delivery times due to their economic and political situation.

PA and HIT have been searching for an engine replacement for the AK for quite a while, they were considering a newer Ukrainian option at one point (maybe they still are), but it’s true that the VT4s engine left quite a positive impression on the PA after trials, so much so that they asked for just the engine from the tank after the first trials so they could put it in the AK (that’s before the improved version of the VT4 in service right now was trialed).

I believe the engines you saw are for the next iteration of the AK. HITs chairman confirmed in an interview that the next iteration of the AK would be coming soon and might share technology from the VT-4. I’m expecting CITVs, New engines (and consequently new ERA) as well as An RWS (we already saw that in a documentary). I believe I made a more detailed post on this entire topic a few pages back on this thread. We can probably expect to see this new AK after AK-1 deliveries are completed (which should be around 2024 if HIT works at max capacity).

Yep. The engines are meant for AK and have shared evidence of it with @Bilal Khan (Quwa). Just couldn’t understand the sudden change.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Yep. The engines are meant for AK and have shared evidence of it with @Bilal Khan (Quwa). Just couldn’t understand the sudden change.

That’s a very good development, the current engine is holding the AK back from a lot of things due to the weight limitations. Now they can put modern ERA on it and even give it a larger and redesigned turret, among many other things. And that’s all besides the massive mobility boost it’ll get.
It’s not sudden though, it’s been a long time coming. If it’s really the same engine from the VT4 (or even the smaller 1300HP version of it, given they both have a massive torque improvement over the current engine), then the AK is about to jump quite a few steps in capability (I might be internally fan-girling over this change because of how big it is.)

I hope they got ToT with it too. HIT really needs to start making engines itself.