Ajai Shukla: Making the Tejas fly

[sancho]

@sandy_3126

Very interesting points and I fully agree to you that LCA suffers from too many players. ADA has barely shown any positive points throughout the whole LCA development, especially in regard to management of the project. Getting DRDO as one of the prime developers was a major failure as well, they should have been a co-developer for avionics, but engine and radar developments should have been made as seperated projects.
I am not too sure about HALs design capabilities, especially since most of their aircrafts designs suffer from drag and weight issues as well, but that seems to be a general Indian problem. However, I am sure that HAL would have done this project far better and based on their experience with Dhruv development.

The order of 300 fighters won't come anymore, because Rafale is a done deal and the LCA project is too delayed to keep producing it for decades, I would be even surprised if we see more than 200 LCAs in IAF.

 

[sancho]

@sandy_3126

Very interesting points and I fully agree to you that LCA suffers from too many players. ADA has barely shown any positive points throughout the whole LCA development, especially in regard to management of the project. Getting DRDO as one of the prime developers was a major failure as well, they should have been a co-developer for avionics, but engine and radar developments should have been made as seperated projects.
I am not too sure about HALs design capabilities, especially since most of their aircrafts designs suffer from drag and weight issues as well, but that seems to be a general Indian problem. However, I am sure that HAL would have done this project far better and based on their experience with Dhruv development.

The order of 300 fighters won't come anymore, because Rafale is a done deal and the LCA project is too delayed to keep producing it for decades, I would be even surprised if we see more than 200 LCAs in IAF.

 

[MilSpec]

@sandy_3126

Very interesting points and I fully agree to you that LCA suffers from too many players. ADA has barely shown any positive points throughout the whole LCA development, especially in regard to management of the project. Getting DRDO as one of the prime developers was a major failure as well, they should have been a co-developer for avionics, but engine and radar developments should have been made as seperated projects.
I am not too sure about HALs design capabilities, especially since most of their aircrafts designs suffer from drag and weight issues as well, but that seems to be a general Indian problem. However, I am sure that HAL would have done this project far better and based on their experience with Dhruv development.

The order of 300 fighters won't come anymore, because Rafale is a done deal and the LCA project is too delayed to keep producing it for decades, I would be even surprised if we see more than 200 LCAs in IAF.

Non-existent research in Metrology, material science, lack of thermodynamic data bank systems for phase diagrams which leads to zero break through in material design technology. But again these are all the traits of developing countries.

 

[zaxcolix]

Vendor development: Historically manufacturing technology base has been very poor in India. HAL has been a pioneer in co-development with vendor's to indigenise imported russian system. Air delivery systems with KPCL is one of the examples that have replaced every russian system in India. Similar examples in ground system, refuelers, NC systems, gauges, carbide cutting tools, material research, aircraft grade al with hindalco, indigenisation of orbital riveting syste, development of jo-bolt tools are few examples that come to my mind from my tenure in HAL. I would like to know what are the basis for your allegations wrt to vendors

I cant believe you mentioned Al from hindalco you forgot to mention the soap, toilent cleaners, paper, pen, rice, potato etc which are provided by HAL vendors.

I was talking about air qualified equipment's that actually goes inside an aircraft !

My 'allegations' come from the unfortunate experience of actually working with HAL and mandated by them to provide an equipment and after successfully providing it, getting it rejected for political reasons without getting paid for the effort. The whole venture was such a huge loss for the company and the experience was so disgusting that it was decided never to work for HAL again...ever. (We are still in aerospace though...no thanks to HAL)

Research Funding: @zaxcolix: I have no issues with DRDO getting funding... let them get more if they want, I will not disclose the areas of research but in my own own experience more than 26 big ticket research proposals were denied to HAL. As far as research funding of HAL by it's own profits, again cannot be done because your hawks from MoD and IAF in planning commission who are also part of the board of director for HAL also allot the funding for operations, where research, Rev engg are big No No.

Strange then it developed Dhruv...... Its all about leadership and conviction and belief. BTW ..there are enough vendors in India who can make some of the 'big ticket' items ...but you can bet you bottom dollar that HAL will never let them to preserve their monopoly.

I am not sure if you are aware of the working of MoD and IAF. If you were you would understand. Anyways if that is your opinion ... good for you...

Your silly condescending statement apart .....don't think this needs a reply.

I have been a design/test engineer for 8 years working in composites, You can conceive the most brilliant design and tooling on work stations and simulations, but If you do not know about manufacturing practices and production design, none of that will translate into anything valuable. That exactly is the problem with ADA and assoc. As far HAL's manufacturing capabilities are concerned, I have the greatest respect for them, and that's where I will leave it.

I am not blaming ADA for discrepency in design or mismanagement, I am just saying they are not competent to manage the project as the lead, If IAF wants LCA MK2 as a viable aircraft, they need to kick out ADA.

...and I know a few things about Program Management in Aerospace. Translation from R&D to production is a problem in every field from medicines, automobiles, computers.....even Toilet seats & ceramic goods. That is a pretty pathetic excuse.

Thankfully IAF does not have any say in keeping or throwing out ADA.....anyway you mentioned you worked for HAL so your sentiment is understandable. HAL employees does have a good time in HAL

 

[zaxcolix]

Non-existent research in Metrology, material science, lack of thermodynamic data bank systems for phase diagrams which leads to zero break through in material design technology. But again these are all the traits of developing countries.

I thought you said 'research' by DRDO is a 'black hole' for poor Indian tax payers ?

 

[MilSpec]

I cant believe you mentioned Al from hindalco you forgot to mention the soap, toilent cleaners, paper, pen, rice, potato etc which are provided by HAL vendors.
I was talking about air qualified equipment's that actually goes inside an aircraft !

development Phase diagram databank for development AL alloy stamping which no longer need to imported from russia turned savings of approx 1700cr's, if you equate that with potatoes and paper... good for you

My 'allegations' come from the unfortunate experience of actually working with HAL and mandated by them to provide an equipment and after successfully providing it, getting it rejected for political reasons without getting paid for the effort. The whole venture was such a huge loss for the company and the experience was so disgusting that it was decided never to work for HAL again...ever. (We are still in aerospace though...no thanks to HAL)

Equipment is usually rejected for substandard quality or improper specs;first time hearing political reasons. So you venom seems to be coming from being rejected by purchasing dept.

Strange then it developed Dhruv...... Its all about leadership and conviction and belief. BTW ..there are enough vendors in India who can make some of the 'big ticket' items ...but you can bet you bottom dollar that HAL will never let them to preserve their monopoly.

Thats a government issue, HAL doesn't have lobbyist sitting in parliament and neither can bribe politicians. You have a problem with HAL's monopoly, take it up with the government. surprising you have no issues with other PSU's monopoly in thier respective field.

...and I knew a few things about Program Management in Aerospace.

but your rhetoric suggests otherwise

Thankfully IAF does not have any say in keeping or throwing out ADA.....anyway you mentioned you worked for HAL so your sentiment is understandable. HAL employees does have a good time in HAL

That I agree, I did have a great time in HAL, learnt more than I did in my masters program in Caltech. As far as your jibe for my association with the company is concerned, I will keep defending it from baseless remarks of people and pot shots of bitter vendors who lack the understanding of ground realities of LCA project, but want to blame HAL for every fault.

 

[MilSpec]

I thought you said 'research' by DRDO is a 'black hole' for poor Indian tax payers ?

SAIL, Hindalco, NALCO, NMDC, HCL, BHP&VL, HECL, BALCO, HZL.

 

[zaxcolix]

development Phase diagram databank for development AL alloy stamping which no longer need to imported from russia turned savings of approx 1700cr's, if you equate that with potatoes and paper... good for you

....HAL buys AL because it has no choice If you are desperate enough to credit HAL for something, I guess this is a good enough way to do it.

Equipment is usually rejected for substandard quality or improper specs;first time hearing political reasons. So you venom seems to be coming from being rejected by purchasing dept.

.....I guess HAL is too good for us . Which is why we have compromised and now work with Boeing & Airbus.

Thats a government issue, HAL doesn't have lobbyist sitting in parliament and neither can bribe politicians. You have a problem with HAL's monopoly, take it up with the government. surprising you have no issues with other PSU's monopoly in thier respective field.

I was not aware others PSU's were discussed in this thread ..deflection ?

but your rhetoric suggests otherwise

...I suppose I will just have to live with the ignominy of not getting the approval of an ex HAL employee

That I agree, I did have a great time in HAL, learnt more than I did in my masters program in Caltech. As far as your jibe for my association with the company is concerned, I will keep defending it from baseless remarks of people and pot shots of bitter vendors who lack the understanding of ground realities of LCA project, but want to blame HAL for every fault.

....looks like you wasted your time and money at Caltech. Do defend HAL...its needs all the defenders it can muster .

PS: I don't own the company to be bitter about anything I get paid for doing what I do irrespective of who we work for, but personally I would never want to work with HAL again. Its rather sad you had to get personal to justify you stand.

 

[xyxmt]

Nice idea from the citizen of a country who can only assemble their "joint" built fighter ..

oh you talking about the country who kicked your *** inside your country and you cant do anything, well at least you make good designs

by the way just for my information, where is kevari engine being developed and tested?
where was berhamos developed, who is building your carrier, where are all your joint project being designed and built...speak from your mouth please

 

[kurup]

oh you talking about the country who kicked your *** inside your country and you cant do anything, well at least you make good designs

From a country which gets it's a$$ kicked every single day .

But you sure are doing something ....whining.

And you do assemble good.

 

[MilSpec]

....HAL buys AL because it has no choice If you are desperate enough to credit HAL for something, I guess this is a good enough way to do it.

the point was vendor development. HAL co-developed the AL alloy with the "local" vendor for mammoth savings. If you want to ignore that, your choice.

.....I guess HAL is too good for us . Which is why we have compromised and now work with Boeing & Airbus.

Just because your company had some dispute with HAl doesn't mean you can malign the entire management of HAL

I was not aware others PSU's were discussed in this thread ..deflection ?

How am I Deflecting, i was very clear this is not an HAL issue, we dont have lobbyist sitting in parliament. Take your complains to MoD.

...I suppose I will just have to live with the ignominy of not getting the approval of an ex HAL employee

At one point of time I had some limited assoc with the LCA project, I expressed my opinions, which are in stark contrast of what Ajai shukla wrote. People love to lambast HAL for the shortcommings of ADA and it's cronies. It is imperative to know both sides of the story to get a proper narrative. Your contentions with HAL IMO is of localized issues and doesn't reflect the broader situation. Discrediting HAL has become a hobby for every defence writer in this country without knowing the ground realities of LCA project.

....looks like you wasted your time and money at Caltech. Do defend HAL...its needs all the defenders it can muster .

The point was to indicate the learning experience.

PS: I don't own the company to be bitter about anything I get paid for doing what I do irrespective of who we work for, but personally I would never want to work with HAL again. Its rather sad you had to get personal to justify you stand.

"Translation from R&D to production is a problem in every field from medicines, automobiles, computers.....even Toilet seats & ceramic goods. That is a pretty pathetic excuse.

If anyone comes along and says production design for a production of fighter jet and toilet seats are equatable issues, what else can you say. Hence I will leave this discussion with a few queries.

In all looks like you have better understanding "Program Management in Aerospace", hence please do enlighten me on few of the parameters.

Status of avionics package for LCA tejas MK1/MK2, Why has not a single component specification arrived to the "manufacturing contractor" HAL Korwa or Hyderabad division, ?

Why hasn't ADA/DRDO still not frozen it's MMR Radar and production details to BEL?

Why hasn't ADA/DRDO still not re-configured Landing gear for N-LCA?

Why are we importing the RWR and SPS from Elbiet?

P.S. Now all of the above seem to potato chips issue for ADA .... riight?

 

[kurup]

by the way just for my information, where is kevari engine being developed and tested?
where was berhamos developed, who is building your carrier, where are all your joint project being designed and built...speak from your mouth please

Kaveri is developed in India . Only tested in in Russia becuse we dont have the facility .

Brahmos is completely developed and tested in India .

We never told vikky was an Indian product.

And tell me where is JF17 developed and tested . Show us a single pakistani contribution in that . All you are doing is just assembling a chinese jet.

And next time take your head out of your behind and use it to write something.

 

[zaxcolix]

the point was vendor development. HAL co-developed the AL alloy with the "local" vendor for mammoth savings. If you want to ignore that, your choice.
Just because your company had some dispute with HAl doesn't mean you can malign the entire management of HAL

IAF has also developed vendors by buying jet fuel from Indian Oil .......my opinion about HAL is formed by interacting with IAF, IN, CEMILAC, DGAQA, Indian vendors, Boeing, Airbus, lots of HAL employees and ex-employees (you cant work in Indian aerospace industry without bumping into HAL ex-employees...thanks to their monopoly in this space) non of whom had anything good to say about HAL. (HAL employees are happy after the pay commission )

How am I Deflecting, i was very clear this is not an HAL issue, we dont have lobbyist sitting in parliament. Take your complains to MoD.

HAL & BEL have enough lobby power in MoD/IAF/politicans...its a different thing they use it to ensure private players are kept out. (..its changing now)

In all looks like you have better understanding "Program Management in Aerospace", hence please do enlighten me on few of the parameters.

Status of avionics package for LCA tejas MK1/MK2, Why has not a single component specification arrived to the "manufacturing contractor" HAL Korwa or Hyderabad division, ?

Why hasn't ADA/DRDO still not frozen it's MMR Radar and production details to BEL?

Why hasn't ADA/DRDO still not re-configured Landing gear for N-LCA?

Why are we importing the RWR and SPS from Elbiet?

P.S. Now all of the above seem to potato chips issue for ADA .... riight?

...you seem to think I am a spokesperson for ADA.

If HAL has accepted an order from the MoD/IAF then it is obligated to collect all necessary information for building the aircraft. If it hasn't then it just goes to show the shoddy way HAL operates. Thank you for proving my point.

I guess that is HAL 'Program Management' admired by its ex-employees and 'fans'.

btw..what is the 'status' of the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) being developed by HAL? Last I heard one of your director who used to be a test pilot for IJT killed himself after being humiliated by HAL chairman in front of his colleagues.

 

[MilSpec]

If HAL has accepted an order from the MoD/IAF then it is obligated to collect all necessary information for building the aircraft. If it hasn't then it just goes to show the shoddy way HAL operates. Thank you for proving my point.

I guess that is HAL 'Program Management' admired by its ex-employees and 'fans'.

This is pointless, The Nodal design agency hasn't completed the work assigned and you are blaming HAL. No point in trying to have any constructive discussion where preconceived notions dominates simple logic.

 

[zaxcolix]

This is pointless, The Nodal design agency hasn't completed the work assigned and you are blaming HAL. No point in trying to have any constructive discussion where preconceived notions dominates simple logic.

...if I was every to negotiate and accept an order to build something without having all the relevant details with me, I would be fired from my job. Funny thing is ...this is standard practice with HAL. They first accept any order and then go around trying to figure out how to execute it.